9
   

America... Spying on Americans

 
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 03:34 pm
squinney wrote:
Pretty sure we've been through all that "what law" stuff and he DID break the law.

If you want to know which one go back to the first page and start reading.


How do you interpret the FISC Court of Review's opinion, squinney? How do you reconcile that with your "and he DID break the law," remark?
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 03:41 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
Rest easy ... It appears he did.

Sez you. Laughing
0 Replies
 
kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 03:51 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
Again, your claim that the FISC Court of Review doesn't have the authority to rule on whether or not the President has inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches does not take away from the clear message in that case that the President, in fact, does hold that inherent authority.


Ticomaya wrote:
You are suggesting that the power of the President to conduct warrantless searches is terminated upon the passage of FISA? I refer you back again to the FISC Court of Review opinion which specifically debunks that claim. That appears to be the latest opinion of the current state of this law, whether you want to believe it or not.


What is it about the US Constitution you don't understand?

Quote:
Article 1 - The Legislative Branch

Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish a uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.


The inherent powers argument in Article II refers to the President's powers as CIC of the Armed Forces. Things like the NSA and conduct of foreign intelligence obviously fall under the direction of the military.

Article I, Section 8 gives Congress the power to "make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces." Under this administration's theory of plenary power of the CIC, it means that the NSA is a "land force," since it falls under the direction of the President as CiC.

FISA then is a rule made by Congress under its explicit (and not even the inherent powers claimed by Bush) powers under Article I "to make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces."

The position of Bush apologists is that although the Constitution grants Congress the "explicit power" to make rules for the governance and regulation of the military, the Commander in Chief of the military has the "inherent power" not to follow those rules.



Ticomaya wrote:
Youngstown did not relate to warrantless searches for foreign intelligence purposes, a power the Supreme Court specifically declined to limit in its Keith ruling ... which came well-after the Youngstown opinion.

So what? Keith did not decide on the issues that were decided by Youngstown; specificially those related to restrictions on executive branch power by congressional statute. Warantless searches fall under that category. The court in Younstown did not place any limitations on its opinion. It stands as the law of the land.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 04:06 pm
mysteryman wrote:
parados wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
Kuvasz,
War was not declared in Korea,Vietnam,Bosnia,or in any other military action that the US has been in since WW2.
But,that has not stopped whatever president was in power at the time from exercising his war powers as he saw fit,up to and including domestic spying.


Really? When did any president use warrantless searches or surveillence of US citizens in any of those time frames?

For someone that demands evidence of anyone being spied on before you will admit their rights are violated you are quick to claim it has been done before without a single piece of evidence to back up your claim.


Oh really???

Start here...
http://robots.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/19/morton.wiretaps/index.html

"It's an old argument. Back during the Vietnam War, government photographers went to the anti-war demonstrations and took pictures of the demonstrators. Protest leaders thought, probably correctly, that their phones were tapped. Even I, a reporter covering the protests, heard some odd clicking noises when I picked up the phone to make some calls. And, of course, FBI chief J. Edgar Hoover, who made his own laws, eavesdropped on Martin Luther King Jr., among others, though we didn't know it at the time.

Outside the law? John Mitchell, who was President Richard Nixon's Attorney General, argued that the government didn't need a warrant to tap the phone of any political dissenter it thought was a threat to national security,"


perhaps you need to post the REST of the paragraph

Quote:
Outside the law? John Mitchell, who was President Richard Nixon's Attorney General, argued that the government didn't need a warrant to tap the phone of any political dissenter it thought was a threat to national security, which certainly does sound like the secret police at work. But in 1972, the Supreme Court ruled 9-0 that Mitchell was wrong. Justice Lewis Powell, a Nixon appointee, wrote for the unanimous court that the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution protects Americans from "unreasonable searches and seizures" and that that freedom "cannot be properly guaranteed if domestic security surveillances are conducted solely at the discretion of the executive branch."


It is NOT a war power to do domestic survellience. The court was pretty clear on it. Bush doesn't have that power because others did it. In fact he doesn't have that power based on court rulings when others did it.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 04:07 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
Of course there are limits. The surveillance must be on foreign powers, or agents thereof, for foreign intelligence purposes.



After the Supreme Court decided United States v. United States District Court in which the Court stated "the instant case requires no judgment on the scope of the President's surveillance power with respect to the activities of foreign powers, within or without this country," CONGRESS enacted the FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE SURVEILLANCE ACT.

Even if we (the PEOPLE of the United States) assume that the President had inherent constitutional power to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence information, Congress has chosen to regulate that power. We (the PEOPLE) KNOW that Congress has EXPLICIT constitutional power to make rules for government. We KNOW that Congress has EXPLICIT power to enact laws to regulate the manner in which the PRESIDENT may execute his constitutional powers.

FISA does not strip the President of power to conduct warrantless surveillance to obtain foreign intelligence information. FISA establishes RULES--checks and balances--for the president to follow to ensure that the president does not abuse his power.

Because CONGRESS has spoken on the issue of electronic surveillance through a congressional enactment, the president is required to faithfully execute the law. The president does not have inherent authority to disregard congressional enactments at his pleasure. His decision to bypass FISA in favor of ordering his own secret domestic spying program to thwart accountability and to evade congressional and judicial oversight violates both the Constitution and FISA. He has committed a federal crime. See 50 U.S.C. ยง 1809.
0 Replies
 
Louise R Heller
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 04:28 pm
From Ms. Law's post above:

"....His decision to bypass FISA in favor of ordering his own secret domestic spying program to thwart accountability and to evade congressional and judicial oversight violates both the Constitution and FISA. He has committed a federal crime. ......."


Why, if that's the case, has nobody gone to court to file charges and / or pressed a case before Congress for impeachment of the President???
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 04:53 pm
Louise_R_Heller wrote:

Why, if that's the case, has nobody gone to court to file charges and / or pressed a case before Congress for impeachment of the President???


If you are following the news--or following the posts in this thread--you will discover that citizens and members of congress ARE calling for an investigation.

IF criminal charges are contemplated, a special prosecutor will have to be appointed. Bush doesn't think he has done anything wrong. Bush claims we ought to trust his well-meaning intentions to protect the nation. We can't expect the Attorney General and Bush to prosecute themselves. See, e.g., FRANKS v. DELAWARE, 438 U.S. 154 (1978) (quoting Wolf v. Colorado, 338 U.S. 25, 42 (1949):

Quote:
Self-scrutiny is a lofty ideal, but its exaltation reaches new heights if we expect a District Attorney to prosecute himself or his associates for well-meaning violations of the search and seizure clause during a raid the District Attorney or his associates have ordered



http://laws.findlaw.com/us/438/154.html
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 04:56 pm
It's Christmas, for gawds sake. And it hasn't even been been two weeks since he admitted to doing it.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 05:08 pm
squinney wrote:
It's Christmas, for gawds sake. And it hasn't even been been two weeks since he admitted to doing it.


He admitted to breaking the law? Wow! Maybe you Liberals are right about Faux News because I missed that bombshell watching Fox.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 05:14 pm
Debra_Law wrote:

If you are following the news--or following the posts in this thread--you will discover that citizens and members of congress ARE calling for an investigation.


Good luck with that Smile

This show will definitely be popcorn-worthy. Even the Democrats must know this is so going to backfire.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20051228-122207-1549r.htm




<That sound you hear is the Dems marching. Straight off the cliff>
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 05:28 pm
kuvasz wrote:

The position of Bush apologists is that although the Constitution grants Congress the "explicit power" to make rules for the governance and regulation of the military, the Commander in Chief of the military has the "inherent power" not to follow those rules.



EXACTLY. This "inherent power" that they claim for the president to circumvent and minimalize Congress is the foundation of tyranny, pure and simple.

The president's position is quite arrogant. He thumbs his nose at our elected lawmakers and says: "I'll follow the law when I want to (like the 1700 plus times last year that the executive branch obtained FISA court approval for electronic surveillance); and I'll ignore the law when I want to (like conducting my own secret domestic spying program without any accountability to the people or the other branches of government)."

The Supreme Court has ruled that the president is not above the law:

Quote:
In sum, while the full protections that accompany challenges to detentions in other settings may prove unworkable and inappropriate in the enemy-combatant setting, the threats to military operations posed by a basic system of independent review are not so weighty as to trump a citizen’s core rights to challenge meaningfully the Government’s case and to be heard by an impartial adjudicator.

D

In so holding, we necessarily reject the Government’s assertion that separation of powers principles mandate a heavily circumscribed role for the courts in such circumstances. Indeed, the position that the courts must forgo any examination of the individual case and focus exclusively on the legality of the broader detention scheme cannot be mandated by any reasonable view of separation of powers, as this approach serves only to condense power into a single branch of government.

We have long since made clear that a state of war is not a blank check for the President when it comes to the rights of the Nation’s citizens. Youngstown Sheet & Tube, 343 U.S., at 587. Whatever power the United States Constitution envisions for the Executive in its exchanges with other nations or with enemy organizations in times of conflict, it most assuredly envisions a role for all three branches when individual liberties are at stake. Mistretta v. United States, 488 U.S. 361, 380 (1989) (it was “the central judgment of the Framers of the Constitution that, within our political scheme, the separation of governmental powers into three coordinate Branches is essential to the preservation of liberty”); Home Building & Loan Assn. v. Blaisdell, 290 U.S. 398, 426 (1934) (The war power “is a power to wage war successfully, and thus it permits the harnessing of the entire energies of the people in a supreme cooperative effort to preserve the nation. But even the war power does not remove constitutional limitations safeguarding essential liberties”).

Likewise, we have made clear that, unless Congress acts to suspend it, the Great Writ of habeas corpus allows the Judicial Branch to play a necessary role in maintaining this delicate balance of governance, serving as an important judicial check on the Executive’s discretion in the realm of detentions. See St. Cyr, 533 U.S., at 301 (“At its historical core, the writ of habeas corpus has served as a means of reviewing the legality of Executive detention, and it is in that context that its protections have been strongest”). Thus, while we do not question that our due process assessment must pay keen attention to the particular burdens faced by the Executive in the context of military action, it would turn our system of checks and balances on its head to suggest that a citizen could not make his way to court with a challenge to the factual basis for his detention by his government, simply because the Executive opposes making available such a challenge. Absent suspension of the writ by Congress, a citizen detained as an enemy combatant is entitled to this process.


Hamdi v. Rumsfeld
http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/03-6696.ZO.html

Similarly, the people's liberty interests are jeopardized if the president claims power to conduct electronic surveillance of United States persons without any accountability or checks to ensure the executive branch does not abuse that power. It would turn our system of checks and balances on its head to suggest that the President may disregard FISA at his pleasure. In the secret business of surveillance for national security, the only thing standing between American citizens and unfettered executive tyranny are the checks and balances instituted by Congress through FISA.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 05:39 pm
Why Get A Warrant?: The President's Admission that He Authorized Warrantless Domestic Surveillance
By SHERRY F. COLB

----
Wednesday, Dec. 28, 2005

The New York Times recently revealed that the Bush Administration has been ordering the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on telephone conversations and e-mails of U.S. citizens, without first seeking a warrant. President Bush has acknowledged the truth of the reports.

Such warrantless surveillance contravenes both the Constitution and federal statutes. For ordinary domestic surveillance, the U.S. Constitution generally requires a warrant supported by probable cause to believe that the target of the surveillance has committed a crime. Several statutes, including Title III of the Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act of 1968 (the "Wiretap Act"), and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act ("FISA"), similarly require that a warrant generally be obtained when the government wishes to spy on people in this country.

The President contends, however, that these warrant requirements, and the statutes that contain them, do not take into account the current realities of terrorism and must therefore go by the wayside. Bush's claim does not withstand close scrutiny.


What Are Warrants and Why Do We Require Them?

To appreciate the weakness of the President's claims, it is important to understand the role that warrants play in guarding our privacy.

A warrant is a certification by a detached and neutral magistrate - typically, a judge -- that a government official or other person planning to search people is justified in doing so.

The justification itself depends on the nature and scope of the intended surveillance. For example, if the police wish to have a surgeon cut open a suspect to look for a stray bullet from a victim's gun, more is required than if the police want to open a suspect's suitcase to look for marijuana. Generally, however, the constitutional standard is "probable cause," a phrase that roughly means good reason to believe that the search will turn up evidence of crime.

FISA, the statute that governs domestic gathering of foreign intelligence information, contains similar rules, although they are in some ways more flexible and, in other respects, more cumbersome. Notably, for our purposes, FISA creates a Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (the "FISA Court") made up of federal district judges, to review FISA surveillance applications.

FISA also creates a Court of Review, made up of federal judges, to hear government appeals of lower FISA Court decisions. Such appeals take place ex parte (or outside the presence of an opponent).

To carry out electronic surveillance of a U.S. citizen or permanent resident alien, FISA requires that there be "probable cause" to believe that the target is a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power. In reviewing whether to grant a surveillance order, the FISA Court judge defers to the agent seeking the warrant and reviews whether there has been "clear error" in the determination that such probable cause exists.

Importantly, the need for a warrant does not -- in either the criminal or the foreign intelligence context -- add anything substantive to the requirements for conducting surveillance. The point of requiring a warrant lies in the incentives that each actor brings to the job of judging whether there is, or is not, sufficient reason to conduct surveillance.

For an ordinary search warrant, the magistrate defers less to the police officer and decides, on her own, whether there really is "probable cause" to believe that a proposed search will uncover evidence of crime. In the case of either FISA surveillance orders or the more conventional search warrants, however, the judge does not insert an additional demand of the evidence -- he simply decides (with more or less deference) whether the officer properly did her job.

Why Require a Warrant? Looking to Incentives

A police officer is engaged in what the Supreme Court has called the "often competitive enterprise of ferreting out crime." The same, of course, could be said of security agents trying to ferret out terrorism. Therefore, an officer or agent might see probable cause where there is none. For similar reasons, people who visit a surgeon and hear the advice "let's operate" often seek a second opinion from a doctor who does not earn a living cutting people open.

A police officer is understood to have a bias in favor of searching, because her job is to be suspicious and to locate criminals. The same is true of officers conducting foreign surveillance.

A magistrate or judge, by contrast, is more likely to have the ability to look at the facts that an officer presents and to judge, somewhat independently, without the zeal that characterizes an officer on the hunt, whether there is indeed good reason to conduct surveillance. Though purely procedural, the step of requiring an officer to seek a warrant can therefore have a needed disciplinary effect on the process and may in fact save the substance of "probable cause" from being secretly and steadily diluted and ultimately eliminated.

Consider an analogous context. Imagine that a person is accused of a crime but that the arresting officer, rather than a jury, will decide whether the prosecutor has proved guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. This procedure would likely seem grossly unfair to most Americans. If the defendant is not guilty, how likely is the arresting officer to detect that fact, given her investment in the apparent guilt of someone that she has personally arrested?

To be sure, bias is not the same thing as dishonesty (although a bias can certainly give rise to dishonesty, such as when a defendant's mother provides a false alibi in an attempt to save her son from the death penalty). To be biased, simply put, is to have a set of loyalties and interests that could interfere with one's ability objectively to process and measure facts. (Most parents, for example, believe that their children are above average, but they cannot all be right).

When To Forego a Warrant

We have seen that a warrant serves the crucial function of bringing in an arbiter who is more neutral than an executive branch official, to pass on the question of whether a proposed search is justified on the facts. The warrant serves this function in the ordinary criminal investigation context, and it does so as well in the FISA context, in which the federal government wants to uncover terrorist activities and applies to the FISA Court for authorization.

But there are times when seeking a warrant may not be practical. President Bush, in responding to criticisms regarding recent revelations about warrantless monitoring since 2001, has suggested, in defense of his actions, that our current era and the "war on terror" represent, broadly, one of those times. How persuasive is that defense?

In the context of ordinary law enforcement and the U.S. Constitution, the police have authorization to avoid the requirement of a warrant for a particular search or seizure. For example, when an officer is in the "hot pursuit" of a fleeing (alleged) felon who runs into his own home, the officer may enter the house to apprehend the accused felon. In such a situation, there is no time to stop and obtain a warrant before entering the home. The officer, under these conditions, may judge on her own whether she has probable cause to go into the house and arrest the target. The U.S. Supreme Court has recognized such situations as presenting "exigent circumstances" that permit police to act without a warrant.

In the foreign intelligence surveillance area, there is a similar rule. When officials wish to monitor a telephone line for terrorist communications, for example, and the monitoring must begin before there is time to appear before the FISA Court, the Attorney General may authorize a warrantless tap, as long as he gives notice to a FISA Court judge and then applies for a warrant within 72 hours of the commencement of surveillance.

To find the president's defense of his warrantless surveillance persuasive, we accordingly must accept his claim that seeking a warrant, even under the flexible standards of FISA, is simply too burdensome in an age of terrorism. Such a claim, however, is -- on its face -- unpersuasive. Not every terrorism lead will require immediate action, and if a few hours delay is acceptable, then there should be enough time to obtain a warrant. When immediate action is necessary, moreover, it is possible -- within the confines of FISA -- to act immediately, provided that judicial review is sought within three days. The President has thus far offered no explanation for what sort of threat would preclude the seeking of even an after-the-fact warrant.

How The Attacks of 9/11 and Their Aftermath Bear On The Warrant Requirement

When pressed for an answer to such an obvious question, the President invokes national security. He suggests that the only way to survive in an age of terrorism is through secret surveillance with no accountability beyond the executive branch. The problem with such a suggestion is that it is both wrong and dangerous.

The suggestion is wrong because we now know that the problem on September 11th was not the failure to have gathered intelligence. It was the failure to read the intelligence we already had (about flight schools and planned airplane attacks on the World Trade Center towers), to which the administration had ready access. The problem, in other words, was too much -- and poorly organized -- information, rather than not enough. The continuing broad surveillance of U.S. citizens, without oversight, thus promises only to aggravate matters.

The suggestion that terrorism requires warrantless surveillance is dangerous too, because there is no stopping point to the argument that "we're doing everything, regardless of the law, to prevent the loss of life." The argument justifies unprovoked wars, torture, endless invasions of privacy, and the creation of a dictatorship the structure of which might come to resemble that of the very enemies from which the President wishes to protect the people of the United States.

The warrant requirement is a critical component of our democracy. Right now, it ensures that someone outside of the Bush Administration might be in a position to criticize and veto decisions that could be biased, mistaken, and ultimately fatal to the freedom that Bush and his critics alike hold dear.


http://writ.news.findlaw.com/colb/20051228.html
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 05:57 pm
JustWonders wrote:
Debra_Law wrote:

If you are following the news--or following the posts in this thread--you will discover that citizens and members of congress ARE calling for an investigation.


Good luck with that Smile

This show will definitely be popcorn-worthy. Even the Democrats must know this is so going to backfire.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20051228-122207-1549r.htm


<That sound you hear is the Dems marching. Straight off the cliff>



I'm sure you will be munching on your popcorn in blissful ignorant glee when the all the liberals have stampeded off the cliff and there is no one left to complain about the rise of tyranny when Bush and his cronies come after you and yours.

"Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."--Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis, Olmstead v. United States, 277 U.S. 438 (1928)


"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animated contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsel or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."--Samuel Adams
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 06:02 pm
Thanks for the FindLaw article, Debra.

Evidently, there are some lawyers with "terrorist" clients that will be looking into this as well.

What kinda major screw up would that be, to have known terrorists released or information not allowed cause Bush was on an power grabbing ego trip and didn't get a warrant?

http://www.newsobserver.com/110/story/382613.html
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 06:41 pm
Debra_Law wrote:

I'm sure you will be munching on your popcorn in blissful ignorant glee when the all the liberals have stampeded off the cliff and there is no one left to complain about the rise of tyranny when Bush and his cronies come after you and yours.

"Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."--Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis, Olmstead v. United States, 277 U.S. 438 (1928)


"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animated contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsel or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."--Samuel Adams


A bit dramatic, don't you think?

But, as long as we're quoting...

President Bush is trying to put the best spin he can on this eavesdropping scandal, like he said today:
"This proves we have a government that listens to the people."
-- Jay Leno

:wink:
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 07:02 pm
What did Bernie say?

Oh yeah. It isn't spying, it's Freedom Listening.
Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 07:29 pm
The Grey Lady Toys With TreasonThe New York Times is badly in need of adult supervision.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 07:38 pm
squinney wrote:
Thanks for the FindLaw article, Debra.

Evidently, there are some lawyers with "terrorist" clients that will be looking into this as well.

What kinda major screw up would that be, to have known terrorists released or information not allowed cause Bush was on an power grabbing ego trip and didn't get a warrant?

http://www.newsobserver.com/110/story/382613.html


The FISA court judges are truly concerned that information gleaned from the secret spying program was used to obtain FISA warrants--hence the Congress's carefully-crafted FISA program has been tainted.

No doubt, even FISA warrants that were formerly unimpeachable due to statutory safeguards could be considered "fruit of the poisonous tree" because Bush intentionally bypassed those safeguards.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 07:51 pm
"The Grey Lady Toys With Treason". I dont think she toyed with treason. She was a leading force for lying us into war. The NYTimes and Judith Miller were the chief media conduit for spreading Bushie's lies that led to war. They're very much complicit in Bushie's war crimes. We will have gained nothing by impeaching Bushie if we fail to also charge American mainstream corporate media. They'll just do it again if we let them.
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 08:18 pm




There's that lie again. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
 

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