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The Unitary Executive Branch

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 May, 2006 01:21 pm
Quote:
Cheney exempts his own office from reporting on classified material

BY MARK SILVA
Chicago Tribune

WASHINGTON - As the Bush administration has dramatically accelerated the classification of information as "top secret" or "confidential," one office is refusing to report on its annual activity in classifying documents: the office of Vice President Dick Cheney.

A standing executive order, strengthened by President Bush in 2003, requires all agencies and "any other entity within the executive branch" to provide an annual accounting of their classification of documents. More than 80 agencies have collectively reported to the National Archives that they made 15.6 million decisions in 2004 to classify information, nearly double the number in 2001, but Cheney continues to insist he is exempt.

Explaining why the vice president has withheld even a tally of his office's secrecy when such offices as the National Security Council routinely report theirs, a spokeswoman said Cheney is "not under any duty" to provide it.

That is only one way the Bush administration, from its opening weeks in 2001, has asserted control over information. By keeping secret so many directives and actions, the administration has precluded the public - and often members of Congress - from knowing about some of the most significant decisions and acts of the White House.

In the aftermath of the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, the administration has based much of its need for confidentiality on the imperative of protecting national security at a time of war. Yet experts say Bush and his closest advisers demonstrated their proclivity for privacy well before Sept. 11:

Starting in the early weeks of his administration with a move to protect the papers of former presidents, Bush has clamped down on the release of government documents. That includes tougher standards for what the public can obtain under the Freedom of Information Act and the creation of a broad new category of "sensitive but unclassified information."

Not only has the administration reported a dramatic increase in the number of documents deemed "top secret," "secret" or "confidential," the president has authorized the reclassification of information that was public for years. An audit by a National Archives office recently found that the CIA acted in a "clearly inappropriate" way regarding about one-third of the documents it reclassified last year.

The White House has resisted efforts by Congress to gain information, starting with a White House energy task force headed by Cheney and continuing with the president's secret authorization of warrantless surveillance of people inside the United States suspected of communicating with terrorists abroad. Sen. Arlen Specter, R-Pa., recently threatened to withhold funding for the surveillance program unless the White House starts providing information.

The administration has withheld the identities of, and accusations against, detainees held in its war on terror, and it censored the findings of a joint House-Senate committee that investigated the events leading to Sept. 11, including a 27-page blackout of Saudi Arabia's alleged connections to the terrorists.

While maintaining a disciplined and virtually leakproof White House, senior members of the administration have been accused of leaking information to punish a critic of the war in Iraq. The grand jury testimony of a former White House aide reportedly asserts that Bush himself selectively authorized release of once-classified information to counter criticism.

A tension has always existed between the presidency and the public, with concerns about security and confidentiality competing with the public's right to know about its government. But the balance seems to be tipping toward secrecy in a more pronounced way than at any time in the past three decades.

"Our democratic principles require that the American people be informed of the activities of their government," Bush said in his executive order on classified information. "Nevertheless, throughout our history, the national defense has required certain information be maintained in confidence in order to protect our citizens."

Bush and Cheney have made it clear they are intent on reclaiming presidential powers lost by Bush predecessors. That erosion of power started with Richard Nixon's losing fight over the privacy of his papers after the Watergate scandal and continued through Bill Clinton's impeachment.

"This is a presidency in which, from the start, there were important forces to accentuate the executive prerogative, and all of that became more important after 9/11," said Fred Greenstein, professor emeritus of politics at Princeton University and author of "The Presidential Difference: Leadership Style from FDR to George W. Bush."

White House spokeswoman Dana Perino maintains that the White House has "struck the right balance" between national security and openness.

"We need to ensure that national security information is properly classified and protected," Perino said. "We endeavor to make as much information available to the public as possible. ... We are accountable to the American people. The president doesn't want it any other way."

But to some, the administration's penchant for secrecy has curtailed crucial public debate.

"It determines the character of our political system," said Steven Aftergood, director of the Project on Government Secrecy at the Federation of American Scientists. "Is it a political process that is open to wide-ranging debate, or is it more like a closed circle of elite decision-makers? I think we've learned, often to our disappointment, that it's the latter."

To others, the insistence that information considered important be kept confidential is part of the Bush White House's insistence on discipline and order.

"I really think they think of it in terms of good governance," said James Carafano, senior fellow for national security and homeland security at the Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank. "It's a very corporate style of leadership."

Bush has a partner - some say mentor - in Cheney, who from the start resisted all efforts to disclose the inner workings of a task force devising the administration's energy policy. He defeated an unprecedented lawsuit by the Government Accountability Office, the investigative arm of Congress, to unveil that task force and carried his fight successfully to the Supreme Court.

And as the administration has sealed an increasing number of documents as secret or sensitive, and cut the number of documents being declassified each year, the refusal of Cheney's office to report on the number of its decisions stands out.

A directive from the National Archives, acting under the authority of the executive order bolstered by Bush in March 2003, requires all agencies and executive branch units to report annually on their classification and declassification of files.

Cheney's office maintains that its dual executive and legislative duties make it unique, as the vice president also serves as president of the Senate.

"This matter has been carefully reviewed," said spokeswoman Lea Anne McBride. "It has been determined that the reporting requirement does not apply to the office of the vice president."

To many, the administration's acts are part of a broader campaign to boost the powers of the presidency.

"It's pretty clear that there were certain players in the administration, including the vice president, who felt that the executive branch had not fully exerted all of its constitutional authorities," said David Walker, the U.S. comptroller general.

Walker, as head of the GAO, filed that office's only lawsuit against a government agency in April 2002 as it sought to open the records of Cheney's energy task force. A federal judge dismissed the suit as a struggle between the executive and legislative branches that courts were not empowered to adjudicate.

The White House, in asserting a more powerful executive office, believed "that some of its authorities and privileges had eroded through the years and wanted to redraw that line," Walker said. "We just happened to be one of many situations that they chose to try to test."

Organizations including the Sierra Club also carried the fight to the Supreme Court, which in 2004 voted 7-2 to uphold "a paramount necessity of protecting the executive branch from vexatious litigation" and returned the case to an appeals court, which last year ruled in favor of the White House.

The administration started asserting its power over paper soon after Bush's inauguration by placing a hold on the release of the records of former presidents - beginning with the papers of Ronald Reagan's presidency - and later issuing an executive order granting past presidents a veto over releases.

The Presidential Records Act of 1978, enacted in response to Watergate-era court battles over Nixon's papers, had placed a hold on release of "confidential communications ... between the president and his advisers" for 12 years after the conclusion of a presidency.

The order Bush issued in 2001 enabled former presidents, or their representatives if the president has died, to screen any request for records and withhold ones considered "privileged." It gave the same authority to vice presidents.

Before the end of its first year, the administration also reversed a long-standing policy on how agencies respond to public requests for records under the Freedom of Information Act.

Clinton's attorney general, Janet Reno, had insisted on "a presumption of disclosure." But Bush's first attorney general, John Ashcroft, arguing that "no leader can operate effectively without confidential advice and counsel," implored all agencies to disclose information requested by the public "only after full and deliberate consideration ... of the privacy interests that could be implicated."

The administration's policy, stated by Ashcroft in an Oct. 12, 2001, memo, had been in the drafting for months.

But after the Sept. 11 attacks, and amid growing concern about information that terrorists might obtain from the government, then-Bush Chief of Staff Andrew Card issued an order in March 2002 demanding that any "Sensitive but Unclassified Information" related to homeland security be released only after careful consideration "on a case-by-case basis."

That has led to a proliferation of documents stamped "Sensitive but Unclassified" or simply "For Office Use Only," according to experts who track government record-keeping.

The Bush administration is "objectively more secretive" than its recent predecessors, Aftergood said.

"Anyone who calls or writes a government agency for information encounters barriers that were just not there a decade ago," he said. "The government is undergoing a mutation in which we are gradually shifting into another kind of government in which executive authority is supreme and significantly unchecked."


http://rawstory.com/showarticle.php?src=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mercurynews.com%2Fmld%2Fmercurynews%2Fnews%2Fpolitics%2F14462039.htm%3Ftemplate%3DcontentModules%2Fprintstory.jsp

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 May, 2006 02:01 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
Debra_Law wrote:
georgeob1 wrote:
Similar things were said about Thomas jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, FDR, Harry Truman, and LBJ.


Provide verifiable information to substantiate your statement and then tell us your point in making the statement.


Do the same for your "Bush has indeed turned our country into a dictatorship" remark.


Feel free to read the thread before you assert that Deb hasn't done exactly that.

With some help, of course.

Cycloptichorn


Dictators are known for having absolute rule, but such is not the case with Bush. But tell me -- in your opinion -- how many of our other elected presidents were dictators? Andrew Jackson? Lincoln? Teddy or Franklin Roosevelt? Truman? Nixon? Please educate me, Cyclops.

No, Debra -- with your helpful assistance -- has contributed a lot of hyperbolic paranoia, and little else.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 May, 2006 02:10 pm
Quote:
Dictators are known for having absolute rule


Hardly. Dictators attempt absolute rule. It works with a varying degree of success, depending on how tight a hold they have on the country.

Bush has taken more steps to transform our system of governance into a dictatorship than any previous American president. Though other presidents have in the past asserted powers beyond the typical scope of Constitutional definitions, none have asserted that they are above the law, and certainly none have flouted congressional authority in the fashion that the Bush executive branch has done.

Quote:
No, Debra -- with your helpful assistance -- has contributed a lot of hyperbolic paranoia, and little else.


You have no substantial argument justifying Bush's actions at all, and so resort to calling Deb and I 'paranoid.' As time goes by, you will see quite a bit of the same from your fellow Republicans; but it isn't paranoia in the slightest, rather, patriotism and a desire to see the Rule of Law continue in our country, for everyone.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 May, 2006 02:35 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
Dictators are known for having absolute rule


Hardly. Dictators attempt absolute rule. It works with a varying degree of success, depending on how tight a hold they have on the country.


Debra claims Bush has "turned our country into a dictatorship," and you agree. So is Bush's rule a "dictatorship" or merely an "attempted dictatorship," in your estimation? What has Bush done vis-a-vis the Judicial Branch to further his Dictatorship?

Quote:
Bush has taken more steps to transform our system of governance into a dictatorship than any previous American president.


But according to DL, he has already made it a dictatorship, and you agreed with her assessment. Which is it: Has he already converted the US to a dictatorship, or is he merely taking steps to effect that transformation?

Quote:
Though other presidents have in the past asserted powers beyond the typical scope of Constitutional definitions, none have asserted that they are above the law, and certainly none have flouted congressional authority in the fashion that the Bush executive branch has done.


I don't see that Bush has asserted he is "above the law," but I agree with Bush that he need not follow any laws that are unconstitutional. I know you and I disagree on that point.

Quote:
Quote:
No, Debra -- with your helpful assistance -- has contributed a lot of hyperbolic paranoia, and little else.


You have no substantial argument justifying Bush's actions at all, and so resort to calling Deb and I 'paranoid.' As time goes by, you will see quite a bit of the same from your fellow Republicans; but it isn't paranoia in the slightest, rather, patriotism and a desire to see the Rule of Law continue in our country, for everyone.

Cycloptichorn


Of course I have arguments in support of Bush's actions, and you've seen me make them on your "America ... Spying on Americans" thread. I don't have a strong urge to replicate them on every thread you choose to start or resurrect that pertains to this topic.

And I thought you believed patriotism was overrated, or do I have you confused with most other leftists?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 May, 2006 02:52 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
Dictators are known for having absolute rule


Hardly. Dictators attempt absolute rule. It works with a varying degree of success, depending on how tight a hold they have on the country.


Debra claims Bush has "turned our country into a dictatorship," and you agree. So is Bush's rule a "dictatorship" or merely an "attempted dictatorship," in your estimation? What has Bush done vis-a-vis the Judicial Branch to further his Dictatorship?

He's found an effective way to sidestep the judicial branch and the legistlative branch simultaneously.

By using his 'signing statements' to exempt himself from any responsibility to the Legistlative branch, Bush has effectively removed any control Congress has over him.

Becuase it is quite difficult to get the SC to rule on a case where there is no actual defendant who can claim harm, Bush essentially gets a free pass from the Judicial Branch. Unless Congress steps up and holds Bush accountable for his actions, it is highly unlikely that the Judicial branch will take action against Bush.

Also, Bush has effectively siezed control of the Justice Department by installing Alberto Gonzales as AG; his own personal lawyer. AG AG is supposed the represent the interests of the people of the US, but it is clear that he represents the interests of Bush far more.


Quote:
Bush has taken more steps to transform our system of governance into a dictatorship than any previous American president.


But according to DL, he has already made it a dictatorship, and you agreed with her assessment. Which is it: Has he already converted the US to a dictatorship, or is he merely taking steps to effect that transformation?

He is taking steps to do so, by increasing the power of the Executive Branch far beyond any reasonable interpretation.

Quote:
Though other presidents have in the past asserted powers beyond the typical scope of Constitutional definitions, none have asserted that they are above the law, and certainly none have flouted congressional authority in the fashion that the Bush executive branch has done.


I don't see that Bush has asserted he is "above the law," but I agree with Bush that he need not follow any laws that are unconstitutional. I know you and I disagree on that point.

Bush doesn't have the right to decide whether or not a law is constitutional or not. He isn't a constitutional scholar. I have yet to see you point out where Bush derives the right to do this.

You highlight an excellent point: Bush's tactic has been to find a friendly legal scholar or AG employee to write up a bullshit paper declaring laws impacting on the Executive Branch to be 'unconstitutional' and then proceeds to act as if they are in fact not constitutional. This is a critical step in Bush side-stepping the Judicial Branch, because in many cases it is difficult to hold Bush to task for doing so due to the nature of the court system and the time involved. It is quite possible that even if a case challenging the constitutionality of Bush's 'signing statements' were allowed to go forward without the State Secrets act being invoked, it would take years before the SC could see the case, and during that whole time Bush runs around breaking the law willy-nilly.

The truth really is that it is the job of Congress to hold Bush accountable, and that will never happen while the Republicans control the place; they are far more beholden to the Party structure than ancient ideas such as truth, justice, or the Law.


Quote:
Quote:
No, Debra -- with your helpful assistance -- has contributed a lot of hyperbolic paranoia, and little else.


You have no substantial argument justifying Bush's actions at all, and so resort to calling Deb and I 'paranoid.' As time goes by, you will see quite a bit of the same from your fellow Republicans; but it isn't paranoia in the slightest, rather, patriotism and a desire to see the Rule of Law continue in our country, for everyone.

Cycloptichorn


Of course I have arguments in support of Bush's actions, and you've seen me make them on your "America ... Spying on Americans" thread. I don't have a strong urge to replicate them on every thread you choose to start or resurrect that pertains to this topic.

And I thought you believed patriotism was overrated, or do I have you confused with most other leftists?


Patriotism is over-rated. I should be focusing my energies on space research, or making the world better for everyone. Instead I just seem to keep circling back to the affairs of my own country. It is slightly troublesome Confused

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 May, 2006 03:50 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
Dictators are known for having absolute rule


Hardly. Dictators attempt absolute rule. It works with a varying degree of success, depending on how tight a hold they have on the country.


Debra claims Bush has "turned our country into a dictatorship," and you agree. So is Bush's rule a "dictatorship" or merely an "attempted dictatorship," in your estimation? What has Bush done vis-a-vis the Judicial Branch to further his Dictatorship?

He's found an effective way to sidestep the judicial branch and the legistlative branch simultaneously.


How has he sidestepped the Judiciary?

Quote:
By using his 'signing statements' to exempt himself from any responsibility to the Legistlative branch, Bush has effectively removed any control Congress has over him.


Do you really think that by using the signing statements has he has, Bush has "removed any control Congress has over him"? After all, if all it takes to remove said "control" is to proclaim that the control no longer exists, then it never really existed in the first place, don't you agree?

Quote:
Becuase it is quite difficult to get the SC to rule on a case where there is no actual defendant who can claim harm, Bush essentially gets a free pass from the Judicial Branch. Unless Congress steps up and holds Bush accountable for his actions, it is highly unlikely that the Judicial branch will take action against Bush.


He gets no such thing .. but it is true that Supreme Court requires a justiciable controversy, but one would think there would be all kinds of harmed plaintiffs bringing suit if Bush is breaking laws left and right. Unless you are claiming nobody is harmed by Bush's actions, in which case I really don't see what you're complaining about.

Quote:
Also, Bush has effectively siezed control of the Justice Department by installing Alberto Gonzales as AG; his own personal lawyer. AG AG is supposed the represent the interests of the people of the US, but it is clear that he represents the interests of Bush far more.


Huh? You think a President ought not be able to appoint who he wants to be A.G.? And if he does he's a "dictator"? It appears it's you who is trying to change the Constitution, not Bush.

Are you sure you're not confusing the Justice Department with the Judicial Branch of the government?

Tico wrote:
Cyclops wrote:
Bush has taken more steps to transform our system of governance into a dictatorship than any previous American president.


But according to DL, he has already made it a dictatorship, and you agreed with her assessment. Which is it: Has he already converted the US to a dictatorship, or is he merely taking steps to effect that transformation?

He is taking steps to do so, by increasing the power of the Executive Branch far beyond any reasonable interpretation.


What has he done that has the effect of increasing the power of the Executive Branch?

Tico wrote:
Cyclops wrote:
Though other presidents have in the past asserted powers beyond the typical scope of Constitutional definitions, none have asserted that they are above the law, and certainly none have flouted congressional authority in the fashion that the Bush executive branch has done.


I don't see that Bush has asserted he is "above the law," but I agree with Bush that he need not follow any laws that are unconstitutional. I know you and I disagree on that point.

Bush doesn't have the right to decide whether or not a law is constitutional or not. He isn't a constitutional scholar. I have yet to see you point out where Bush derives the right to do this.


I did it .... HERE.

Cyclops wrote:
You highlight an excellent point: Bush's tactic has been to find a friendly legal scholar or AG employee to write up a bullshit paper declaring laws impacting on the Executive Branch to be 'unconstitutional' and then proceeds to act as if they are in fact not constitutional. This is a critical step in Bush side-stepping the Judicial Branch, because in many cases it is difficult to hold Bush to task for doing so due to the nature of the court system and the time involved. It is quite possible that even if a case challenging the constitutionality of Bush's 'signing statements' were allowed to go forward without the State Secrets act being invoked, it would take years before the SC could see the case, and during that whole time Bush runs around breaking the law willy-nilly.[/color]


Whether Bush is "running around breaking the law willy-nilly" or not has nothing to do with papers written by legal scholars that are supportive of the position taken by Bush. Nor does it mean Bush is a dictator, simply because there are legal scholars that agree with him.

Cyclops wrote:
Tico wrote:
Cyclops wrote:
Tico wrote:
No, Debra -- with your helpful assistance -- has contributed a lot of hyperbolic paranoia, and little else.


You have no substantial argument justifying Bush's actions at all, and so resort to calling Deb and I 'paranoid.' As time goes by, you will see quite a bit of the same from your fellow Republicans; but it isn't paranoia in the slightest, rather, patriotism and a desire to see the Rule of Law continue in our country, for everyone.

Cycloptichorn


Of course I have arguments in support of Bush's actions, and you've seen me make them on your "America ... Spying on Americans" thread. I don't have a strong urge to replicate them on every thread you choose to start or resurrect that pertains to this topic.

And I thought you believed patriotism was overrated, or do I have you confused with most other leftists?


Patriotism is over-rated. I should be focusing my energies on space research, or making the world better for everyone. Instead I just seem to keep circling back to the affairs of my own country. It is slightly troublesome Confused

Cycloptichorn


It's a redeeming quality, but rare amongst your peers ... you should embrace it.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 May, 2006 04:29 pm
Quote:
If a law is unconstitutional, it is unconstitutional before being declared unconstitutional by a court.


Sorry, I didn't realize you actually believe this crap.

The President doesn't have the legal authority to declare laws unconstitutional. He can only do so to the extent that Congress allows him to do so. In this case, Bush has Congress comfortably in his pocket (we all know the Republican way - Party, Nation, Truth) and so is proceeding to act in an unrestrained manner.

As I have said before, the Prez doesn't have the ability to act without consequence. It is up to our elected Congressmen to make sure that the consequences of Bush's actions are not ignored.

Also, you said:

Quote:
He gets no such thing .. but it is true that Supreme Court requires a justiciable controversy, but one would think there would be all kinds of harmed plaintiffs bringing suit if Bush is breaking laws left and right. Unless you are claiming nobody is harmed by Bush's actions, in which case I really don't see what you're complaining about.


Problem is, you can't bring cases to court without the State Secrets act being employed by the government to quash the trial. See the Recent EFF vs ATT case.

Quote:
What has he done that has the effect of increasing the power of the Executive Branch?


Bush has asserted that he is not limited by any law passed by Congress that he does not wish to be limited by. He has directed the employees of the Executive Branch to ignore duly passed laws by Congress. He has systematically and regularly ignored both the letter and spirit of the laws he swore to uphold.

And it isn't just a matter of simple changes to law; reference the Torture Amendment signing statement, in which Bush directly contradicted the bill he just signed, one intended to limit his authority as CIC. Bush claims that his authority cannot be limited, becuase his lawyers don't support any reading of the constitution which allows this, which allows Bush to break whatever laws he wishes, whenever he wishes. Congress is effectively neutered.

And this is a dangerous action that smacks of dictatorial powers.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 May, 2006 09:59 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
If a law is unconstitutional, it is unconstitutional before being declared unconstitutional by a court.


Sorry, I didn't realize you actually believe this crap.

The President doesn't have the legal authority to declare laws unconstitutional.


I would add that if the president believes a law is unconstitutional he ought not to sign it.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 May, 2006 10:35 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
If a law is unconstitutional, it is unconstitutional before being declared unconstitutional by a court.


Sorry, I didn't realize you actually believe this crap.

The President doesn't have the legal authority to declare laws unconstitutional. He can only do so to the extent that Congress allows him to do so. In this case, Bush has Congress comfortably in his pocket (we all know the Republican way - Party, Nation, Truth) and so is proceeding to act in an unrestrained manner.


I've already told you of the historical precedents for presidents failing to follow laws they believe are unconstitutional ... at their peril. Clinton did it several times.

Quote:
As I have said before, the Prez doesn't have the ability to act without consequence. It is up to our elected Congressmen to make sure that the consequences of Bush's actions are not ignored.


But if we had a dictatorship, as you allege, they wouldn't have that power ... would they?

Quote:
Also, you said:

Quote:
He gets no such thing .. but it is true that Supreme Court requires a justiciable controversy, but one would think there would be all kinds of harmed plaintiffs bringing suit if Bush is breaking laws left and right. Unless you are claiming nobody is harmed by Bush's actions, in which case I really don't see what you're complaining about.


Problem is, you can't bring cases to court without the State Secrets act being employed by the government to quash the trial. See the Recent EFF vs ATT case.


The State Secrets privilege is there for a reason, Cyclops. Its existence and use does not make Bush a dictator.

Quote:
Quote:
What has he done that has the effect of increasing the power of the Executive Branch?


Bush has asserted that he is not limited by any law passed by Congress that he does not wish to be limited by.


How has he asserted that? He has asserted that he will not be held to follow unconstitutional laws, which you think he ought to be bound to do ... apparently because you believe Congress has the power to pass unconstitutional laws.

Quote:
And it isn't just a matter of simple changes to law; reference the Torture Amendment signing statement, in which Bush directly contradicted the bill he just signed, one intended to limit his authority as CIC. Bush claims that his authority cannot be limited, becuase his lawyers don't support any reading of the constitution which allows this, which allows Bush to break whatever laws he wishes, whenever he wishes. Congress is effectively neutered.

And this is a dangerous action that smacks of dictatorial powers.

Cycloptichorn


Just because he states he reserves the right to not enforce a particular law, one that impermissibly restricts his Executive Powers, for instance, that doesn't mean he's overreaching. If the law is unconstitutional, he is not bound by the law.

He is bound to follow laws that are not unconstitutional, regardless of any claim to the contrary.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 May, 2006 10:35 am
FreeDuck wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
If a law is unconstitutional, it is unconstitutional before being declared unconstitutional by a court.


Sorry, I didn't realize you actually believe this crap.

The President doesn't have the legal authority to declare laws unconstitutional.


I would add that if the president believes a law is unconstitutional he ought not to sign it.


Maybe so ... but is he a dictator if he does?
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 May, 2006 10:47 am
Dictator? I don't know. But he's definitely operating outside of the system that was set up over 200 years ago that was intended to ensure a democratic republic. I wonder what he's up to and prefer someone who is more direct, don't you?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 May, 2006 10:58 am
Quote:
If the law is unconstitutional, he is not bound by the law.


This is the giant hole in yer argument, Tico; Laws do not have an inherent 'constitutionality' or 'unconstitutionality'; that is a subjective decision made by the judicial branch, not the executive branch. Otherwise it would be quite easy to see which laws are constitutional and which are not; this is obviously not the case.

Bush doesn't have the authority to not follow laws that he or his lawyers believe are unconstitutional. He only has the ability to do so. This is the crux of the issue.

Until a law has been declared to be unconstitutional, it can not be broken by Bush without consequence. The consequences can be determined by either political or legal means. Bush, and the Republican party in general, have colluded to block any investigation into his breaking of the law (and it is breaking of the law, even if Bush disagrees with the constitutionality of that law). This is akin to a group seizing control of a government and 'gaming' the system in order to violate the principles of that government.

Bush swore an oath to uphold the law. He is currently in major violation of that oath, as he has been breaking the law for some time, knowingly. I suppose that he is mostly a pawn in this, as Cheney & others have assured him that they will 'get away with it' because there is noone to investigate.

Quote:
The State Secrets privilege is there for a reason, Cyclops. Its existence and use does not make Bush a dictator.


It does if Bush et al use this to block any inquiries into their lawbreaking by the Judicial branch. The SC can't review the law because it is never allowed to get that far. This removes the ability of the Judicial branch to check the Executive branch, even though they are well aware that the Executive branch is breaking the law.

Upon what basis do you rest your argument that laws are unconstitutional before they have been declared to be so?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 May, 2006 11:01 am
I'm sorry, FD, but you are wrong. The constitution does provide for an instance in which the President refuses to sign a bill. Article One, Section Seven reads, in part:

If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the Same shall be a Law, in like Manner as if he had signed it, unless the Congress by their Adjournment prevent its Return, in which Case it shall not be a Law.

A President, knowing an adjournment was near, could prevent a bill from becoming law by not signing it, if he knew the Congress would adjourn within ten days time. Nevertheless, if i understand correctly what is being discussed, the President has a right either to veto, or not to sign a bill.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 May, 2006 11:24 am
Setanta wrote:
I'm sorry, FD, but you are wrong. The constitution does provide for an instance in which the President refuses to sign a bill. Article One, Section Seven reads, in part:

If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the Same shall be a Law, in like Manner as if he had signed it, unless the Congress by their Adjournment prevent its Return, in which Case it shall not be a Law.

A President, knowing an adjournment was near, could prevent a bill from becoming law by not signing it, if he knew the Congress would adjourn within ten days time. Nevertheless, if i understand correctly what is being discussed, the President has a right either to veto, or not to sign a bill.


The last sentence pretty much gets to it. I don't think I said that he can't refuse to sign it, just that he shouldn't sign it if he doesn't believe it is constitutional. To sign it into law while believing it unconstitutional is counter to the system. I won't suggest for a minute that there is anything prohibiting him from doing so, just that it isn't in the spirit of our system. It's underhanded and it makes a mockery of the legislative branch and probably encroaches on that branches lawmaking powers.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 May, 2006 01:44 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
If the law is unconstitutional, he is not bound by the law.


This is the giant hole in yer argument, Tico; Laws do not have an inherent 'constitutionality' or 'unconstitutionality'; that is a subjective decision made by the judicial branch, not the executive branch. Otherwise it would be quite easy to see which laws are constitutional and which are not; this is obviously not the case.


I'm not just pulling this out of my ass, Cyclops ... Presidents have done this for years.

Quote:
Bush doesn't have the authority to not follow laws that he or his lawyers believe are unconstitutional. He only has the ability to do so. This is the crux of the issue.


I understand you believe that to be the case, but who gets to decide this issue? And where in the Consitution is Congress given the ability to force the President to follow unconstitutional laws?

... and I swear to God you keep commenting on the fact that Bush "has lawyers" as if that makes him Satan incarnate.

Quote:
Until a law has been declared to be unconstitutional, it can not be broken by Bush without consequence.


I disagree to a point: Until a law has been declared to be unconstitutional by the Judiciary, it can be broken by Bush, but with consequence if it is later found to be unconstitutional.

Let me try an analogy on you: If A shoots B, A may or may not have committed a crime. If after a trial A is found to have committed murder, he will go to prison. If after a trial, A is found to be justified in his homicide of B, A will not go to prison. In neither case is it true that A cannot shoot B. A can shoot B, but at his legal peril. You want to forbid A from shooting B, even if he is justified in doing so.

Quote:
The consequences can be determined by either political or legal means. Bush, and the Republican party in general, have colluded to block any investigation into his breaking of the law (and it is breaking of the law, even if Bush disagrees with the constitutionality of that law). This is akin to a group seizing control of a government and 'gaming' the system in order to violate the principles of that government.


Yes, he is breaking the law, but that is of no consequence if the law is, in fact, found to be unconstitutional.

Quote:
Bush swore an oath to uphold the law. He is currently in major violation of that oath, as he has been breaking the law for some time, knowingly. I suppose that he is mostly a pawn in this, as Cheney & others have assured him that they will 'get away with it' because there is noone to investigate.


No, Bush did not swear an oath "to unhold the law." He swore to "preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States," to the best of his ability.

Please explain how he is fulfilling that oath by following an unconstitutional law. No, he does a better job of fulfilling that oath when he refuses to follow a law that is unconstitutional.

Quote:
Quote:
The State Secrets privilege is there for a reason, Cyclops. Its existence and use does not make Bush a dictator.


It does if Bush et al use this to block any inquiries into their lawbreaking by the Judicial branch. The SC can't review the law because it is never allowed to get that far. This removes the ability of the Judicial branch to check the Executive branch, even though they are well aware that the Executive branch is breaking the law.


The State Secrets privilege is there to protect "state secrets," and that is the case whether or not you fear he is using it to block an inquiry into their lawbreaking. Bush doesn't hold the privilege over the Judicial Branch's head like a sword. The ultimate decision over whether the privilege may be used is with the Judiciary.

Quote:
Upon what basis do you rest your argument that laws are unconstitutional before they have been declared to be so?

Cycloptichorn


Here's a cite to a legal opinion on the subject, written on FindLaw:

Quote:
Newsom Is Right that the Executive Can Sometimes Make Constitutional Judgments

Some opponents have suggested that Mayor Newsom has no business making constitutional judgments in the first place; that is for the courts, and only courts, to do. But that argument defies both the oath he took, and history.

Mayor Newsom is right that in some circumstances, executive officers are entitled to make independent constitutional judgments. Or, put another way, it is not the case that only courts can undertake constitutional review - it is not true that other branches of government always need to wait for, and defer to, the judiciary's determinations of which statutes are constitutional and which are not.

As the California Attorney General's brief points out, Marbury v. Madison does say that "it is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is." But "emphatically" is not "exclusively," and history suggests that sometimes the Executive -- and not just the Judiciary -- has also pronounced on the constitutionality of laws.

Indeed, many a President has historically, and I think properly, asserted a power to decline to enforce a Congressional statute that he believes is unconstitutional -- a power deriving from both the oath he takes to support the U.S. Constitution, and his duty to see that the law, especially the Constitution, is "faithfully executed."

Historical Examples of Constitutional Judgments By Presidents


For example, in the 1798 Alien and Sedition Acts, Congress sought to outlaw criticism of incumbents -- an obvious First Amendment violation. The federal courts, however, held otherwise.

Thomas Jefferson pardoned all those who had been convicted under the old Act, despite these court decisions. To Jefferson, the question was not simply what courts had done or might do, but what his own independent constitutional conscience dictated.

In 1832, President Andrew Jackson he vetoed a bill on constitutional grounds -- again, using independent judgment despite a prior court ruling. There, the Supreme Court had already upheld a similar bill against constitutional challenge. But Jackson wrote:

The Congress, the Executive, and the Court must each for itself be guided by its own opinion of the Constitution. Each public officer who takes an oath to support the Constitution swears that he will support it as he understands it, and not as it is understood by others. It is as much the duty of the House of Representatives, of the Senate, and of the President to decide upon the constitutionality of any bill or resolution which may be presented to them for passage or approval as it is of the supreme judges when it may be brought before them for judicial decision.

Even the Supreme Court itself agrees to some extent: As Walter Dellinger observed when he served in the Office of Legal Counsel during the Clinton administration, the Court has "endorsed" the practice of a President's declining to enforce statutory requirements he views as unconstitutional.


LINK
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 May, 2006 02:13 pm
Under what logic does one rationalize an expropriation of Presidential power by the Legislature as excusable (and even "legal"), while , in the next breath, condemning expropriation of Legislative power by the Executive? The limits, as Tyco has said, are set by the constitution and the Supreme Court is the final arbiter of conflicts.

These conflicts go way back - including President Jefferson's actions to limit seaborne trade during the undeclared war with France; Andrew Jackson's conflict with both the Congress and the Supreme Ciourt over the Bank of the United States ("Justice Marshal has made his decision. Now let him enforce it."); Abraham Lincoln's suspension of Constitutional rights during the Civil War; Teddy Roosevelt's war against the Trusts; FDR's attempt to pack the Supreme Court in defense of his NRA program - and many other facets of the "New Deal"; FDR & Truman's decisions to bomb cities during WWII under conditions that were arguably in defiance of treaties signed and ratified by our government; LBJ's actions in prosecuting the war in INdochina; etc. Debra Law demanded a citation for such events, even though they are well known to any even casual reader of American history.

The key point here is that throughout our history both Presidents and the Congress have repeatedly tested the contemporary limits of their respective powers. There is nothing new, novel, or even original in the actions that Bush is, with breathless indignation, accused of by critics who blandly ignore these historical facts.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 May, 2006 03:29 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
Dictator? I don't know. But he's definitely operating outside of the system that was set up over 200 years ago that was intended to ensure a democratic republic. I wonder what he's up to and prefer someone who is more direct, don't you?


A dictator is defined as a ruler who is unconstrained by law.

WE THE PEOPLE refused to be governed by the undemocratic fiats of men who are unconstrained by the rule of law. It is undeniable that our federal government was framed by our founders so that our executive branch officers would indeed be constrained by laws enacted by the people's elected representatives.

From the very beginning, the entire foundation of our constitutional republic has been that ours is a government of laws, not of men.

The Constitution was written specifically to LIMIT the powers of government. Our founders established three branches of government and assigned each branch a limited role.

It is elementary that the legislative branch MAKES the laws; the executive branch EXECUTES the laws; and the judicial branch applies the law to cases and controversies. Again, our entire system of government is founded upon LAW. Whether or not he agrees with those laws or finds them to be wise or unwise, the president's constitutional duty is to faithfully excute the laws enacted by our elected representatives in Congress.

However, contrary to very essense of our form of government, Bush claims that his unitary executive branch powers cannot be constrained by the laws made by Congress. Bush claims that he alone decides what is best for this nation in contravention of our democratic principles. Bush evades and circumvents our democratic principles by signing congressional enactments into law and then unilaterally declaring that he has the power to ignore those laws when he unilaterally determines to do so. The laws of this nation do not constrain or limit the president as intended, because our president has assumed powers that he is not entiled to have in our constitutional republic. Our laws have been relegated to the status of mere advice that the president may or may not follow according to his own whims. Accordingly, Bush is not constrained by the rule of law. Bush has established himself as a dictator as the word "dictator" is defined: a ruler who is unconstrained by the rule of law.

All attempts by those to deny that Bush has established himself as a dictator are without merit. The facts speak for themselves.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 May, 2006 04:04 pm
Tico, thanks for your last post, it cleared up a lot of your positions for me.

This is the line I think is important:

Quote:
A can shoot B, but at his legal peril. You want to forbid A from shooting B, even if he is justified in doing so.


No, I most emphatically do not wish to forbid the president from doing anything he is justified to do. I merely wish to figure out whether or not he was justified in doing so in a formal setting.

It is my belief that the president is breaking currently existing, constitutional laws. It is not an established fact that this is so, but the Prez and Republicans in Congress have colluded to prevent there being a chance to establish this fact at all. There is some evidence that the Executive branch knew that they were breaking the law (in the NSA case) and continued anyways.

Do you agree that there should be no establishment of fact in this case? That it is correct for Republicans in Congress to block investigation into whether or not the President is acting in a legal and correct manner?

George (and Tico too),
Just because other presidents in the past have gotten away with breaking the law, doesn't mean that presidents today have the authority to do so. They don't, as you well know; the only question is whether or not the Executive Branch can get away with it. In the past they have gotten away with it (not always, though - ask Nixon), but I have a feeling that Bush isn't going to be as lucky.

Deb is 100% correct when she states:

Quote:
Bush claims that his unitary executive branch powers cannot be constrained by the laws made by Congress. Bush unilaterally determines when and if he'll execute the laws enacted by Congress.


By 'deciding' that any law passed by congress that Bush doesn't wish to follow (apparently including anti-discrimination laws, how does that apply to his CIC powers?) impunges on his personal idea of how the Constitution should be interpreted, Bush can effectively ignore Congress.

The President has ways of dealing with Congressional actions he doesn't like: vetoes. Congress can over-ride his veto, impeach him, or re-submit bills. Of course, you are already aware that this is the way our system works. But by gaming the system to his advantage, Bush has found a way around vetoing bills which limit him; he signs them into law and then ignores them, knowing that his loyal cronies in Congress will never investigate his abuses.

Quote:
The key point here is that throughout our history both Presidents and the Congress have repeatedly tested the contemporary limits of their respective powers. There is nothing new, novel, or even original in the actions that Bush is, with breathless indignation, accused of by critics who blandly ignore these historical facts.


Bush has taken his 'test' of Executive Branch powers to a completely new level; whereas presidents have openly defied the wishes of Congress in the past, Bush does it in secret. When presidents in the past had the honesty to admit that they believed the Constitution should be interpreted differently, Bush does not have this honesty but instead decieves both Congressmen and Citizens about his intentions.

This is the danger of one-party rule; unchecked power by one branch of government over another. Allegiance to Party over the Constitution. You can't tell me that Congressmen from either party are happy about finding out that the President has the right to ignore their laws, yet loyalty to the President has over-ridden the sense of Senators and Congressmen from your party.

I take it you both agree that if Hillary is elected in 2008 (or some other Dem who you loathe) then you have no problem whatsoever with her ignoring any provisions of Congress that she doesn't feel meet the Constitutional interpretation that she favors? I'm sure Republican congressman would have a bone to pick with you on that one.

I'll even throw you a bone and bring up your favorite target: if Clinton issued signing statements at the level that Bush has, you'd be screaming bloody f*ckin murder, and you know it!

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 May, 2006 04:06 pm
Debra_Law wrote:

All attempts by those to deny that Bush has established himself as a dictator are without merit. The facts speak for themselves.


Well, Debra has spoken. I guess the thread can end now.

We are indeed a nation of laws. The fundamental law of the land is the constitution. The process for amending it is spelled out in the constitution itself. That process does not consist merely of legislative enactment by the Congress. There is a semantical game being played here. The Congress exercises its power primarily through enactments called laws. That, however does not mean that such enactments can automatically trump the basic law found in the constitution, particularly in a somewhat tortured interpretation of the enactment itself. Powers assigned to the president in the constitution cannot legally be removed by a majority (or even two-thirds) vote in the Congress, establishing a new "law".
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 May, 2006 04:14 pm
What about so-called 'implied' powers, George? Congress can't limit those either? I don't buy that BS. Relies on too much interpretation.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

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