America... Spying on Americans

I don't know if I missed this while reading the article or if I read it and just forgot it.

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Several senior government officials say that when the special operation first began, there were few controls on it and little formal oversight outside the N.S.A. The agency can choose its eavesdropping targets and does not have to seek approval from Justice Department or other Bush administration officials.

I had been under the impression that the attorney general was approving the searches in lieu of the FISA court, but it looks like not even that.

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Ticomaya wrote:

Sorry blatham (Mr. Salon.com) .... I just can't past that part where you haughtily exclaim that the conservatives turn to their own media outlets, and yet are reluctant to admit that you libbies do the very same thing.

Integrity please. 2 out of 52 links to Salon, as you'll recall. If you like though, we could keep a list over one week of what each of us read and then post those two lists on this thread. Easy enough to do. What do you say, tico?

The other day, you pasted in a page on Groseclose and Milyo (media bias). I informed you that their work had been discussed here earlier (they'd found Fox to be a centrist outlet) and that the two chaps involved are Olin fellows (Olin funds NOTHING BUT conservative ideologues, and I provide some background data for you on that).

That evening Milyo was interviewed by Tucker Carlson. I've just checked and can't find the video of that interview. Which is a real pity because I would have had you watch it the first time with the sound off. And if by chance you had an FBI friend trained in observing body language, I would have had you invite him over for the viewing, with the task put to him of intepreting Milyo. Perhaps no one told him to "look at the camera, please" but I don't think your FBI buddy would have suggested that as the causal factor for what he'd be observing. I've never ever seen anyone as shifty-eyed as this fellow. It was uncomfortable to watch.

But regardless of that...here's a bit from the transcript...

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As a result of this activity, this person was tried and convicted.

"Faris admitted that upon returning to the United States from Pakistan in April 2002, he researched "gas cutters" - the equipment for severing bridge suspension cables - and the New York City bridge on the Internet. Between April 2002 and March 2003, he sent several coded messages through another individual to his longtime friend in Pakistan, indicating he had been unsuccessful in his attempts to obtain the necessary equipment. Faris admitted to traveling to New York City in late 2002 to examine the bridge, and said he concluded that the plot to destroy the bridge by severing cables was unlikely to succeed because of the bridge's security and structure. In early 2003, he sent a message that "the weather is too hot" - a coded message indicating that the bridge plot was unlikely to succeed.

Federal law prohibits the providing of material support and resources to designated foreign terrorist organizations. Al Qaeda was designated by the Secretary of State in 1999 to be a foreign terrorist organization, and redesignated as such in October 2001.

The Faris case was prosecuted by attorneys from the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Eastern District of Virginia and the Counterterrorism Section of the Criminal Division, U.S. Department of Justice, along with assistance from the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Southern District of Ohio. The investigation was led by the Federal Bureau of Investigation."

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2003/October/03_crm_589.htm

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So you found him "shifty," did you?

Did you find anything wrong with the study itself, or you doubt its findings because Milyo is "shifty," and an Olin fellow?

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Sorry, but it was in-your-face as if the fellow was wearing a really odd hat or a Groucho mask. He didn't seem fearful or speaker-nervous, which could account for it. Truly remarkable.

I haven't read the study. And I won't bother, I'll leave it to others more inclined to reviewing such methodologies.

But Milyo's personal bias was clearly evident in the interview (see transcript on MSNBC site, and if the video becomes available, I'll link it in when it does).

The outcome itself (eg washington times no further right than Olympia Snowe!) is, on the face of it, pretty laughable.

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tico

So how about the reading survey? You up for some honesty and forthrightness?

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blatham wrote:

The outcome itself (eg washington times no further right than Olympia Snowe!) is, on the face of it, pretty laughable.

I think any claim that the MSM isn't liberal is pretty laughable.

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blatham wrote:

tico

So how about the reading survey? You up for some honesty and forthrightness?

Sure ... do it again.

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Ticomaya wrote:

blatham wrote:
tico

So how about the reading survey? You up for some honesty and forthrightness?

Sure ... do it again.

We haven't done exactly this previously. The idea is that, as we read our various sources each day through the next week, we note down where we have gone for information, and then post it here. Wanna?

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blatham wrote:

Ticomaya wrote:
blatham wrote:
tico

So how about the reading survey? You up for some honesty and forthrightness?

Sure ... do it again.

We haven't done exactly this previously. The idea is that, as we read our various sources each day through the next week, we note down where we have gone for information, and then post it here. Wanna?

As extremely interesting as that sounds, I think I'll pass.

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Blatham, did you say that of the last 52 links you have posted, only 2 were from Salon?

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Slate Magazine was launched with the esteemed Michael Kinsley as Chief Editor. Kinsley, as anyone knows, has not an ounce of left wing bias in his body. LOL!

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His entire body is one gigantic, pasty left wing.

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Back to the topic at hand

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So, according to law the AG should have this in writing. An agent of a foreign power is not a foreign power so communication of an agent to a foreign power may or may not apply depending on how you interpret communication between foreign powers.

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(B) there is no substantial likelihood that the surveillance will acquire the contents of any communication to which a United States person is a party; and

This is the sticking point that makes the survelliance in violation of the law if there is the likelyhood of acquiring the contents of a communication to which a US person is party.

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(C) the proposed minimization procedures with respect to such surveillance meet the definition of minimization procedures under section 1801 (h) of this title; and

The survelliance must meet standards set out elsewhere.

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if the Attorney General reports such minimization procedures and any changes thereto to the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence and the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence at least thirty days prior to their effective date, unless the Attorney General determines immediate action is required and notifies the committees immediately of such minimization procedures and the reason for their becoming effective immediately.
(2) An electronic surveillance authorized by this subsection may be conducted only in accordance with the Attorney General's certification and the minimization procedures adopted by him. The Attorney General shall assess compliance with such procedures and shall report such assessments to the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence and the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence under the provisions of section 1808 (a) of this title.

It appears they did report it partially but unclear if they met all the requirements.

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the certification is necessary to determine the legality of the surveillance under section 1806 (f) of this title.

It appears there should be a written application on file which should be available to be subpeonaed by Congress since their is a question of legality. We can only wait and see if such a document exists.

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the court shall not have jurisdiction to grant any order approving electronic surveillance directed solely as described in paragraph (1)(A) of subsection (a) of this section unless such surveillance may involve the acquisition of communications of any United States person.

It appears that the court has jurisidiction if the surveillance can aquire the communication of a US person. It is stated in the law twice. Once denying that right to the AG and again giving the court jurisdiction in that case.

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As to the Aldrich Ames case. There were concerns that Ames could have the search thrown out due to this provision..

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Luckily for prosecutors Ames agreed to plead guilty so the search wasn't tested in courts.

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Ticomaya wrote:

blatham wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
blatham wrote:
tico

So how about the reading survey? You up for some honesty and forthrightness?

Sure ... do it again.

We haven't done exactly this previously. The idea is that, as we read our various sources each day through the next week, we note down where we have gone for information, and then post it here. Wanna?

As extremely interesting as that sounds, I think I'll pass.

Yes.

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McGentrix wrote:

Blatham, did you say that of the last 52 links you have posted, only 2 were from Salon?

Several months ago, following upon certain discussions with tico re range of information sources referred to and linked here, I offered to go back and tally up the last 50 links that both of us had entered into our posts. I started with mine, and then posted that tally (eg NY Times - 5 links... rather than 50 total, I had tallied 52). Of those 52 links entered, two were to Salon.

I then began to go through tico's posts. What I hadn't realized was how many posts he had made to "favorite Mennonite receipes", "joke of the day involving platypus penises", etc (meaning, I hope obviously, much else than political threads). There was no way of isolating those threads and so the exercise began to look like it might take a week full time, and I spat at his avatar and stopped.

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Oh.

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This piece by Dahlia Lithwick at Slate is extraordinary...

http://www.slate.com/id/2132983/

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The author of Blathams link, Dahlia Lithwick, sums it up nicely:

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America... Spying on Americans

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