JLNobody wrote:Anon, while that is often the case in practice (with the indirect but real collusion of corporate America), it isn't necessarily so, at least not in principle. Citizen groups, by means of the electoral system, can influence the power and actual practices of government and big business.
In other words, we must be active and vigilant rather than pessimistic and passive.
JLN,
If I told you the money and time I spent tying to do something about the 2004 election, it would make you sick. I basically left the Forum scene for the entire 2005 year because I was so upset with the outcome. I had one small forum that was totally non-political that I poked around in once in a while. I didn't talk to anyone, I burned my bridges, I even sent CI a nasty note that I haven't really apologized for yet. Before we leave, I have to wander across the bridge and buy that guy lunch!! I was really unbelieving of the election results. Not that they were rigged, but that they were what they were. That's what has made me decide to leave this country. I'd be gone now if I hadn't spent a good part of 2005 in surgery or rehab. By July, JayBea and I are in Rome permanently because I think this country has lost any moral fibre it has, if it ever had it to begin with!
Anon
So you are going to Italy permanently?
Where are you going to go when you find out that Italy is no better in terms of how govt works.
They have had more govts since WW2 then any other country,so they arent perfect either.
Anon, I know how Polyannish my response to you sounded, but my statement was about principles of organization. We CAN in principle, because of the structure of our political system change things without violence, but I know that won't happen until we have "hit bottom," as it were. Cicerone's and your disgust is warranted, no doubtt. I share it both against the Bushies and the American people (at least the red states). It seems that we just havn't hit bottom yet. Our level of living is still too high for actual rebellion, and those of us who are REALLY poor have no power and little knowledge of how to affect the system.
By the way, I think the politics of Italy is even worse than ours right now. But I do love Italy and can easily imagine a life there. Good luck.
JLN,
This country is not the one I was taught it was, It never has been. It just took a long time for me to realize it, and now that I do, I can't stay here.
Anon
Anon-Voter wrote: By July, JayBea and I are in Rome permanently
By pure chance I've found a photo from your last visit there ... :wink:
Is that Anon in the background watching Audrey and Greg trying out their new scooter?
Seriously, Anon, I too was taught by our comic books and movies that Americans are always "the good guys", but a quick look at history shows that is not always so. I like to keep in mind that most governments throughout the world and throughout time are almost always "bad"--i.e., they'll exploit the resources of other countries whenever they can get away with it--but that the capacity for compassion, generosity and love exist--as potentialities--in most citizens of all countries. That has lowered my expectations for both societies (governments) and individuals to more realistic, but not completely cynical, levels.
We all know that "power corrupts." This country has been a superpower too long, and our people and government misused it for their own ego.
Walter,
If only I was that good looking, not to mention have that much hair
Anon
JLN,
My mistake was that I thought we had been changing things over the past 55-60 years, only to find we haven't really. There's still the hate, the bigotry, the greed, the avarice, not to mention the white elitism and arrogance. The American attitude now is "I've got mine, screw you!"
I thought we had learned from VietNam, but we haven't. We make war for profit, not ideals. We talk ideals, but we don't mean it, it's all about power and money!
Instead of becoming more educated, we're becoming dumber, and we're proud of it. We've developed a mob mentality and don't have the ability, or maybe worse, the desire, to do anything about changing it. Dumb is good, education is bad.
I'm through being part of it.
Anon
Anon, your negative description of many Americans is accurate, I'm sorry to say. Greed and avarice are the dominant drives of those who make and influence social policy. And they reflect, as they do with the war makers, interests rather than ideals. But to a large extent, interests are (despite their crassness) better than ideals as bases for war. We attack Iraq for matters of geopolitics (including geoeconomics: oil), but we "justify" it in terms of ideals (e.g., liberation of the Iraqui people and the promotion of Democracy). It would be wonderful if domestic policy reflected ideals, but we know that they mainly reflect class interests; Marx was not entirely wrong.
But consider the idealism of Islamists. They kill themselves in order to kill their enemies, not for money but for religious ideals. There is no way to stop them. The Bush administration will change its policies and actions (including withdrawing from war) if doing so promotes their control of power and resources, that is to say profits. As such, I'd prefer the lesser evil of societies going to war for the pursuit of material interests than for the realization of religious ideals.
This is the kind of ignorance prevalent in our congress today.
March 12, 2006
Feingold Calls for Censuring Bush Over Spy Program
C.I., I repeat what I stated yesterday:
"...It is so wrong when our government minimizes our rights to privacy and freedom of expression in order to keep us free from domination by OTHER governments."
Well, it's very discouraging when a member of congress talks about "support for our president," when he's done nothing right and everything wrong. They're all part of the problem for our country.
C.I., I should have said that it is EVIL when our government uses the threat from other societies as an excuse to minimize our rights and freedoms, and it is STUPID when it minimizes our rights and freedoms in order to keep us free from domination by other governments.
Dys, I'm a xenophile: I love people like you.
Lash, you're right: It's the anti-christ.
J:N,
I think "Organized Religion" is probably one of the worst things that happened to man. Don't confuse that with an attack on being religious, or spiritual, because I am. It's just that religion is used as one of the reasons for war, which again, I detest. It all gets back to power, domination, and in most cases ... greed! Anything that leads to war and killing disgusts me. The Islamists like Osama are in it for the very same thing people like Bush are ... and it isn't good for the rest of us!!
Anon
Quote:Anything that leads to war and killing disgusts me.
Does that include self defense,protecting your family,defending your home,and any of the other legitimate reasons to kill?
DAMN! mm has his head screwed in wrong again!
His use of "self defense" is so broad, the boogy man is a threat.
cicerone imposter wrote:DAMN! mm has his head screwed in wrong again!
His use of "self defense" is so broad, the boogy man is a threat.
This approach has worked well for Bush and his Administration on the mob mentality of the dumbed down American populace. As we get dumber, the easier it gets!!
Anon
