9
   

America... Spying on Americans

 
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 08:40 am
DrewDad wrote:
woiyo wrote:
There are arguments that support the fact that it could take longer than 72 hours just to prepare the case.

Maybe, one of the Attorny's who regularly post here can shed some light in this regard.

If they found the law too restrictive, then they should have sought to modify the law. Instead, they were ordered to ignore the law.


Apparently, based upon prior activities of other administrations and certain case law, this administration felt their activities were legal, especally givien the fact that they had communicated their activities to several congressional leaders in the years prior.

However, I agree, this procedure needs to be looked into.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 08:46 am
They felt they were legal due to the writings of one John Yoo, who believes the President has Kingly powers during times of war.

Nothing more.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 08:48 am
Actually, just presidential powers. It nothing more than hyperbole to call it king like or dictator like.
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 08:51 am
John Yoo...This John Yoo?

http://www.aei.org/scholars/scholarID.74,filter.all/scholar.asp

Yoo is a professor of law at the University of California at Berkeley (Boalt Hall School of Law) and a former deputy assistant attorney general in the office of legal counsel of the Department of Justice.
Professional Experience

-Professor of Law, Boalt Hall School of Law, University of California at Berkeley, 1993-present
-Visiting Professor of Law, University of Chicago Law School, 2003
-Deputy Assistant Attorney General, Office of Legal Counsel, U.S. Department of Justice, 2001-2003

-General Counsel, Committee on the Judiciary, U.S. Senate, 1995-1996

-Law Clerk, Justice Clarence Thomas, 1994-1995

-Law Clerk, Judge Laurence H. Silberman, 1992-1993

Education
J.D., Yale Law School
B.A., history, Harvard University


I can see why you would hold the opinions of the NY TIMES, et all, over this individual or the many others who have come out in support of this President actions.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 08:51 am
woiyo wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
woiyo wrote:
There are arguments that support the fact that it could take longer than 72 hours just to prepare the case.

Maybe, one of the Attorny's who regularly post here can shed some light in this regard.

If they found the law too restrictive, then they should have sought to modify the law. Instead, they were ordered to ignore the law.


Apparently, based upon prior activities of other administrations and certain case law, this administration felt their activities were legal, especally givien the fact that they had communicated their activities to several congressional leaders in the years prior.

However, I agree, this procedure needs to be looked into.

If you want to give the president this power, then just say so.
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 08:54 am
DrewDad wrote:
woiyo wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
woiyo wrote:
There are arguments that support the fact that it could take longer than 72 hours just to prepare the case.

Maybe, one of the Attorny's who regularly post here can shed some light in this regard.

If they found the law too restrictive, then they should have sought to modify the law. Instead, they were ordered to ignore the law.


Apparently, based upon prior activities of other administrations and certain case law, this administration felt their activities were legal, especally givien the fact that they had communicated their activities to several congressional leaders in the years prior.

However, I agree, this procedure needs to be looked into.

If you want to give the president this power, then just say so.


Amazing how you still do not get it.

The President ALREADY HAS THE POWER. What needed are more efficient checks and balances to avoid potential abuse.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 08:54 am
That John Yoo. And the vast majority of legal scholars disagree with his reasoning, sorry.

And, it's Kingly powers, McG. Yoo pretends that the President is above the law, and this is never in fact true, even during the time of war. It violates the basic oath taken by the President at his swearing in to defend the laws of the nation of America. Yoo argues that this is true due to his twisted version of constitutional interpretation that implies that the founders intended the Prez to have the powers of a King, which I and pretty much everyone else disagree with, as it is patently UnAmerican.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 08:56 am
roger wrote:
I get it. Watergate politics, all over again.


These guys don't plan on giving up the power, even if they're elected out! I never really believed that Diebold affected the election until just now. This very moment!

Anon
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 09:00 am
woiyo wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
woiyo wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
woiyo wrote:
There are arguments that support the fact that it could take longer than 72 hours just to prepare the case.

Maybe, one of the Attorny's who regularly post here can shed some light in this regard.

If they found the law too restrictive, then they should have sought to modify the law. Instead, they were ordered to ignore the law.


Apparently, based upon prior activities of other administrations and certain case law, this administration felt their activities were legal, especally givien the fact that they had communicated their activities to several congressional leaders in the years prior.

However, I agree, this procedure needs to be looked into.

If you want to give the president this power, then just say so.


Amazing how you still do not get it.

The President ALREADY HAS THE POWER. What needed are more efficient checks and balances to avoid potential abuse.

He has the power, obviously, but there seems to be some question as to whether exercising said power is legal.

You seem to want to play semantic games as much as the administration; I hope it gives you joy.
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 09:01 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
That John Yoo. And the vast majority of legal scholars disagree with his reasoning, sorry.

And, it's Kingly powers, McG. Yoo pretends that the President is above the law, and this is never in fact true, even during the time of war. It violates the basic oath taken by the President at his swearing in to defend the laws of the nation of America. Yoo argues that this is true due to his twisted version of constitutional interpretation that implies that the founders intended the Prez to have the powers of a King, which I and pretty much everyone else disagree with, as it is patently UnAmerican.

Cycloptichorn


I am sure you have the list of the VAST MAJORITY of legal scholars who disagree. Yet, their opinions, including Yoo's, are irrlelvant.

What is relavent is this...
http://www.able2know.com/forums/posting.php?mode=quote&p=1752153


""In the Supreme Court's 1972 Keith decision holding that the president does not have inherent authority to order wiretapping without warrants to combat domestic threats, the court said explicitly that it was not questioning the president's authority to take such action in response to threats from abroad.

Four federal courts of appeal subsequently faced the issue squarely and held that the president has inherent authority to authorize wiretapping for foreign intelligence purposes without judicial warrant.

In the most recent judicial statement on the issue, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review, composed of three federal appellate court judges, said in 2002 that [/B]"All the ... courts to have decided the issue held that the president did have inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence ... We take for granted that the president does have that authority.""


""But as the 2002 Court of Review noted, if the president has inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches, "FISA could not encroach on the president's constitutional power."

Every president since FISA's passage has asserted that he retained inherent power to go beyond the act's terms. Under President Clinton, deputy Atty. Gen. Jamie Gorelick testified that "the Department of Justice believes, and the case law supports, that the president has inherent authority to conduct warrantless physical searches for foreign intelligence purposes.""

I happen to generally disagee and would rather see a procedure that requires warrants. Yet, I do support GW's intent in this regard.
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 09:03 am
DrewDad wrote:
woiyo wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
woiyo wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
woiyo wrote:
There are arguments that support the fact that it could take longer than 72 hours just to prepare the case.

Maybe, one of the Attorny's who regularly post here can shed some light in this regard.

If they found the law too restrictive, then they should have sought to modify the law. Instead, they were ordered to ignore the law.


Apparently, based upon prior activities of other administrations and certain case law, this administration felt their activities were legal, especally givien the fact that they had communicated their activities to several congressional leaders in the years prior.

However, I agree, this procedure needs to be looked into.

If you want to give the president this power, then just say so.


Amazing how you still do not get it.

The President ALREADY HAS THE POWER. What needed are more efficient checks and balances to avoid potential abuse.

He has the power, obviously, but there seems to be some question as to whether exercising said power is legal.

You seem to want to play semantic games as much as the administration; I hope it gives you joy.


Maybe the problem is your inability to objectively anyalze the matter due to your blind loyalty to anything other than GW.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 09:06 am
woiyo wrote:
Maybe the problem is your inability to objectively anyalze the matter due to your blind loyalty to anything other than GW.

Er... Huh?

Clear as mud there, woiyo.
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 09:12 am
DrewDad wrote:
woiyo wrote:
Maybe the problem is your inability to objectively anyalze the matter due to your blind loyalty to anything other than GW.

Er... Huh?

Clear as mud there, woiyo.


Have a nice day DD..
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 09:19 am
You really are stretching on this one, Woiyo. It isn't 'blind loyalty to anyting other than GW,' it's common f*cking sense; the framers intended for there to be a judge involved for a reason.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 09:22 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
You really are stretching on this one, Woiyo. It isn't 'blind loyalty to anyting other than GW,' it's common f*cking sense; the framers intended for there to be a judge involved for a reason.

Cycloptichorn


It sure seems to be since you "and yours" ignored the post above that cites the case law supporting GW's actions as well as commentary form a prior Deputy AG.

You also seem to ignore my position.

That's OK. I see that your lack of ability to debate objectively has caused you to turn to "colorful" phrases.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 09:26 am
FISA vs. the Constitution
Congress can't usurp the president's power to spy on America's enemies.

BY ROBERT F. TURNER
Wednesday, December 28, 2005 12:01 a.m. EST

In the continuing saga of the surveillance "scandal," with some congressional Democrats denouncing President Bush as a lawbreaker and even suggesting that impeachment hearings may be in order, it is important to step back and put things in historical context. First of all, the Founding Fathers knew from experience that Congress could not keep secrets. In 1776, Benjamin Franklin and his four colleagues on the Committee of Secret Correspondence unanimously concluded that they could not tell the Continental Congress about covert assistance being provided by France to the American Revolution, because "we find by fatal experience that Congress consists of too many members to keep secrets."

When the Constitution was being ratified, John Jay--America's most experienced diplomat and George Washington's first choice to be secretary of state--wrote in Federalist No. 64 that there would be cases in which "the most useful intelligence" may be obtained if foreign sources could be "relieved from apprehensions of discovery," and noted there were many "who would rely on the secrecy of the president, but who would not confide in that of the Senate." He then praised the new Constitution for so distributing foreign-affairs powers that the president would be able "to manage the business of intelligence in such manner as prudence may suggest."

In 1790, when the first session of the First Congress appropriated money for foreign intercourse, the statute expressly required that the president "account specifically for all such expenditures of the said money as in his judgment may be made public, and also for the amount of such expenditures as he may think it advisable not to specify." They made no demand that President Washington share intelligence secrets with them. And in 1818, when a dispute arose over a reported diplomatic mission to South America, the legendary Henry Clay told his House colleagues that if the mission had been provided for from the president's contingent fund, it would not be "a proper subject for inquiry" by Congress.


For nearly 200 years it was understood by all three branches that intelligence collection--especially in wartime--was an exclusive presidential prerogative vested in the president by Article II, Section 1 of the Constitution. Washington, Madison, Jefferson, Hamilton, John Marshall and many others recognized that the grant of "executive power" to the president included control over intelligence gathering. It was not by chance that there was no provision for congressional oversight of intelligence matters in the National Security Act of 1947.

Space does not permit a discussion here of the congressional lawbreaking that took place in the wake of the Vietnam War. It is enough to observe that the Constitution is the highest law of the land, and when Congress attempts to usurp powers granted to the president, its members betray their oath of office. In certain cases, such as the War Powers Resolution and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, it might well have crossed that line.

Keep in mind that while the Carter administration asked Congress to enact the FISA statute in 1978, Attorney General Griffin Bell emphasized that the law "does not take away the power of the president under the Constitution." And in 1994, when the Clinton administration invited Congress to expand FISA to cover physical as well as electronic searches, the associate attorney general testified: "Our seeking legislation in no way should suggest that we do not believe we have inherent authority" under the Constitution. "We do," she concluded.

I'm not saying that what the president authorized was unquestionably lawful. The Supreme Court in the 1972 "Keith case" held that a warrant was required for national security wiretaps involving purely domestic targets, but expressly distinguished the case from one involving wiretapping "foreign powers" or their agents in this country. In the 1980 Truong case, the Fourth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals upheld the warrantless surveillance of a foreign power, its agent or collaborators (including U.S. citizens) when the "primary purpose" of the intercepts was for "foreign intelligence" rather than law enforcement purposes. Every court of appeals that has considered the issue has upheld an inherent presidential power to conduct warrantless foreign intelligence searches; and in 2002 the U.S. Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review, created by the FISA statute, accepted that "the president does have that authority" and noted "FISA could not encroach on the president's constitutional power."

For constitutional purposes, the joint resolution passed with but a single dissenting vote by Congress on Sept. 14, 2001, was the equivalent of a formal declaration of war. The Supreme Court held in 1800 (Bas v. Tingy), and again in 1801 (Talbot v. Seamen), that Congress could formally authorize war by joint resolution without passing a formal declaration of war; and in the post-U.N. Charter era no state has issued a formal declaration of war. Such declarations, in fact, have become as much an anachronism as the power of Congress to issue letters of marque and reprisal (outlawed by treaty in 1856). Formal declarations were historically only required when a state was initiating an aggressive war, which today is unlawful.

Section 1811 of the FISA statute recognizes that during a period of authorized war the president must have some authority to engage in electronic surveillance "without a court order." The question is whether Congress had the power to limit such authorizations to a 15-day period, which I think highly doubtful. It would be akin to Congress telling the president during wartime that he could attack a particular enemy stronghold for a maximum of 15 days.


America is at war with a dangerous enemy. Since 9/11, the president, our intelligence services and our military forces have done a truly extraordinary job--taking the war to our enemies and keeping them from conducting a single attack within this country (so far). But we are still very much at risk, and those who seek partisan political advantage by portraying efforts to monitor communications between suspected foreign terrorists and (often unknown) Americans as being akin to Nixon's "enemies lists" are serving neither their party nor their country. The leakers of this sensitive national security activity and their Capitol Hill supporters seem determined to guarantee al Qaeda a secure communications channel into this country so long as they remember to include one sympathetic permanent resident alien not previously identified by NSA or the FBI as a foreign agent on their distribution list.

Ultimately, as the courts have noted, the test is whether the legitimate government interest involved--in this instance, discovering and preventing new terrorist attacks that may endanger tens of thousands of American lives--outweighs the privacy interests of individuals who are communicating with al Qaeda terrorists. And just as those of us who fly on airplanes have accepted intrusive government searches of our luggage and person without the slightest showing of probable cause, those of us who communicate (knowingly or otherwise) with foreign terrorists will have to accept the fact that Uncle Sam may be listening.

Our Constitution is the supreme law, and it cannot be amended by a simple statute like the FISA law. Every modern president and every court of appeals that has considered this issue has upheld the independent power of the president to collect foreign intelligence without a warrant. The Supreme Court may ultimately clarify the competing claims; but until then, the president is right to continue monitoring the communications of our nation's declared enemies, even when they elect to communicate with people within our country.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 09:29 am
woiyo wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
woiyo wrote:
Maybe the problem is your inability to objectively anyalze the matter due to your blind loyalty to anything other than GW.

Er... Huh?

Clear as mud there, woiyo.


Have a nice day DD..

Back at ya.



Is it easier to simply categorize me as a Bush-hater than to discuss issues with me? Doesn't seem worth of you. Or anyone, really.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 09:29 am
Quote:


It sure seems to be since you "and yours" ignored the post above that cites the case law supporting GW's actions as well as commentary form a prior Deputy AG.

You also seem to ignore my position.


the 'case law' you cite is hardly definative or conclusive.

You forget that the whole reason this issue has come up, is because there were people who were spied upon, who according to the Post article early in the thread, had 'no connection to terrorism or AQ.'

So why were they being spied upon? And what does John Bolton have to do with all of this?

The truth will out, sooner or later; I would bet that it doesn't bode well for the President, as most people do not support the idea of unlimited presidential power.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 09:30 am
Well, I guess that "founding father" nonsense has been put to bed.!
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 09:32 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:


It sure seems to be since you "and yours" ignored the post above that cites the case law supporting GW's actions as well as commentary form a prior Deputy AG.

You also seem to ignore my position.


the 'case law' you cite is hardly definative or conclusive.

You forget that the whole reason this issue has come up, is because there were people who were spied upon, who according to the Post article early in the thread, had 'no connection to terrorism or AQ.'

So why were they being spied upon? And what does John Bolton have to do with all of this?

The truth will out, sooner or later; I would bet that it doesn't bode well for the President, as most people do not support the idea of unlimited presidential power.

Cycloptichorn


Gee, I always thought when a Court renders a decision, it is CONCLUSIVE and DIFINITIVE. Except of course if you disagree with the position.

Who is streatching no Cyclo? Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
 

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