9
   

America... Spying on Americans

 
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 12:17 pm
Whichever Helen it was, I fail to see what makes her questions rabid or fanatical. With the way the whole administration tap dances with questions, a reporter or congressmen or senator... has to tie them down the specifics no matter how they try to spin the questions with their answers.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 12:24 pm
They lie, lie, lie. It's amazing that people have put up with it for this long.

Some of the Senior Democrats are starting to wake up to the fact that this is a winning wedge issue for '06. There will be no backing down or retreat on illegal spying.

Watch for the Administration attempt to make two issues the election issues: national defense, and gay marriage. They'll pull that 'ol skeleton so bigots (like a few A2K'ers in particular, you know who I'm talking about) will GOTV rather than see those fags take over a little more of America.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 02:56 pm
Debra_Law wrote:
I was pissed too. I'll have more comments after a transcript is available.





Thanks for the link, Thomas. The link concerns Gonzales' confirmation hearing as Attorney General that took place over a year ago. I will definitely read through the transcript and compare what he said on January 6, 2005 to what he said yesterday. I am still looking for a transcript of the hearing that took place yesterday. I have comments on some of the things he said, but want to quote him word for word.

I've just started reviewing the link you provided, and here's an interesting tidbit that jumped out right away:

Quote:
SPECTER: . . . Judge Gonzales will take over, if confirmed, the direction of the Department of Justice, which is a department of enormous importance in the United States. The fourth department created in 1789; has the responsibility for representing the United States in court, civil cases and criminal cases; has oversight responsibility for the Federal Bureau of Investigation and its enormous responsibilities on the fight against terrorism, and law enforcement.

And while Judge Gonzales is the appointee of the president, he has brought a responsibility, he's representing the people of the United States; a key distinction which I'm pleased to say in advance that Judge Gonzales has noted in the statement which he has submitted. . . .



Over a year ago, Gonzales noted the KEY DISTINCTION--that if he moved from the position of White House Counsel to Attorney General, he would no longer be representing the president, but rather, he would be representing the PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES.

But, didn't he say during his hearing yesterday that his client was the president?
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 03:05 pm
Thomas wrote:
Embarrassed Sorry, wrong transcript. I hope you like this one better.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/06/AR2006020600931.html



Thanks for the link!
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 03:06 pm
DL, I may be misunderstanding the senate hearings but it's my understanding that Gonzoles is there representing the events of when he was counsel to the president rather than his current position as AG. I'm probably wrong.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 03:28 pm
Raising one's hand and taking an oath to tell the truth is an INSULT to one's integrity and makes a government official SAD?

Quote:
SESSIONS: Mr. Chairman (OFF-MIKE) very disappointed that we went through this process.

This attorney general, in my view, is a man of integrity. And having read the questions, as you have, that Senator Feingold put forward, and his answers, I believe he'll have a perfect answer to those questions when they come up at this hearing.

And I do not believe they're going to show he perjured himself in any way or was inaccurate in what he said.

And I remember having a conversation with General Myers and Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld, and one of the saddest days in their career was having to come in here and stand before a Senate committee and raise their hand as if they are not trustworthy in matters relating to the defense of this country.

And I think it's not necessary that a duly confirmed Cabinet member have to routinely stand up and just give an oath when they are, in effect, under oath and subject to prosecution if they don't tell the truth.

I think it's just a question of propriety and good taste and due respect from one branch to the other.

And that's why I would support the chair.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 03:32 pm
Quote:
Raising one's hand and taking an oath to tell the truth is an INSULT to one's integrity and makes a government official SAD?


No,I think its a problem lawyers have.
It seems most of the people in govt that get into trouble are lawyers.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 03:52 pm
mysteryman wrote:
Quote:
Raising one's hand and taking an oath to tell the truth is an INSULT to one's integrity and makes a government official SAD?


No,I think its a problem lawyers have.
It seems most of the people in govt that get into trouble are lawyers.

What's Bush's excuse? Laughing
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 05:00 pm
In his opening statement, Senator Leahy said:

Quote:

LEAHY: . . . The domestic spying program into e-mails and telephone calls apparently conducted by the National Security Agency was first reported by the New York Times on December 16, 2005.

The next day, President Bush publicly admitted that secret domestic wiretapping has been conducted without warrants since late 2001, and he's issued secret orders to do this more than 30 times.

LEAHY: We've asked for those presidential orders allowing secret eavesdropping on Americans. They have not been provided.

We've asked for official legal opinions of the government that the administration says justify this program. They too have been withheld from us. . . .

* * *

LEAHY: . . . In fact, in 2004, two years after you authorized the secret warrantless wiretapping program -- and this is a tape we're told we can't show -- the president said, quote, "Any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, a wiretap requires a court order. Nothing has changed. When we're talking about chasing down terrorists, we're talking about getting a court order before we do so."

LEAHY: That was when he was running for re-election. Today we know, at the very least, that statement was misleading.




In his opening statement, Gonzales states the following:


Quote:
GONZALES: The president has described the terrorist surveillance program in response to certain leaks, and my discussion in this open forum must be limited to those facts the president has publicly confirmed: nothing more.




When I was watching the hearing on C-Span yesterday, this was a common theme. Gonzales limited his testimony to the NARROWLY described program that the president has confirmed--that the "terrorist surveillance program" is limited to targets whom the intelligence officers reasonably believe have ties to al Qaida.

BUT, as some senators pointed out, if the program was as narrowly tailored as the president and Gonzales claim the program to be, then FISA is more than adequate for the government's needs. It was pointed out that there would be no need to bypass FISA unless the president's secret program was much broader than what the president has been willing to disclose, admit, or confirm.

And, throughout the day as the senators continued to question and as Gonzales continued to answer--it became extremely apparent to me that the program is INDEED MUCH BROADER than what our lying president has admitted.

When Gonzales was questioned about the criticism of the program from former goverment employees/officers----Gonzales was quick to minimize the criticism. He pointed out that their criticism was not directed at the part of the program that the president has confirmed--but directed at OTHER PORTIONS of the program (that he wasn't at liberty to discuss). This demonstrates that the program is much broader in scope than what the president has said.

When Gonzales was questioned whether the government had wiretapped purely domestic communications or searched or bugged American citizens in their homes or offices, Gonzales refused to answer claiming he could not disclose the operational details of classified programs. He continued to stress that his testimony was LIMITED to what the president had "confirmed" due to leaks and nothing else.

Gonzales has justified the president's secret program by claiming it has helped the government IDENTIFY terrorists. It was pointed out, however, that no one has heard any reports about these allegedly identified terrorists being arrested. When asked if these identified terrorists were arrested, Gonzales refused to answer claiming that he could not disclose the operational details of the program. But, identifying potential threats through fishing expeditions is far different from a program that monitors people based on probable cause or a lesser standard known as reasonable suspicion.

When Gonzales was questioned about the alleged GAPS in FISA that made the president believe that the secret executive program was necessary, it was stressed that FISA only allowed electronic surveillance of targets upon a showing of probable cause that the target is a terrorist or affiliated with a terrorist organization. Gonzales agreed that the PROBLEM with FISA is that it is UNUSABLE to discover who is a terrorist. FISA works fine when we want to conduct electronic surveillance of targets with KNOWN ties to terrorism, but it doesn't help the government to discover who those people are in the first instance. Accordingly, the government wants to conduct electronic surveillance (fishing expeditions) of communications WITHOUT any individualized suspicion in order to discover / identify who may be a threat.

Gonzales noted that the intelligence surveillance officer based on his training and experience generally knows what to look for--but under the Fourth Amendment "reasonableness" prong, reasonable officers make mistakes--and he compares the intelligence surveillance officer to the law enforcement officer "on the beat." For the significance of this statement, one need only review Terry v. Ohio.

Certainly, an officer on the beat can observe (with his eyes) the movements/actions of individuals and, based on training and experience, articulate facts that constitute a reasonable suspicion (watered down standard) that criminal activity might be afoot. Based on that reasonable suspicion, the officer might conduct an investigative stop of the person and might conduct a pat-down of the person's outer clothing to determine whether that person is carrying a weapon. The pat-down search, based on less than probable cause, is allowed for the officer's safety.

But, one needs to compare the Terry decision to the Katz decision. There is a world of difference between suspicious conduct that a person might display in plain view for anyone to see versus private conversations that a person might have that are protected from prying ears.

Gonzales' testimony indicates that the president's secret program is NOT narrowly limited to targeting persons with KNOWN ties to terrorism as the president has claimed. NSA intelligence officers, like officers on the beat (who would, for example, observe and monitor all persons walking past a jewelry store that is vulnerable to an armed robbery), are listening in on and monitoring all electronic communications regardless of any individualized suspicion in hopes of finding something (an articulable suspicion) that would help them to IDENTIFY a potential threat. The president's secret executive branch program is not narrowly limited as he claims nor does it respect the civil liberties of the American people. It is broad-scale spying on American citizens in hopes of identifying members of a "fifth column movement."
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 06:03 pm
Quote:
GONZALES: To be sure, FISA allows the government to begin electronic surveillance without a court order for up to 72 hours in emergency situations or circumstances.

But before that emergency provision can be used, the attorney general must make a determination that all of the requirements of the FISA statute are met in advance.

This requirement can be cumbersome and burdensome.

Intelligence officials at NSA first have to assess that they have identified a legitimate target. After that, lawyers at NSA have to review the request to make sure it meets all the requirements of the statute. And then lawyers at the Justice Department must also review the request and reach the same judgment or insist on additional information before processing the emergency application.

Finally I, as attorney general, must review the request and make the determination that all of the requirements of FISA are met.


But even this is not the end of the story.

Each emergency authorization must be followed by a detailed formal application to the FISA courts within three days. The government must prepare legal documents laying out all of the relevant facts and law and obtain the approval of a Cabinet-level officer as well as a certification from a senior official with mass security responsibility, such as the director of the FBI.

Finally, a judge must review, consider and approve the application.

All of these steps take time. Al Qaida, however, does not wait.

While FISA is appropriate for general foreign intelligence collection, the president made the determination that FISA is not always sufficient for providing the sort of nimble early-warning system we need against Al Qaida.

Just as we can't demand that our soldiers bring lawyers onto the battlefield, let alone get the permission of the attorney general or a court before taking action, we can't afford to impose layers of lawyers on top of career intelligence officers who are striving valiantly to provide a first line of defense by tracking secretive Al Qaida operatives in real time.




CUMBERSOME? In comparison to what? in comparison to the government's alleged "safeguards" that they voluntarily subscribe to?


Quote:
GONZALES: To succeed, we must deploy not just soldiers and sailors and airmen and Marines, we must also depend on intelligence analysts, surveillance experts and the nimble use of our technological strength. . . .

GONZALES: It's an early warning system designed for the 21st century. It is the modern equivalent to a scout team, sent ahead to do reconnaissance, or a series of radar outposts designed to detect enemy movements. And as with all wartime operations, speed, agility and secrecy are essential to its success.

While the president approved this program to respond to the new threats against us, he also imposed several important safeguards to protect the privacy and the civil liberties of all Americans.

First, only international communications are authorized for interception under this program. That is communications between a foreign country and this country.

Second, the program is triggered only when a career professional at the NSA has reasonable grounds to believe that one of the parties to a communication is a member or agent of Al Qaida or an affiliated terrorist organization. As the president has said, if you're talking with Al Qaida, we want to know what you're saying.

Third, to protect the privacy of Americans still further, the NSA employs safeguards to minimize the unnecessary collection and dissemination of information about U.S. persons.

Fourth, this program is administered by career professionals at NSA, expert intelligence analysts and their senior supervisors with access to the best available information. They make the decisions to initiate surveillance. The operation of the program is reviewed by NSA lawyers, and rigorous oversight is provided by the NSA inspector general.

I have been personally assured that no other foreign intelligence program in the history of NSA has received a more thorough review.




If we believe what Gonzales and the president have claimed, the ONLY difference between the program established by Congress (FISA) and the program established the president is that Congress's program requires an independent check on the government's determination that "reasonable grounds [exist] to believe that one of the parties to a communication is a member or agent of Al Qaida or an affiliated terrorist organization" to protect us against government abuses whereas the president's program does not require an independent check.

Again, I point you to the Supreme Court decision (excerpt posted earlier) that states the inconvenience of preparing the paperwork to obtain that independent check by a neutral magistrate is NEVER a legitimate excuse for failing to do so.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 06:06 pm
Time to start coallating information from the first 200 pages of the thread. See if we can't fill in some of the gaps.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 09:21 pm
Cy,

You can tell when a rightwinger is lying ... their mouth is moving!

Anon
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 11:18 pm
http://www.nytimes.com/glogin?URI=http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/08/politics/08nsa.html&OQ=_rQ3D1&OP=23bf56fdQ2F(,VQ3B(Q5BL!ihLLxQ24(Q24ccQ27(cQ24(c.(zLUmxm!i(c.GiAfZxdU

Quote:
Representative Heather A. Wilson of New Mexico, chairwoman of the House Intelligence Subcommittee on Technical and Tactical Intelligence, said in an interview that she had "serious concerns" about the surveillance program. By withholding information about its operations from many lawmakers, she said, the administration has deepened her apprehension about whom the agency is monitoring and why.

Ms. Wilson, who was a National Security Council aide in the administration of President Bush's father, is the first Republican on either the House's Intelligence Committee or the Senate's to call for a full Congressional investigation into the program, in which the N.S.A. has been eavesdropping without warrants on the international communications of people inside the United States believed to have links with terrorists.


Behind subscription wall, that's all I could find.

But where one will go, so will others, in time.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 11:54 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
It was indeed the rabid Helen Thomas.

http://newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/news/rnc/intel_thomas_175.jpg


DEMON MONSTER!!!!!
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Feb, 2006 12:06 am
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
It was indeed the rabid Helen Thomas.

DEMON MONSTER!!!!!


Rabid Helen Thomas?
What kind of rabid-dog insecure, inadequate totally irrelevant white man would find the need to demonize a harmless old woman?
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Feb, 2006 12:16 am
When I was a young, innocent, and essentially unwise youth I believed that fighting the Power was a noble cause.

Thank God such untainted novices exist for we need them to tell us when we are strutting naked in our official processions. Innocence versus wisdom is a tension that define societies.

Having said this, let's not assume that the young have anything more than a challenging perspective. Youth has unadulterated passion, but it does not have wisdom.

Now comes Helen Thomas....

Obviously this hag is not representative of America's youth. She is, however, representative of an old fartdom in America who couldn't care less if what they say is in accordance with social norms. To this extent, the old farts are as valuable as the young shysters. The problem is that hags like Thomas would argue that they enjoy the credibility of the aged and the Innocence of the young. To the extent this is a possible equation, Helen Thomas is a far far way from grasping it.

Thomas is incapable of influencing ideas. That there are partisan zealots who enjoy her confirmation of their thoughts is immaterial, but they are basing their opinions on a rotting mansion.
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Feb, 2006 12:23 am
Finn, you have revealed your true self, calling an American institution a hag. It says everything about you and nothing about her.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Feb, 2006 12:35 am
Roxxxanne wrote:
Finn, you have revealed your true self, calling an American institution a hag. It says everything about you and nothing about her.


Yeah right.

Helen Thomas is not an American institution. To argue so is evidence of idiocy.

If, I am wrong, and she is, then so is Rush Limbaugh. Are you prepared to honor Rush for his position in American society, regardless of whether or not you agree with his consistent screeds?
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Feb, 2006 12:44 am
Being called an idiot or a hag by the likes of you is a compliment. Take a good look at yourself, my pathetic little man.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Feb, 2006 05:48 am
Two highly relevant commentaries to this topic...

Quote:

full Powers article


Quote:
full Dworkin article here
0 Replies
 
 

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