9
   

America... Spying on Americans

 
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Feb, 2006 10:36 am
Roxxxanne wrote:
Finn, you have revealed your true self, calling an American institution a hag. It says everything about you and nothing about her.


She belongs in an institution .....
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Feb, 2006 06:18 pm
Senior House Republican wants answers on wiretap program
John Byrne
Published: February 8, 2006

The Republican Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee F. James Sensenbrenner (R-WI) has issued 51 questions to Attorney General Alberto Gonzales on President Bush's warrantless wiretap program.

The letter, issued to Gonzales today and acquired by RAW STORY, demands answers to myriad legal questions on the program, which involved eavesdropping on Americans' calls overseas. Sensenbrenner has given Gonzales a Mar. 2 deadline to respond.

Combined with a move by the chairman of a House subcommittee on intelligence, and hearings in the Senate, the move is likely to signal that Republicans are not going to swallow the President's justification for the surveillance, and may be a precursor to hearings in the House. Still, Sensenbrenner seems to leave room for accepting the taps, at one point referring to them as "terrorist surveillance," the Administration phrase for the program.

Strikingly, the letter to Gonzales quotes Harvard University professor Lawrence Tribe, a constitutional scholar who testified at unofficial hearings held by ranking Judiciary Democrat John Conyers (D-MI). In a letter to Conyers, Tribe wrote that the taps "far from being authorized by Congress, [fly] in the face of an explicit congressional prohibition and [are] therefore unconstitutional."
http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Senior_House_Republican_wants_answers_on_0208.html
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Feb, 2006 11:33 pm
Before there is any testimony,lets eliminate the leaks in the house and senate.

Leahy sits on the Senate judiciary committee,so lets remove him before we begin any inquiry.


Remember,it was Pat Leahy that was forced off the senate intelligence committee for leaking classified info...

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/3/13/202146.shtml

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b03fbc31373.htm

http://psychcentral.com/psypsych/Pat_Leahy

So,remove Leahy and then hold the hearings,or it will most likely end up in the paper the next day.
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Feb, 2006 03:06 am
Cyclo, Have you heard of the new book 'Nowhere to hide; Behind the scenes of our emerging sueveillence society' By Robert O'Harrow?
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Feb, 2006 07:39 am
Quote:
Secret Court's Judges Were Warned About NSA Spy Data
Program May Have Led Improperly to Warrants

By Carol D. Leonnig
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, February 9, 2006; Page A01

Twice in the past four years, a top Justice Department lawyer warned the presiding judge of a secret surveillance court that information overheard in President Bush's eavesdropping program may have been improperly used to obtain wiretap warrants in the court, according to two sources with knowledge of those events.

The revelations infuriated U.S. District Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly -- who, like her predecessor, Royce C. Lamberth, had expressed serious doubts about whether the warrantless monitoring of phone calls and e-mails ordered by Bush was legal. Both judges had insisted that no information obtained this way be used to gain warrants from their court, according to government sources, and both had been assured by administration officials it would never happen.


source
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Feb, 2006 11:20 am
Republican Who Oversees N.S.A. Calls for Wiretap Inquiry
Heather Wilson is retired military. I think her libertarian beliefs cause he to be alarmed about Bush's attack on congressional power checks and balances. It will take republican libertarians with integrity to put a stop to Bush's power grab.---BBB
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Feb, 2006 11:31 am
Secret Court's Judges Were Warned about NSA Spy Data
Secret Court's Judges Were Warned about NSA Spy Data
By Carol D. Leonnig
The Washington Post
Thursday 09 February 2006

Program may have led improperly to warrants.

Twice in the past four years, a top Justice Department lawyer warned the presiding judge of a secret surveillance court that information overheard in President Bush's eavesdropping program may have been improperly used to obtain wiretap warrants in the court, according to two sources with knowledge of those events.

The revelations infuriated U.S. District Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly - who, like her predecessor, Royce C. Lamberth, had expressed serious doubts about whether the warrantless monitoring of phone calls and e-mails ordered by Bush was legal. Both judges had insisted that no information obtained this way be used to gain warrants from their court, according to government sources, and both had been assured by administration officials it would never happen.

The two heads of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court were the only judges in the country briefed by the administration on Bush's program. The president's secret order, issued sometime after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, allows the National Security Agency to monitor telephone calls and e-mails between people in the United States and contacts overseas.

James A. Baker, the counsel for intelligence policy in the Justice Department's Office of Intelligence Policy and Review, discovered in 2004 that the government's failure to share information about its spying program had rendered useless a federal screening system that the judges had insisted upon to shield the court from tainted information. He alerted Kollar-Kotelly, who complained to Justice, prompting a temporary suspension of the NSA spying program, the sources said.

Yet another problem in a 2005 warrant application prompted Kollar-Kotelly to issue a stern order to government lawyers to create a better firewall or face more difficulty obtaining warrants.

The two judges' discomfort with the NSA spying program was previously known. But this new account reveals the depth of their doubts about its legality and their behind-the-scenes efforts to protect the court from what they considered potentially tainted evidence. The new accounts also show the degree to which Baker, a top intelligence expert at Justice, shared their reservations and aided the judges.

Both judges expressed concern to senior officials that the president's program, if ever made public and challenged in court, ran a significant risk of being declared unconstitutional, according to sources familiar with their actions. Yet the judges believed they did not have the authority to rule on the president's power to order the eavesdropping, government sources said, and focused instead on protecting the integrity of the FISA process.

It was an odd position for the presiding judges of the FISA court, the secret panel created in 1978 in response to a public outcry over warrantless domestic spying by J. Edgar Hoover's FBI. The court's appointees, chosen by then-Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist, were generally veteran jurists with a pro-government bent, and their classified work is considered a powerful tool for catching spies and terrorists.

The FISA court secretly grants warrants for wiretaps, telephone record traces and physical searches to the Justice Department, whose lawyers must show they have probable cause to believe that a person in the United States is the agent of a foreign power or government. Between 1979 and 2004, it approved 18,748 warrants and rejected five.

Lamberth, the presiding judge at the time of the Sept. 11 attacks, and Kollar-Kotelly, who took over in May 2002, have repeatedly declined to comment on the program or their efforts to protect the FISA court. A Justice Department spokesman also declined to comment.

Both presiding judges agreed not to disclose the secret program to the 10 other FISA judges, who routinely handled some of the government's most highly classified secrets.

So early in 2002, the wary court and government lawyers developed a compromise. Any case in which the government listened to someone's calls without a warrant, and later developed information to seek a FISA warrant for that same suspect, was to be carefully "tagged" as having involved some NSA information. Generally, there were fewer than 10 cases each year, the sources said.

According to government officials familiar with the program, the presiding FISA judges insisted that information obtained through NSA surveillance not form the basis for obtaining a warrant and that, instead, independently gathered information provide the justification for FISA monitoring in such cases. They also insisted that these cases be presented only to the presiding judge.

Lamberth and Kollar-Kotelly derived significant comfort from the trust they had in Baker, the government's liaison to the FISA court. He was a stickler-for-rules career lawyer steeped in foreign intelligence law, and had served as deputy director of the office before becoming the chief in 2001.

Baker also had privately expressed hesitation to his bosses about whether the domestic spying program conflicted with the FISA law, a government official said. Justice higher-ups viewed him as suspect, but they also recognized that he had the judges' confidence and kept him in the pivotal position of obtaining warrants to spy on possible terrorists.

In 2004, Baker warned Kollar-Kotelly he had a problem with the tagging system. He had concluded that the NSA was not providing him with a complete and updated list of the people it had monitored, so Justice could not definitively know - and could not alert the court - if it was seeking FISA warrants for people already spied on, government officials said.

Kollar-Kotelly complained to then-Attorney General John D. Ashcroft, and her concerns led to a temporary suspension of the program. The judge required that high-level Justice officials certify the information was complete - or face possible perjury charges.

In 2005, Baker learned that at least one government application for a FISA warrant probably contained NSA information that was not made clear to the judges, the government officials said. Some administration officials explained to Kollar-Kotelly that a low-level Defense Department employee unfamiliar with court disclosure procedures had made a mistake.

Kollar-Kotelly asked Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld to ensure that wouldn't happen again, government officials said.

Baker declined to comment through an office assistant, who referred questions about his FISA work to a Justice Department spokesman. Pentagon spokeswoman Cynthia Smith also declined to comment and referred questions to Justice officials. Justice spokesman Brian Roehrkasse said the department could not discuss its work with the FISA court.

"The department always strives to meet the highest ethical and professional standards in its appearances before any court, including the FISA court," Roehrkasse said. "This is especially true when department attorneys appear before a court on an ex parte basis, as is the case in the FISA court."

Shortly after the warrantless eavesdropping program began, then-NSA Director Michael V. Hayden and Ashcroft made clear in private meetings that the president wanted to detect possible terrorist activity before another attack. They also made clear that, in such a broad hunt for suspicious patterns and activities, the government could never meet the FISA court's probable-cause requirement, government officials said.

So it confused the FISA court judges when, in their recent public defense of the program, Hayden and Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales insisted that NSA analysts do not listen to calls unless they have a reasonable belief that someone with a known link to terrorism is on one end of the call. At a hearing Monday, Gonzales told the Senate Judiciary Committee that the "reasonable belief" standard is merely the "probable cause" standard by another name.

Several FISA judges said they also remain puzzled by Bush's assertion that the court was not "agile" or "nimble" enough to help catch terrorists. The court had routinely approved emergency wiretaps 72 hours after they had begun, as FISA allows, and the court's actions in the days after the Sept. 11 attacks suggested that its judges were hardly unsympathetic to the needs of their nation at war.

On Sept. 12, Bush asked new FBI Director Robert S. Mueller III in a Cabinet meeting whether it was safe for commercial air traffic to resume, according to senior government officials. Mueller had to acknowledge he could not give a reliable assessment.

Mueller and Justice officials went to Lamberth, who agreed that day to expedited procedures to issue FISA warrants for eavesdropping, a government official said.

The requirement for detailed paperwork was greatly eased, allowing the NSA to begin eavesdropping the next day on anyone suspected of a link to al Qaeda, every person who had ever been a member or supporter of militant Islamic groups, and everyone ever linked to a terrorist watch list in the United States or abroad, the official said.

In March 2002, the FBI and Pakistani police arrested Abu Zubaida, then the third-ranking al Qaeda operative, in Pakistan. When agents found Zubaida's laptop computer, a senior law enforcement source said, they discovered that the vast majority of people he had been communicating with were being monitored under FISA warrants or international spying efforts.

"Finally, we got some comfort" that surveillance efforts were working, said a government official familiar with Zubaida's arrest.
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Feb, 2006 11:33 am
US Plans Massive Data Sweep
US Plans Massive Data Sweep
By Mark Clayton
The Christian Science Monitor
Thursday 09 February 2006

Little-known data-collection system could troll news, blogs, even e-mails. Will it go too far?

The US government is developing a massive computer system that can collect huge amounts of data and, by linking far-flung information from blogs and e-mail to government records and intelligence reports, search for patterns of terrorist activity.

The system - parts of which are operational, parts of which are still under development - is already credited with helping to foil some plots. It is the federal government's latest attempt to use broad data-collection and powerful analysis in the fight against terrorism. But by delving deeply into the digital minutiae of American life, the program is also raising concerns that the government is intruding too deeply into citizens' privacy.

"We don't realize that, as we live our lives and make little choices, like buying groceries, buying on Amazon, Googling, we're leaving traces everywhere," says Lee Tien, a staff attorney with the Electronic Frontier Foundation. "We have an attitude that no one will connect all those dots. But these programs are about connecting those dots - analyzing and aggregating them - in a way that we haven't thought about. It's one of the underlying fundamental issues we have yet to come to grips with."

The core of this effort is a little-known system called Analysis, Dissemination, Visualization, Insight, and Semantic Enhancement (ADVISE). Only a few public documents mention it. ADVISE is a research and development program within the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), part of its three-year-old "Threat and Vulnerability, Testing and Assessment" portfolio. The TVTA received nearly $50 million in federal funding this year.

DHS officials are circumspect when talking about ADVISE. "I've heard of it," says Peter Sand, director of privacy technology. "I don't know the actual status right now. But if it's a system that's been discussed, then it's something we're involved in at some level."

Data-Mining Is a Key Technology

A major part of ADVISE involves data-mining - or "dataveillance," as some call it. It means sifting through data to look for patterns. If a supermarket finds that customers who buy cider also tend to buy fresh-baked bread, it might group the two together. To prevent fraud, credit-card issuers use data-mining to look for patterns of suspicious activity.

What sets ADVISE apart is its scope. It would collect a vast array of corporate and public online information - from financial records to CNN news stories - and cross-reference it against US intelligence and law-enforcement records. The system would then store it as "entities" - linked data about people, places, things, organizations, and events, according to a report summarizing a 2004 DHS conference in Alexandria, Va. The storage requirements alone are huge - enough to retain information about 1 quadrillion entities, the report estimated. If each entity were a penny, they would collectively form a cube a half-mile high - roughly double the height of the Empire State Building.

But ADVISE and related DHS technologies aim to do much more, according to Joseph Kielman, manager of the TVTA portfolio. The key is not merely to identify terrorists, or sift for key words, but to identify critical patterns in data that illumine their motives and intentions, he wrote in a presentation at a November conference in Richland, Wash.

For example: Is a burst of Internet traffic between a few people the plotting of terrorists, or just bloggers arguing? ADVISE algorithms would try to determine that before flagging the data pattern for a human analyst's review.

At least a few pieces of ADVISE are already operational. Consider Starlight, which along with other "visualization" software tools can give human analysts a graphical view of data. Viewing data in this way could reveal patterns not obvious in text or number form. Understanding the relationships among people, organizations, places, and things - using social-behavior analysis and other techniques - is essential to going beyond mere data-mining to comprehensive "knowledge discovery in databases," Dr. Kielman wrote in his November report. He declined to be interviewed for this article.

One Data Program Has Foiled Terrorists

Starlight has already helped foil some terror plots, says Jim Thomas, one of its developers and director of the government's new National Visualization Analytics Center in Richland, Wash. He can't elaborate because the cases are classified, he adds. But "there's no question that the technology we've invented here at the lab has been used to protect our freedoms - and that's pretty cool."

As envisioned, ADVISE and its analytical tools would be used by other agencies to look for terrorists. "All federal, state, local and private-sector security entities will be able to share and collaborate in real time with distributed data warehouses that will provide full support for analysis and action" for the ADVISE system, says the 2004 workshop report.

A Program in the Shadows

Yet the scope of ADVISE - its stage of development, cost, and most other details - is so obscure that critics say it poses a major privacy challenge.

"We just don't know enough about this technology, how it works, or what it is used for," says Marcia Hofmann of the Electronic Privacy Information Center in Washington. "It matters to a lot of people that these programs and software exist. We don't really know to what extent the government is mining personal data."

Even congressmen with direct oversight of DHS, who favor data mining, say they don't know enough about the program.

"I am not fully briefed on ADVISE," wrote Rep. Curt Weldon (R) of Pennsylvania, vice chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee, in an e-mail. "I'll get briefed this week."

Privacy concerns have torpedoed federal data-mining efforts in the past. In 2002, news reports revealed that the Defense Department was working on Total Information Awareness, a project aimed at collecting and sifting vast amounts of personal and government data for clues to terrorism. An uproar caused Congress to cancel the TIA program a year later.

Echoes of a Past Controversial Plan

ADVISE "looks very much like TIA," Mr. Tien of the Electronic Frontier Foundation writes in an e-mail. "There's the same emphasis on broad collection and pattern analysis."

But Mr. Sand, the DHS official, emphasizes that privacy protection would be built-in. "Before a system leaves the department there's been a privacy review.... That's our focus."

Some computer scientists support the concepts behind ADVISE.

"This sort of technology does protect against a real threat," says Jeffrey Ullman, professor emeritus of computer science at Stanford University. "If a computer suspects me of being a terrorist, but just says maybe an analyst should look at it ... well, that's no big deal. This is the type of thing we need to be willing to do, to give up a certain amount of privacy."

Others are less sure.

"It isn't a bad idea, but you have to do it in a way that demonstrates its utility - and with provable privacy protection," says Latanya Sweeney, founder of the Data Privacy Laboratory at Carnegie Mellon University. But since speaking on privacy at the 2004 DHS workshop, she now doubts the department is building privacy into ADVISE. "At this point, ADVISE has no funding for privacy technology."

She cites a recent request for proposal by the Office of Naval Research on behalf of DHS. Although it doesn't mention ADVISE by name, the proposal outlines data-technology research that meshes closely with technology cited in ADVISE documents.

Neither the proposal - nor any other she has seen - provides any funding for provable privacy technology, she adds.

Some in Congress Push for More Oversight of Federal Data-Mining

Amid the furor over electronic eavesdropping by the National Security Agency, Congress may be poised to expand its scrutiny of government efforts to "mine" public data for hints of terrorist activity.

"One element of the NSA's domestic spying program that has gotten too little attention is the government's reportedly widespread use of data-mining technology to analyze the communications of ordinary Americans," said Sen. Russell Feingold (D) of Wisconsin in a Jan. 23 statement.

Senator Feingold is among a handful of congressmen who have in the past sponsored legislation - unsuccessfully - to require federal agencies to report on data-mining programs and how they maintain privacy.

Without oversight and accountability, critics say, even well-intentioned counterterrorism programs could experience mission creep, having their purview expanded to include non- terrorists - or even political opponents or groups. "The development of this type of data-mining technology has serious implications for the future of personal privacy," says Steven Aftergood of the Federation of American Scientists.

Even congressional supporters of the effort want more information about data-mining efforts.

"There has to be more and better congressional oversight," says Rep. Curt Weldon (R) of Pennsylvania and vice chairman of the House committee overseeing the Department of Homeland Security. "But there can't be oversight till Congress understands what data-mining is. There needs to be a broad look at this because they [intelligence agencies] are obviously seeing the value of this."

Data-mining - the systematic, often automated gleaning of insights from databases - is seen "increasingly as a useful tool" to help detect terrorist threats, the General Accountability Office reported in 2004. Of the nearly 200 federal data-mining efforts the GAO counted, at least 14 were acknowledged to focus on counterterrorism.

While privacy laws do place some restriction on government use of private data - such as medical records - they don't prevent intelligence agencies from buying information from commercial data collectors. Congress has done little so far to regulate the practice or even require basic notification from agencies, privacy experts say.

Indeed, even data that look anonymous aren't necessarily so. For example: With name and Social Security number stripped from their files, 87 percent of Americans can be identified simply by knowing their date of birth, gender, and five-digit Zip code, according to research by Latanya Sweeney, a data-privacy researcher at Carnegie Mellon University.

In a separate 2004 report to Congress, the GAO cited eight issues that need to be addressed to provide adequate privacy barriers amid federal data-mining. Top among them was establishing oversight boards for such programs.

Some Antiterror Efforts Die - Others Just Change Names

Defense Department

November 2002 - The New York Times identifies a counterterrorism program called Total Information Awareness.

September 2003 - After terminating TIA on privacy grounds, Congress shuts down its successor, Terrorism Information Awareness, for the same reasons.

Department of Homeland Security

February 2003 - The department's Transportation Security Administration (TSA) announces it's replacing its 1990s-era Computer-Assisted Passenger Prescreening System (CAPPS I).

July 2004 - TSA cancels CAPPS II because of privacy concerns.

August 2004 - TSA says it will begin testing a similar system - Secure Flight - with built-in privacy features.

July 2005 - Government auditors charge that Secure Flight is violating privacy laws by holding information on 43,000 people not suspected of terrorism.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Feb, 2006 11:36 am
thought this was a good article

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1705412,00.html
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Feb, 2006 11:40 am
Revel, great article! Important lines:

Quote:
Twice in the past four years, a top Justice Department lawyer warned the presiding judge of a secret surveillance court that information overheard in President Bush's eavesdropping program may have been improperly used to obtain wiretap warrants in the court, according to two sources with knowledge of those events.


There's your 'improper use' of the program, Bushbots. Illegal. Not Allowed.

And later:

Quote:
Shortly after the warrantless eavesdropping program began, then-NSA Director Michael V. Hayden and Ashcroft made clear in private meetings that the president wanted to detect possible terrorist activity before another attack. They also made clear that, in such a broad hunt for suspicious patterns and activities, the government could never meet the FISA court's probable-cause requirement, government officials said.

So it confused the FISA court judges when, in their recent public defense of the program, Hayden and Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales insisted that NSA analysts do not listen to calls unless they have a reasonable belief that someone with a known link to terrorism is on one end of the call. At a hearing Monday, Gonzales told the Senate Judiciary Committee that the "reasonable belief" standard is merely the "probable cause" standard by another name.


It looks like the AG lied in front of Congress.

This isn't going to get any better for the admin anytime soon, methinks.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Feb, 2006 11:48 am
You have bolded the wrong words. Let me help you out.

Quote:
Twice in the past four years, a top Justice Department lawyer warned the presiding judge of a secret surveillance court that information overheard in President Bush's eavesdropping program may have been improperly used to obtain wiretap warrants in the court, according to two sources with knowledge of those events.


According to unknown sources... So, let me get this straight, you are willing to take the word of 2 unkwnown, therefore unreliable, sources who say something MAY HAVE happened over the word of the Attorney General who says it has not. Your hatred of the Bush administration is that strong? No need to answer, I already know.

Quote:
And later:

Quote:
Shortly after the warrantless eavesdropping program began, then-NSA Director Michael V. Hayden and Ashcroft made clear in private meetings that the president wanted to detect possible terrorist activity before another attack. They also made clear that, in such a broad hunt for suspicious patterns and activities, the government could never meet the FISA court's probable-cause requirement, government officials said.

So it confused the FISA court judges when, in their recent public defense of the program, Hayden and Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales insisted that NSA analysts do not listen to calls unless they have a reasonable belief that someone with a known link to terrorism is on one end of the call. At a hearing Monday, Gonzales told the Senate Judiciary Committee that the "reasonable belief" standard is merely the "probable cause" standard by another name.


It looks like the AG lied in front of Congress.

This isn't going to get any better for the admin anytime soon, methinks.


Lied? Based on two unknown, unreliable sources talking out their arse, perhaps.

I ask again, does it surprise you that EVERY single congressperson that has been briefed about what the program ACTUALLY does has not called for the immediate cessation of the program?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Feb, 2006 11:56 am
Quote:
According to unknown sources... So, let me get this straight, you are willing to take the word of 2 unkwnown, therefore unreliable, sources who say something MAY HAVE happened over the word of the Attorney General who says it has not. Your hatred of the Bush administration is that strong? No need to answer, I already know.


The AG is worse than an unknown, unreliable source; he's a known unreliable source.

I don't trust those who forward theories that give great power to the Executive branch, or any branch, of gov't! You are asking me to trust the same guy who thinks that Torture is OK and legal? No thanks.

Not to mention that he directly lied about these programs during his confirmation hearings; so why should I trust someone who has already lied in the past? You shouldn't, is the answer.

It doesn't have anything to do with hate, just common sense. That's the part that you don't get.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Feb, 2006 12:00 pm
Can you please show me where he said "that Torture is OK and legal". I'd really like to see that.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Feb, 2006 12:02 pm
McGentrix wrote:

I ask again, does it surprise you that EVERY single congressperson that has been briefed about what the program ACTUALLY does has not called for the immediate cessation of the program?


That is quite different from they all supported it. At least 2 of them wrote the administration stating grave concerns as to the legality of it and the fact that they couldn't discuss it with anyone to find out if it was legal.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Feb, 2006 12:02 pm
Why don't you address the lies the AG told, instead of trying to change the nature of the debate? This is a common tactic you pull when faced with defeat on a point.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Feb, 2006 12:04 pm
Which lies would those be Cyc? You bring up "facts" from unknown sources and expect a discussion about them? Laughing

Still waiting for you to show where Gonzalez said "that Torture is OK and legal". More unknown sources?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Feb, 2006 12:08 pm
Quote:
Which lies would those be Cyc? You bring up "facts" from unknown sources and expect a discussion about them?


Specifically, he lied about the existence of the secret program to spy on Americans. He lied about his intention to fully inform congress about said program and he lied about TELLING that lie in the hearing earlier this week.

Quote:
Still waiting for you to show where Gonzalez said "that Torture is OK and legal". More unknown sources?


http://kbonline.typepad.com/random/2004/11/gonzales_tortur.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3187-2004Nov21.html

Why don't you start there? The first is a detailed timeline of various memos either authored or approved by Gonzales which state that the Geneva conventions don't apply.

The second details exactly how his memos lead to the abuse of Detainees in Gitmo.

Your pathetic attempt to reframe the discussion has officially failed; I'd like to return to the main topic now, whether or not Bush broke the law when he decided to covertly stop following the Legal FISA courts and start going all maverick on data collection.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Feb, 2006 12:18 pm
McGentrix wrote:

Still waiting for you to show where Gonzalez said "that Torture is OK and legal". More unknown sources?


The 2002 memo that justified the use of torture in the "war on terror":

"I accept the legal conclusion of the attorney general and the Department of Justice that I have the authority under the Constitution to suspend Geneva as between the United States and Afghanistan, but I decline to exercise that authority at this time," the president said in the memo, entitled "Humane Treatment of al Qaeda and Taliban Detainees."
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Feb, 2006 12:19 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
Still waiting for you to show where Gonzalez said "that Torture is OK and legal". More unknown sources?


http://kbonline.typepad.com/random/2004/11/gonzales_tortur.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3187-2004Nov21.html

Why don't you start there? The first is a detailed timeline of various memos either authored or approved by Gonzales which state that the Geneva conventions don't apply.

The second details exactly how his memos lead to the abuse of Detainees in Gitmo.


"Geneva conventions don't apply" does not equate to "Torture is OK". (Walter .... pay attention.)

"Abuse" (depending on how you try and define the word) does not equate ot "torture." However, I'm fully convinced you would include deprivation of a copy of the Koran in the category of "torture."

Quote:
Your pathetic attempt to reframe the discussion has officially failed; I'd like to return to the main topic now, whether or not Bush broke the law when he decided to covertly stop following the Legal FISA courts and start going all maverick on data collection.

Cycloptichorn


His attempt to get you to substantiate your comments is well-within the boundaries of this discussion.

Your tactic is to proclaim, "The AG lied," and when called on it, complain that the discussion is outside the topic of discussion.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Feb, 2006 12:20 pm
So, stating the opinion that the Geneva conventions may not apply to terrorists (an opinion I wholeheartedly agree with) is the same as deciding that "torture is ok and legal"? (which it is not)

It's amazing how you spin things.

This all leads to the credibility of those you believe or do not believe. You have stated that you would rather believe 2 unknown sources than the AG who believes "that Torture is OK and legal" and lies about SECRET programs to the world audience.

You have no idea how foolish that makes you appear.

A. Gonzalez has NEVER stated "that Torture is OK and legal" nor has even suggested that anyone SHOULD be tortured. That is merely what you wish to believe he said from listening to leftish gibberish coming from so many.

B. He should have instead said that he could not comment on any known or unknown secret programs.

Imagine the response he would have got from that answer... Maybe another joke from some senate Democrat about not answering questions.
0 Replies
 
 

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