Why the left cannot cheer this liberation

Frank
I understand that you bear only animus for the present administration. I would ask is your evaluation of this nation based upon your opinion of said administration or has it always been as stated. Was it the same during the Clinton administration? I have said of Clinton warts and all his was a good presidency and I add that warts and all this nation is the best there is.

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au said:

Quote:

I add that warts and all this nation is the best there is.

Truly, how does one make that sort of judgement other than out of simple nationalist loyalty? How can one establish in any sort of objective manner that, say, Belgium is 'better' than Spain, or the US 'better' than Britain?

But more curiously, WHY make the claim? A couple of years ago, the local big business community here in Vancouver were pushing for some large project, and the common refrain was that they wished to see Vancouver become a 'world class city'. I have no idea what that might mean. What standards might they be thinking apply? Why assume those are everyone's standards? And if their standard might include, for example, some arbitrary number of really expensive hotels, it would be clearly arguable that an alternate measure might be # of homeless people.

Nationalist loyalty isn't a simple beast, it has big downsides too. Shall we speak about Germany in the thirties? About the failure of Brits last century to perceive the negative consequences to others of their empire?

What threat does the US face, which might justify such a fervor of nationalist loyalty? These sentiments are not different in kind now than before 9-11, so that doesn't explain it. Independence happened a LONG time ago. So who is the enemy here Au?

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au1929 wrote:

Frank
I understand that you bear only animus for the present administration. I would ask is your evaluation of this nation based upon your opinion of said administration or has it always been as stated.

It has always been so. I do not like the "my country, right or wrong" mentality, especially if it means I cannot criticize. I am very proud of many of the things we have done as a nation and as a people, but I am very, very apprehensive about what passes for patriotism among some elements.

As for your "...warts and all this nation is the best there is..." -- well, that is your right. There are people who do that with states also -- "My state is better than any other state." I consider such stuff to be nonsense -- and I consider it nonsense on a national level also.

All that having been said, however, allow me to acknowledge that I have a special difficulty dealing with conservative perspecitves of the issue.

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blatham, I don't think specificity is necessary to claim that "our country is the best on earth." The Brits will claim that their country is the "best on earth," while the people of Sweden may also make that claim. Nothing wrong with that - is there? Having been a resident of the US since birth, and seeing the progress made in equality for minorities during the span of my life of 67 years, I will also make the claim that the "US is the best country on earth." We come from a very modest background, but all of my siblings and I have made much economic and social progress. My older brother was an Administrative Judge in California. My younger brother is a Ophthalmologist with an MBA, and now a Assemblyman in California. My sister is an RN. The majority of our children have done very well, producing three doctors, a dentist, a PhD, a lawyer, a MS in Communication Science, and a niece working on her PhD in Chemistry at UCLA on scholarship. More than half of our children have married into other cultures and nationalities. I present this perspective, because I have traveled extensively, and have seen well educated people in other countries who are barely eeking out a living. For example, the boat staff on our cruise in Russia were all professonals; doctors, lawyers, and college professors who can earn more in gratuities than in their professions. Although the economy in China is improving, Engineers earn about $5,000 a year. I was a lowly bean counter, but I retired early, and am now able to travel this world of ours three times a year. You can bet your bottom dollar that my sentiments will always be with "my country." c.i.

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ci

I do understand. Not infrequently I've voiced my personal opinion that the US has got more right than wrong. And there are reasons for a Belgian or a Canadian or an American to acknowledge what is right about their particular social organization.

On the other hand, there is a particularly offensive (to me, though I'm certainly not alone) denial about what the US gets wrong, and how wrong those things can be, and the cover for this denial is parroted nationalist myths. It is weak-minded cowardice to not face these things or to attempt to bully others into not speaking of them. This is the worst of the US, and it is as real as the good stuff. But the good stuff poses no danger, the bad stuff does.

Hunter Thompson on the matter...

Quote:

Last year, well before the Iraq war, Thompson wrote: "We have become a Nazi monster in the eyes of the whole world - a nation of bullies and bastards who would rather kill than live peacefully. We are not just whores for power and oil, but killer whores with hate and fear in our hearts. We are human scum, and that is how history will judge us. George W Bush does not speak for me or my son or my mother or my friends or the people I respect in this world."

That is included in his new book, along with another prescient piece, written on September 12 2001, in which he predicted "a religious war, a sort of Christian jihad, fuelled by religious hatred and led by merciless fanatics on both sides. It will be guerrilla warfare on a global scale, with no front lines. We are going to punish somebody for this attack, but just who or what will be blown to smithereens for it is hard to say. Maybe Afghanistan, maybe Pakistan or Iraq, or possibly all three at once."

http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,12084,956891,00.html

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Timber - Good comments.

I wonder sometimes how often healthy criticism of our government becomes a knee-jerk tendency to assume that we are in the wrong. Of course, this analysis always seems to be done through an ideological lense. When liberals win the day in our government, liberals tend to assume this is government functioning properly, while conservatives view the same actions and see it as government run amok. Likewise, when conservatives act within our government, conservatives tend to infer the that best intentions were involved and the that brightest outcomes will result, while liberals decry the actions as ill-advised and apocalyptic in their repercussions.

So, at any given time one group or the other will assure you that this country is headed in the right direction, while the other is just as sure we are going to hell.

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Frank

Quote:

It has always been so. I do not like the "my country, right or wrong" mentality, especially if it means I cannot criticize. I am very proud of many of the things we have done as a nation and as a people, but I am very, very apprehensive about what passes for patriotism among some elements.

You would seem to be straddling two sides of the fence. Yes, it fine to criticize actions of your or any other nation. But in my opinion not to demonize the nation because you are not in concert with the present administration or shall I say conservative thinking. Should I dare ask which nation do you think better and has done more good for the world community in the last 100 years? I will quote from that which is written at the base of the statue of liberty. "Give me your tired and your poor. Your hungry masses yearning to breath free." And leave it at that.
FYI. My politics are not conservative nor liberal they are issue based and nothing more. And Blatham being proud of ones country is not a crime at least not in the US.

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Frank
I should add that this country has been and still is the symbol of freedom throughout the world. It was and still is coincided the golden land of opportunity by the millions who came and are still coming to our shores. Can any other nation make that claim. Again I am very proud to be an American. Bush or no Bush.

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Au

I am also proud to be an American -- and I am delighted that I have the kinds of freedoms I have. I also applaud this nation for being a leader in experimentation to see if humans can live in the kind of freedom we take for granted.

But I do not have to go around mouthing platitudes about this being the greatest country in the world -- and I would prefer not to do so.

I am sure the citizens of many other countries think their's is the best in the world -- and to be honest, I think such protestations are nonsense.

I'm sorry you have to characterize what I have explained in detail as "demonizing" this country. I am not doing that. I am simply acknowledging that this country does things in its own self-interest -- just as do other countries. And I am acknowledging that we have on occasion done things of which no American should truly be proud.

And quite honestly, among the people that I have known in my life -- the ones who make a huge deal about their "patriotism" are the ones who, in my opinion, understand our country least.

Now you have stated several times that you are proud to be an American. I am happy for you.

I also am proud to be an American -- and I take justifiable pride in the many fine things America and Americans have done. I just don't think I have to go through the theatrics you deem essential in order to be a good, patriotic citizen.

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Frank
I will close with one last word. I should remind you it was you who made the statement -- NOR ANY BETTER -- than most of the rest of the world. To which I took exception and of course still do.

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au1929 wrote:

Frank
I will close with one last word. I should remind you it was you who made the statement -- NOR ANY BETTER -- than most of the rest of the world. To which I took exception and of course still do.

AND I STAND BY THAT. WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING???????????????

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Frank
It triggered the entire interchange.

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au1929 wrote:

Frank
It triggered the entire interchange.

I prefer to think that your statement that the United States is better than all other countries was the trigger.

If you really want to think that, do so.

I don't.

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My virtual penis is biggern' yer virtual penis :p

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Set, It ain't the size that counts...... Wink

c.i.

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um thats not what the ladies say when your not around.

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dys, We're talking "virtual." Get it? ha, ha....

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Must every thing be reduced to a rigid digit? Laughing

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setanta

Missed ya.

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Why the left cannot cheer this liberation

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