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I Say We Duke It Out!

 
 
Questioner
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 01:59 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
Let me ask you this. Suppose you had that undisputable scienfic proof that God exists. Where does that leave faith?[/b][/color]


Quite honestly, it leaves faith in the crapper, along with all of the other things that we 'just do' because we 'believe'.
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Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 02:00 pm
Why is it so important for non-believers to have proof of a believers faith? Are they asked for proof of their non-belief? How do we know that they are not lying or deceiving themselves and are really closet believers. Where is the proof? Can you provide scientific proof that you do not believe in God? Question
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 02:06 pm
They could say that they believe that they believe that they do not believe in God.I suppose.

Then you could say but how--never mind.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 02:13 pm
Intrepid wrote:
Why is it so important for non-believers to have proof of a believers faith? Are they asked for proof of their non-belief? How do we know that they are not lying or deceiving themselves and are really closet believers. Where is the proof? Can you provide scientific proof that you do not believe in God? Question

Straw man. The fact is that "non-believers" (in the religionist sense) are not the ones burdened with the responsibility of providing proof or validation; it is the "believer" which makes, without proving or validating, the affirmative statement. I submit once more the challenge you have failed to meet:

Demonstrate that "Faith" and "Superstition" be functionally differentiable - note the "Functionally" requirement; neither personal preference nor social convention makes the cut.

I submit further that absent substantive, credible, proper-to-form rebuttal of the as-issued challenge, "Faith", central to the core proposition of Christianity, stands refuted, and thus perforce also does the proposition itself.
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Questioner
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 02:15 pm
Intrepid wrote:
Why is it so important for non-believers to have proof of a believers faith? Are they asked for proof of their non-belief? How do we know that they are not lying or deceiving themselves and are really closet believers. Where is the proof? Can you provide scientific proof that you do not believe in God? Question


I hear this question over and over and over again. Let me try to answer it.

"Why is it so important for non-believers to have proof of a believer's faith?"

The reason falls to what I perceive to be basic human nature. Curiosity. If I were to approach you and say that there is a UFO flying directly above our heads even now, you would look up and see nothing. You would then ask me how I know.

This is essentially what non-believers are asking. Believers that come forward and make the claim that they know God exists and that he wants to help us, the natural first question is "Why do you believe that, where is he?" You would be a stupendous idiot to give someone $50 because he said it was the only way to save the world from cosmic destruction without first asking him for some evidence of this impending doom.

As for asking proof of their non-belief, well that's just silly. That's akin to me asking you to prove your non-belief that rubber-coated paint pellets are an aphrodisiac. It's something you had never even thought of until some yokel came up and tried to sell the idea to you. Burden of proof is upon those declaring the abnormal or sensational truism, not on the poor bastard standing in line at McDonalds waiting to get breakfast.
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 02:26 pm
What if we just stipulate that we can't prove God exist and leave it at that? Where does any discussion go from there?
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Questioner
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 02:29 pm
revel wrote:
What if we just stipulate that we can't prove God exist and leave it at that? Where does any discussion go from there?


Well, I imagine from there it would either go to:

"Then why do you believe as you do?" Which generally ends up with a flustered believer saying "I believe what I believe.", or "You obviously don't understand!"

or

"Why did you make the statement that God exists if you can't prove it?" Which will generally wind up in the same manner as the aforementioned.
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 02:38 pm
I can't speak for everyone, but most of the time people who like to discuss religious issues in message board forums who are on the side of believers, just say that they believe God exist. You don't necessarily have to prove a belief.
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Questioner
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 03:05 pm
revel wrote:
I can't speak for everyone, but most of the time people who like to discuss religious issues in message board forums who are on the side of believers, just say that they believe God exist. You don't necessarily have to prove a belief.


True. However, when someone comes forth and states, in this particular environment, "God exists, and he loves you all!", that person WILL be challenged and questioned. Believe whatever you want, but if you don't want to be questioned or challenged about your beliefs, keep them to yourself.

This is what discussion and debate is. That is what these forums appear to be about.
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Bartikus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 03:07 pm
Questioner wrote:
revel wrote:
What if we just stipulate that we can't prove God exist and leave it at that? Where does any discussion go from there?


Well, I imagine from there it would either go to:

"Then why do you believe as you do?" Which generally ends up with a flustered believer saying "I believe what I believe.", or "You obviously don't understand!"

or

"Why did you make the statement that God exists if you can't prove it?" Which will generally wind up in the same manner as the aforementioned.


Why would a non believer care what the reasons are for a believer to believe questioner?
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Questioner
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 03:09 pm
Bartikus wrote:
Why would a non believer care what the reasons are for a believer to believe questioner?


Read my above post where that question is outlined in detail. I'll be happy to elaborate further if needed.
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Bartikus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 03:12 pm
Questioner wrote:
Bartikus wrote:
Why would a non believer care what the reasons are for a believer to believe questioner?


Read my above post where that question is outlined in detail. I'll be happy to elaborate further if needed.


I'm I nuts for thinking that many in these forums only question believers to ridicule, mock, and make fun of someone else. What does one get from that?
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 03:14 pm
I can think of no good reason to know why the imaginary friend crowd think as they do. I will not fail, however, to challenge their impositions. At a site such as this, at which debate, challenge and incredulity are bread and meat, it is an imposition to assert that one can propose such belief as reasonable and go unchallenged.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 03:14 pm
Bartikus wrote:
Why would a non believer care what the reasons are for a believer to believe questioner?

Perhaps for much the same reason its amusing to watch a pup enthusiastically chase its own tail.
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Questioner
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 03:19 pm
Bartikus wrote:
Questioner wrote:
Bartikus wrote:
Why would a non believer care what the reasons are for a believer to believe questioner?


Read my above post where that question is outlined in detail. I'll be happy to elaborate further if needed.


I'm I nuts for thinking that many in these forums only question believers to ridicule, mock, and make fun of someone else. What does one get from that?


You're free to think what you will, and it very well may be true from some. Those aren't the reasons I ask questions or challenge believers on what they believe.

I try not to ridicule and mock, but I damned well will continue to challenge things. I have reasons for doing so, and they have nothing to do with anyone on these forums.

Cheers.
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Bartikus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 03:20 pm
timberlandko wrote:
Bartikus wrote:
Why would a non believer care what the reasons are for a believer to believe questioner?

Perhaps for much the same reason its amusing to watch a pup enthusiastically chase its own tail.


Whatever makes your day I guess.
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Bartikus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 03:21 pm
Questioner wrote:
Bartikus wrote:
Questioner wrote:
Bartikus wrote:
Why would a non believer care what the reasons are for a believer to believe questioner?


Read my above post where that question is outlined in detail. I'll be happy to elaborate further if needed.


I'm I nuts for thinking that many in these forums only question believers to ridicule, mock, and make fun of someone else. What does one get from that?


You're free to think what you will, and it very well may be true from some. Those aren't the reasons I ask questions or challenge believers on what they believe.

I try not to ridicule and mock, but I damned well will continue to challenge things. I have reasons for doing so, and they have nothing to do with anyone on these forums.

Cheers.


Do you care to share what some of those reasons might be?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 03:22 pm
Oh man, what a swifty . . .
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Questioner
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 03:23 pm
Bartikus wrote:
Do you care to share what some of those reasons might be?


Not particularly.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 03:28 pm
Bartikus wrote:
I'm I nuts for thinking that many in these forums only question believers to ridicule, mock, and make fun of someone else. What does one get from that?

One gets from a discussion pretty much in proportion to and as what one brings to a discussion.

Bartikus wrote:
timberlandko wrote:
Bartikus wrote:
Why would a non believer care what the reasons are for a believer to believe questioner?

Perhaps for much the same reason its amusing to watch a pup enthusiastically chase its own tail.


Whatever makes your day I guess.

I submit that is yet another evasive reply, a non sequitur, a straw man, evidencing precisely the failing you purport to decry. I submit once more the challenge you have failed to meet:

Demonstrate that "Faith" and "Superstition" be functionally differentiable - note the "Functionally" requirement; neither personal preference nor social convention makes the cut.

I submit further that absent substantive, credible, proper-to-form rebuttal of the as-issued challenge, "Faith", central to the core proposition of Christianity, stands refuted, and thus perforce also does the proposition itself.
0 Replies
 
 

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