9
   

America... Spying on Americans

 
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 10:39 am
Er.... Foreign Tico. That issue isn't under debate.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 10:39 am
Ticomaya wrote:

The court seems to be saying that the President has an "inherent constitutional authority to conduct warrantless foreign intelligence surveillance."


Was that questioned as well ?
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 10:45 am
DrewDad wrote:
Er.... Foreign Tico. That issue isn't under debate.


Correct ... foreign, DD. As I understand it, that is what the focus of the secret NSA program is: Monitoring telephone calls of agents of a foreign power (al Qaeda) when the calls are initiated within the US.

Are you suggesting al Qaeda isn't a "foreign power"?
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 10:51 am
Ticomaya wrote:

The court seems to be saying that the President has an "inherent constitutional authority to conduct warrantless foreign intelligence surveillance."


Yes, that was decide in Truong (if you read the first part), but regulated by FISA. I have an inherent right to freedom of speech -- within the laws of the land. I cannot incite violence. FISA was enacted to prevent his inherent right to conduct foreign intelligence from conflicting with the right of citizens to be secure against unreasonable search and seizure.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 10:52 am
So in sumation Tico it's ok to have "secret" surveillance of US citizens (meaning without judicial review) because Clinton may have done it (whomever)? Where, in your mind Tico, is the line that separates personal liberty from national security by a judgement that circumvents judicial oversight?
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 10:54 am
woiyo wrote:


Apparently, an objective analysis is beyond your ability.
It is not at all beyond my ability. It seems to be beyond yours.

Quote:
What you post (which is vague at best since there is no definition of a US PERSON
A US person isn't defined? How on earth can you say that? US PERSON is defined in the law
US CODE wrote:
(i) "United States person" means a citizen of the United States, an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence (as defined in section 1101 (a)(20) of title 8), an unincorporated association a substantial number of members of which are citizens of the United States or aliens lawfully admitted for permanent residence, or a corporation which is incorporated in the United States, but does not include a corporation or an association which is a foreign power, as defined in subsection (a)(1), (2), or (3) of this section.
)
Quote:
may very well have been replaced by the case law described in my earlier post.
Case law from 1972 can't replace US law from 1978. That is just silly.

Quote:
What I find amusing, is how you Bushwackers are more concerned with "GOTCHA HATRED", then to objectively analyze what GW did and is trying to accomplish.
You are not being objective woiyo as evidence by your arguments that are easily swatted down.

Quote:
I would have preferred he went to FISA to obtain the warrents, which I am sure would have been approved but taken a long period of time to obtain. However, in this day of electronic communications, speed is necessary in the intelligence community.
Not really, as has been pointed out so many times. FISA warrants are quick and easy to get and can be obtained after the fact.

Quote:
Statutes can be amended through legislation and this may be something that needs to be better defined to allow a President the ability to conduct these types of searches.
The statutes are already quite clear. Your sputtering and pretense that the statutes don't exist notwithstanding.

Quote:
Until someone can show me more than 2 instances whereby communications between 2 US Citizens on our soil, I will take the administration at it's word that they are only looking at specific communications ocurring between foreign soil and US Soil. To me , I feel it is important to our security.

I am sure some of you will feel otherwise, but I feel that that opinion will be based not upon logic, but on partisenship.
Partisanship is demanding you be shown then ignoring the facts when you are shown. You are the guilty one of partisanship here woiyo
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 10:55 am
Ticomaya wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
Er.... Foreign Tico. That issue isn't under debate.


Correct ... foreign, DD. As I understand it, that is what the focus of the secret NSA program is: Monitoring telephone calls of agents of a foreign power (al Qaeda) when the calls are initiated within the US.

Are you suggesting al Qaeda isn't a "foreign power"?

It's not whether the power is foreign or not, Tico. It's whether the parties and soil are foreign.

I'm a bit baffled as to your logic. How can a call initicated from within the US be foreign?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 11:01 am
They are scrambling, that's why the logic gets more and more convoluted as the thread goes on...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 11:05 am
Scrambling. Or scrabble-ing.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 11:06 am
Damn all typos and misspellings.

I meant "initiated."
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 11:06 am
Careering or careening? That one always gets my goat....
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 11:12 am
DrewDad wrote:
Careering or careening? That one always gets my goat....


For some people careening is a career :wink:
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 11:16 am
If the republicans lose congress next year, the possibility of an impeachment looms. More certain, given that same electoral outcome, a congress no longer controlled by republicans will become far more aggressive in oversight investigations of administration's acts and policies (much secretive) over the last 6 years.

Tooth and nail is how the RNC will fight in the coming months.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 11:22 am
As far as I noticed, no-one has posted Posner's opinion in the Washington Post as of today.

WaPo, December 21, 2005, page A31

Quote:

Richard A. Posner

Our Domestic Intelligence Crisis

We've learned that the Defense Department is deeply involved in domestic intelligence (intelligence concerning threats to national security that unfold on U.S. soil). The department's National Security Agency has been conducting, outside the framework of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, electronic surveillance of U.S. citizens within the United States. Other Pentagon agencies, notably the one known as Counterintelligence Field Activity (CIFA), have, as described in Walter Pincus's recent articles in The Post, been conducting domestic intelligence on a large scale. Although the CIFA's formal mission is to prevent attacks on military installations in the United States, the scale of its activities suggests a broader concern with domestic security. Other Pentagon agencies have gotten into the domestic intelligence act, such as the Information Dominance Center, which developed the Able Danger data-mining program.


These programs are criticized as grave threats to civil liberties. They are not. Their significance is in flagging the existence of gaps in our defenses against terrorism. The Defense Department is rushing to fill those gaps, though there may be better ways.


The collection, mainly through electronic means, of vast amounts of personal data is said to invade privacy. But machine collection and processing of data cannot, as such, invade privacy. Because of their volume, the data are first sifted by computers, which search for names, addresses, phone numbers, etc., that may have intelligence value. This initial sifting, far from invading privacy (a computer is not a sentient being), keeps most private data from being read by any intelligence officer.


The data that make the cut are those that contain clues to possible threats to national security. The only valid ground for forbidding human inspection of such data is fear that they might be used to blackmail or otherwise intimidate the administration's political enemies. That danger is more remote than at any previous period of U.S. history. Because of increased political partisanship, advances in communications technology and more numerous and competitive media, American government has become a sieve. No secrets concerning matters that would interest the public can be kept for long. And the public would be far more interested to learn that public officials were using private information about American citizens for base political ends than to learn that we have been rough with terrorist suspects ?- a matter that was quickly exposed despite efforts at concealment.


The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act makes it difficult to conduct surveillance of U.S. citizens and lawful permanent residents unless they are suspected of being involved in terrorist or other hostile activities. That is too restrictive. Innocent people, such as unwitting neighbors of terrorists, may, without knowing it, have valuable counterterrorist information. Collecting such information is of a piece with data-mining projects such as Able Danger.


The goal of national security intelligence is to prevent a terrorist attack, not just punish the attacker after it occurs, and the information that enables the detection of an impending attack may be scattered around the world in tiny bits. A much wider, finer-meshed net must be cast than when investigating a specific crime. Many of the relevant bits may be in the e-mails, phone conversations or banking records of U.S. citizens, some innocent, some not so innocent. The government is entitled to those data, but just for the limited purpose of protecting national security.


The Pentagon's rush to fill gaps in domestic intelligence reflects the disarray in this vital yet neglected area of national security. The principal domestic intelligence agency is the FBI, but it is primarily a criminal investigation agency that has been struggling, so far with limited success, to transform itself. It is having trouble keeping its eye on the ball; an FBI official is quoted as having told the Senate that environmental and animal rights militants pose the biggest terrorist threats in the United States. If only that were so.


Most other nations, such as Britain, Canada, France, Germany and Israel, many with longer histories of fighting terrorism than the United States, have a domestic intelligence agency that is separate from its national police force, its counterpart to the FBI. We do not. We also have no official with sole and comprehensive responsibility for domestic intelligence. It is no surprise that gaps in domestic intelligence are being filled by ad hoc initiatives.


We must do better. The terrorist menace, far from receding, grows every day. This is not only because al Qaeda likes to space its attacks, often by many years, but also because weapons of mass destruction are becoming ever more accessible to terrorist groups and individuals. The writer is a judge on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 7th Circuit and a senior lecturer in law at the University of Chicago. He will take questions at 2 p.m. today at www.washingtonpost. com.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 11:22 am
In an effort to reclaim persidential power lost following Johnson/Nixon, Bush may very well cause a step back due to abuse of power. Whiplash.Backlash.Lashgoth. whatever.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 11:23 am
From Atrios.blog

Quote:
More on Posner


From Marty Lederman:


What's remarkable about Posner's Op-Ed is that his whole point is that the FISA law on this presently is (in his view) woefully inadequate to the task. He never even mentions the serious implication of this point, which is that, if he is right that FISA currently prohibits this -- and he is right -- then the Administration's data mining for the past four years has been a violation of criminal law. (No specious suggestions from Posner, who knows better, that this was authorized by the AUMF: He's forthright that the law needs to be amended.)

Posner may be right that current law is too restrictive. Congress should have that debate. But isn't it troubling that an esteemed federal judge seems so indifferent to the fact that, in the meantime -- before the Nation and the Congress have had the opportunity to debate Posner's proposal -- the Nation's Chief Executive is systematically authorizing criminal felonies?

This is the way Posner characterizes what's been happening: "The Defense Department is rushing to fill [the] gaps." I suppose that's one way of putting it. (I can imagine lawyers for criminal defendants with appeals to Posner's court: "Your honor, as you've written, this criminal restriction is very unwise and needs amending. My client was merely rushing to fill the statutory gap.")

Here's the most chilling line in Posner's column, taking euphemism to a new level: "It is no surprise that gaps in domestic intelligence are being filled by ad hoc initiatives." That's Posner's kinder, gentler way of saying "It is no surprise that current federal laws, which unwisely criminalize this conduct, are being circumvented by the President's authorization to commit felonies."
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 11:26 am
dyslexia wrote:
So in sumation Tico it's ok to have "secret" surveillance of US citizens (meaning without judicial review) because Clinton may have done it (whomever)? Where, in your mind Tico, is the line that separates personal liberty from national security by a judgement that circumvents judicial oversight?


No, dyslexia.

Now, I'm going to put this in caps, because you've missed it 3 times now, I believe. (I'm also typing this very slowly .....)

I HAVE NEVER SAID THE WARRANTLESS SURVEILLANCE WAS "OK BECAUSE CLINTON DID IT, OR MAY HAVE DONE IT (ALTHOUGH IT CERTAINLY DOES APPEAR HE DID IT). WHAT I HAVE DONE, SEVERAL TIMES NOW, IS POINT OUT THAT CLINTON (THROUGH GORELICK) WAS OF THE OPINION THAT HE -- IN FACT -- HAD THAT AUTHORITY.

IF I EVER CLAIM SOMETHING IS OKAY SIMPLY BECAUSE CLINTON DID IT, I NEED TO BE MEDICATED OR TAKEN OUT BACK AND SHOT.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 11:27 am
Imagine that this case is still going on; that Rove is indicted soon; that Iraq fails to get substantially better in the next six months. How is it possible that the Republicans aren't going to get creamed in '06? Unless the Dems f*ck it up terribly, I believe they will pick up some seats.

I have another question: what else is the NY Times not telling us for 'national security' reasons?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 11:28 am
Ticomaya wrote:
kuvasz wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
kuvasz wrote:
tico, you really should go back to the original sources instead of relying on the selective cherry picking of propagandists like York.

<snip>

gorelick was talking about warrantless searches conducted on foreign powers. As cited earlier, an even more clear distinction was made under FISA as to what "Foreign Power" was defined as, and still further which target definition was included as acceptable for warrantless electronic surveillance authorization.


Al Qaeda is a "foreign power." I would certainly argue it is a "group engaged in international terrorism or activities in preparation therefor." Do you disagree?


Your argument is with the Congress of the United States. They wrote the FISA law. and while the definition of a "foreign power" under 1801 included "a group engaged in international terrorism or activities in preparation therefore" they also specifically did not include such enties as subject to warrantless surveillance legally under the section 1802.

so just what are you trying to accomplish here with that question? the statutes already answered that question. just because you don't like the answer you ask it again?
[/color]

What I'm trying to accomplish, kuvasz, is make some sense out of your prior post where you complained about my posting Byron York's article about Jamie Gorelick's July 14, 1994 testimony before Congress. ....... right after you pompously instructed me to go read the source --I cautioned you not to rely upon sophist, advocacy journalism that leaves out important details from cited sources to support ideological positions not based upon the totality of the facts you highlighted that Gorelick was referring to warrantless searches of "foreign powers" or their agents. You seemed to be drawing a distinction between what Gorelick was advocating, and what the Bush Administration is done. At least that's what I interpreted you last sentence to mean:

your interpretation was wrong.


"York is stating that since Gorelick maintained that Clinton had the authority to conduct warrantless searches on foreign powers and their agents, then Bush had a right to conduct warrantless electronic surveillance on Americans on American soil suspected of terrorism, even thought FISA specifically stated otherwise."

If you were trying to make such a distinction, the distinction was not made by me, but by Congress in the FISA law, the law Bush broke

I would point out that the focus of the eavesdropping under the NSA secret program is on suspected al Qaeda targets -- which certainly do qualify as a "foreign power" (as defined) or an agent therefor. Thus, it seems clear that Jamie Gorelick, at least in 1994, was advocating that the President had the inherent authority to authorize warrantless searches on al Qaeda operatives for intelligence gathering purposes. Your argument is with Jamie Gorelick.

no, yours and york's are with congress

Now, if you weren't trying to distinguish the warrantless searches under Bush, with the circumstances under which Gorelick was arguing the President had authority to conduct warrantless searches, you probably need to explain the meaning of your above quote. What was your point in highlighting the fact that Gorelick was referring to "foreign powers" in her testimony?

york pointed out the position of the clinton administration on warrantless searches of foreign powers prior to the change in the FISA law on warrantless surveillanes that exluded terrorists. and york went so far as to deign to imply that since the clinton administration did not comment on this change they still maintained their earlier position on this matter

silence on an issue is not an admission of advocacy.


and i would point out that the subsection defining "foreign power" excluded definitions (4-6) as relevant to statute 1802, viz., terrorist orgnizations

shall we use the proper term here about Bush's actions, i.e., "surveillance" not "searches?" the reference highlight was obvious. it defined her subject matter, which was later further delineated by the definitions held relevant in FISA statute 1802.


[quote="kuv"][quote="Tico"][quote="kuvasz"]<snip>

York is stating that since Gorelick maintained that Clinton had the authority to conduct warrantless searches on foreign powers and their agents, then Bush had a right to conduct warrantless electronic surveillance on Americans on American soil suspected of terrorism, even thought FISA specifically stated otherwise.


Did York state that? Really? I didn't see Bush's name mentioned in his article.[/quote]

haha, cute. I note that you didn't disagree with that assessment did you?

york wrote that article without any context of current events. imagine that. all on his own he went back and reviewed "obscure" testimony for an article with no relationship to the daily news.

York's Article[/quote]

You said York stated that because Gorelick made the argument she did in 1994, that Bush had a right to conduct warrantless searches of Americans on American soil. That was untrue. The readers of the piece are free to draw their own conclusions from the article -- even incorrect conclusions such as the one you drew.

readers of that piece are of course invited to draw their own conclusions. what was yours?[/quote]
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 11:29 am
DrewDad wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
Er.... Foreign Tico. That issue isn't under debate.


Correct ... foreign, DD. As I understand it, that is what the focus of the secret NSA program is: Monitoring telephone calls of agents of a foreign power (al Qaeda) when the calls are initiated within the US.

Are you suggesting al Qaeda isn't a "foreign power"?

It's not whether the power is foreign or not, Tico. It's whether the parties and soil are foreign.

I'm a bit baffled as to your logic. How can a call initicated from within the US be foreign?


Because it involves an agent of a foreign power.
0 Replies
 
 

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