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America... Spying on Americans

 
 
pachelbel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 01:38 am
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 01:49 am
Maybe oversimplified but I strongly doubt that. Bush is a dry drunk -- what would anyone expect?
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 01:49 am
(I was looking tonight for a camera in my TV -- how about you?)
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pachelbel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 01:52 am
Just like Brave New World. Big Brother really is watching you. This should make all the paranoid people freak out. Watch what books you check out of the library, homeland security jerks are spying on YOU! They are probably reading this very message! How free do you feel, now, America?
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 01:54 am
If anyone is naive enough to believe we are free. Free of what? Dandruff?
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pachelbel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 01:56 am
Oh - forgot to say

GOOD NIGHT

to Homeland Security jerkos. Hope you've had lots of fun reading emails! Must make for exciting reading. Not to mention tapping in on telephone calls! Wow! I am impressed.

What a free and democratic society we've become.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 02:00 am
That's "Homeland Scrutiny." Security always gives the ignorant a false send of...security.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 06:07 am
I'm going to post this in full. It is the most concise piece I've read on the dangers flowing from this administration's zest to remove checks and balances to its powers.

Quote:
The Hidden State Steps Forward
by JONATHAN SCHELL

[from the January 9, 2006 issue]

When the New York Times revealed that George W. Bush had ordered the National Security Agency to wiretap the foreign calls of American citizens without seeking court permission, as is indisputably required by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), passed by Congress in 1978, he faced a decision. Would he deny the practice, or would he admit it? He admitted it. But instead of expressing regret, he took full ownership of the deed, stating that his order had been entirely justified, that he had in fact renewed it thirty times, that he would continue to renew it and--going even more boldly on the offensive--that those who had made his law-breaking known had committed a "shameful act." As justification, he offered two arguments, one derisory, the other deeply alarming. The derisory one was that Congress, by authorizing him to use force after September 11, had authorized him to suspend FISA, although that law is unmentioned in the resolution. Thus has Bush informed the members of a supposedly co-equal branch of government of what, unbeknownst to themselves, they were thinking when they cast their vote. The alarming argument is that as Commander in Chief he possesses "inherent" authority to suspend laws in wartime. But if he can suspend FISA at his whim and in secret, then what law can he not suspend? What need is there, for example, to pass or not pass the Patriot Act if any or all of its provisions can be secretly exceeded by the President?

Bush's choice marks a watershed in the evolution of his Administration. Previously when it was caught engaging in disgraceful, illegal or merely mistaken or incompetent behavior, he would simply deny it. "We have found the weapons of mass destruction!" "We do not torture!" However, further developments in the torture matter revealed a shift. Even as he denied the existence of torture, he and his officials began to defend his right to order it. His Attorney General, Alberto Gonzales, refused at his confirmation hearings to state that the torture called waterboarding, in which someone is brought to the edge of drowning, was prohibited. Then when Senator John McCain sponsored a bill prohibiting cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment of prisoners, Bush threatened to veto the legislation to which it was attached. It was only in the face of majority votes in both houses against such treatment that he retreated from his claim.

But in the wiretapping matter, he has so far exhibited no such vacillation. Secret law-breaking has been supplanted by brazen law-breaking. The difference is critical. If abuses of power are kept secret, there is still the possibility that, when exposed, they will be stopped. But if they are exposed and still permitted to continue, then every remedy has failed, and the abuse is permanently ratified. In this case, what will be ratified is a presidency that has risen above the law.

The danger is not abstract or merely symbolic. Bush's abuses of presidential power are the most extensive in American history. He has launched an aggressive war ("war of choice," in today's euphemism) on false grounds. He has presided over a system of torture and sought to legitimize it by specious definitions of the word. He has asserted a wholesale right to lock up American citizens and others indefinitely without any legal showing or the right to see a lawyer or anyone else. He has kidnapped people in foreign countries and sent them to other countries, where they were tortured. In rationalizing these and other acts, his officials have laid claim to the unlimited, uncheckable and unreviewable powers he has asserted in the wiretapping case. He has tried to drop a thick shroud of secrecy over these and other actions.

There is a name for a system of government that wages aggressive war, deceives its citizens, violates their rights, abuses power and breaks the law, rejects judicial and legislative checks on itself, claims power without limit, tortures prisoners and acts in secret. It is dictatorship.

The Administration of George W. Bush is not a dictatorship, but it does manifest the characteristics of one in embryonic form. Until recently, these were developing and growing in the twilight world of secrecy. Even within the executive branch itself, Bush seemed to govern outside the normally constituted channels of the Cabinet and to rely on what Secretary of State Colin Powell's chief of staff has called a "cabal." Former Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill reported the same thing. Cabinet meetings were for show. Real decisions were made elsewhere, out of sight. Another White House official, John DiIulio, has commented that there was "a complete lack of a policy apparatus" in the White House. "What you've got is everything, and I mean everything, being run by the political arm." As in many Communist states, a highly centralized party, in this case the Republican Party, was beginning to forge a parallel apparatus at the heart of government, a semi-hidden state-within-a-state, by which the real decisions were made.

With Bush's defense of his wiretapping, the hidden state has stepped into the open. The deeper challenge Bush has thrown down, therefore, is whether the country wants to embrace the new form of government he is creating by executive fiat or to continue with the old constitutional form. He is now in effect saying, "Yes, I am above the law--I am the law, which is nothing more than what I and my hired lawyers say it is--and if you don't like it, I dare you to do something about it."

Members of Congress have no choice but to accept the challenge. They did so once before, when Richard Nixon, who said, "When the President does it, that means it's not illegal," posed a similar threat to the Constitution. The only possible answer is to inform Bush forthwith that if he continues in his defiance, he will be impeached.

If Congress accepts his usurpation of its legislative power, they will be no Congress and might as well stop meeting. Either the President must uphold the laws of the United States, which are Congress's laws, or he must leave office.
http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20060109&s=schell
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 07:32 am
Debra_Law wrote:
woiyo wrote:
""Of course it should continue," he said. "And nobody is suggesting that the president shouldn't do this." ""

Excpet of course, the Bushwackers who are not concerned wth security or objective analysis.


Well, now you're following in our President's footsteps and lying. The people who oppose Bush's tyrannical grab of power are just as concerned with our national security as everyone else. We must be wary of not only enemies of our freedom from without the government, but also from within. I am in favor of the government protecting our national security so long as the government stays within legally-established parameters and remains accountable. Our national security concerns are amply addressed by following the law. Our national security concerns do not require BUSH to become a monarch and to exert unlimited powers without any accountability.

Powell was clear that we should target people with known ties to international terrorism for surveillance, but Bush should get a warrant as required by our Constitution and FISA. Rather than allow employees of the NSA determine if probable cause exists to conduct domestic electronic surveillance on the target, the law requires that the probable cause determination must be made by a neutral magistrate. No matter how well-meaning the fox might be, you don't put him in complete control of guarding the chicken coop. Independent oversight is required. Those checks and balances were built into our constitutional system to protect the people from tyranny and oppression.


You fail to add that Mr. Powell also said that we should continue this practice and I also agree, as previously posted, that I would have preferred that GW get the warrant. You also misrepresent the facts when you do not state that the surveillance was targeted only at communication between the US and foreign soil. I understand there may have been errors in this regard.

From your posts. it appears you want to restrict the Govt ability in this regard. It seems to me, we need a better/faster method of obtaining the warrants then the present procedures allow.

The problem is NOT the President doing what he is doing. The problem is the procedures that restrict the Govt's ability to work quickly.
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 08:08 am
woiyo - You can't get any more immediater than "do it and then get a warrant withing 72 hours."

How can that not be fast enough?
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 08:11 am
There are arguments that support the fact that it could take longer than 72 hours just to prepare the case.

Maybe, one of the Attorny's who regularly post here can shed some light in this regard.
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 08:17 am
You also seem to have missed that this authorization of "wide net" eavesdropping was NOT restricted to foreign calls.

New Mexico's governor Richardson was also eavesdropped on under this authorization just to hear what he had to say to Bolton. Is that okay?

Who else from the opposition party has had their calls monitored? Does that concern you?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 08:22 am
It concerns me if the NSA went beyond what the President authorized. That is a different argument though. One that does not blame the president for every ill in the world and one many will not take up because of that.
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 08:25 am
The NSA was directed by Cheney to eavesdrop on Richardson according to the article I posted yesterday.
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woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 08:30 am
squinney wrote:
You also seem to have missed that this authorization of "wide net" eavesdropping was NOT restricted to foreign calls.

New Mexico's governor Richardson was also eavesdropped on under this authorization just to hear what he had to say to Bolton. Is that okay?

Who else from the opposition party has had their calls monitored? Does that concern you?


It's easy to say the VP authorized it. Now go prove it.

If you can prove it, then it is a great concern to me.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 08:31 am
woiyo wrote:
There are arguments that support the fact that it could take longer than 72 hours just to prepare the case.

Maybe, one of the Attorny's who regularly post here can shed some light in this regard.

If they found the law too restrictive, then they should have sought to modify the law. Instead, they were ordered to ignore the law.
0 Replies
 
Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 08:32 am
squinney wrote:
The NSA was directed by Cheney to eavesdrop on Richardson according to the article I posted yesterday.


You'll have to hit him with a baseball bat for him to get it, and then probably not!

Anon
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 08:37 am
squinney wrote:
Oh, you mean like Gov. Richardson of NM?

Quote:
December 26, 2005 -- Colin Powell says Bush's use of NSA to conduct warrantless wiretaps acceptable. On December 25, former Secretary of State Colin Powell told ABC News This Week that the Bush administration's use of NSA to spy on U.S. citizens without a Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court warrant was legitimate. However, Powell, himself, was the target of such eavesdropping by NSA. While he was Powell's deputy undersecretary for international arms control, unconfirmed US ambassador to the UN John Bolton, on the orders of Dick Cheney, instructed NSA to conduct domestic eavesdropping on phone calls between Powell and New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson. Of primary interest to Bolton and Cheney was Powell's green light to Richardson to conduct diplomatic back channel nuclear talks with North Korea's UN ambassador in New York.

From WMR, May 15, 2005: "Intelligence community insiders claim that a number of State Department and other government officials may have been subject to NSA "training" surveillance and that transcripts between them and foreign officials likely ended up in the possession of Bolton and his neo-conservative political allies, including such members of Vice President Dick Cheney's staff as David Wurmser (a former assistant to Bolton at State), John Hannah, and Lewis "Scooter" Libby.

Possible affected individuals include: . . . New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson and his telephone conversations with Secretary of State Powell and North Korea's deputy UN ambassador Han Song Ryol . . ."

This editor earlier reported this surveillance on Online Journal on May 5, 2005: "NSA conducted telephone surveillance of phone calls between Secretary of State Colin Powell and New Mexico Democratic Governor and former ambassador to the UN Bill Richardson concerning a visit by a North Korean UN delegation to New Mexico to meet with the governor in an attempt to reinstate direct negotiations with the U.S. government over nuclear issues." and on Online Journal, April 25, 2005.

On April 26, 2005 at Noon EDT, New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson was being interviewed on Fox News Channel about the nomination of John Bolton. As he was about to comment on the above article, the satellite signal to Santa Fe suddenly went dead and the Fox News host quickly and with apparent foreknowledge blamed the dark screen on a lost satellite signal. Laughing



Gov. Bill Richardson's phone conversations with Colin Powell: What was Bush's probable cause to conclude they were discussing committing acts of terrorism?


Pure speculation with no evidence though.
0 Replies
 
Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 08:37 am
I'm curious, have we proven there were no WMD's yet?? How about missles that could reach the U.S in 45 minutes. Where are the nucular weapons Saddam was developing.

At some point, you have to ******* wake up!!

Anon
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 08:37 am
I get it. Watergate politics, all over again.
0 Replies
 
 

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