I Say We Duke It Out!

Yes, I want freedom from religion. I did junior high in the south. We prayed in school, or pretended to pray. We didn't have to, of course. We could be called out, and shamed in class for not believing. The experience you are having on a2k pales in comparison.

No, I don't attack or belittle anyone for their beliefs, but I'm way older now, and you, nor anyone else is forcing them on me. Peer pressure just doesn't have the power it used to.

We aren't going to fight over this; just letting you know.

Roger,

Thank you so much for responding. I am so sorry that happened to anyone when you were in school. It was so wrong for anyone to do that. So wrong.

No, I have no fight with you Roger. You have always been kind and considerate and respectful. I am just hoping to get it all out in the open with the ones that aren't as civil as you.

One of the main things I object to with this whole ongoing discussion is the idea that if I argue with any Christian poster's position -- that, for example, "In God We Trust" should be on money -- I am against God or Christianity.

I'm not.

I don't believe in God, so the first part is kind of inoperative. (Are you against the boogie man?) I'm not against Christianity as a whole, and respect that many good things that have come of it. One example is the role it had in the civil rights movement.

None of this means that I will automatically agree with what someone says merely because that person professes to be a Christian. If I disagree, I'll say so -- just as if someone who is disabled, or black, or female, or Chinese, or gay, or Buddhist says something I disagree with, I'll say so. Am I discriminating against all of them, too?

Oh, crap. You are so put upon. Without unbelievers, there would be virtually no action in these type threads. It would be so boring, most believers would avoid it too.

MA, can you look honestly at 6000 years of priest induced bloodshed and religiously motivated wars and not understand why so many hate religion?

When they ask why God allows babies to die, they are told God needed the babies in heaven.

When they say they can't believe in such a God, they are told they will burn in hell.

When the politicians need soldiers, the priests deliver the sacrifices to the front.

When a peacemaker stands up, he is reviled by the clergy.

To top it all off, the pharisees send eviscerated moral messages to the flock, the blind leading the blind into the pit.

Etc.

Etc.

Religious leaders bear a heavy burden of guilt. We follow at our peril.

Momma Angel, you wrote:"Hey, here's your chance ~ no holes barred."

As this is the Spirituality & Religion forum, I promise I won't go there.

Sozobe,

Thank you for your answer. I am not talking about someone just disagreeing. I don't recall you ever exhibiting the kind of behavior I am talking about.

Edgar,

I think you might be misinterpeting my intent on this thread. I really want to know the things I ask. Feeling put upon has absolutely nothing to do with this.

I just thought if I could get everyone to tell me in one thread I wouldn't keep asking the same things over and over again.

Neo,

Well, I have not told anyone they are going to burn in hell. Thanx for your answers too!

I do not know whether any gods exist or not, but I would bet against the Judeo-Christian God being real based on what I have read in the Bible and the illogical beliefs and behavior of his followers.

I post in these forums because I enjoy debating the subject and to refute some of the misunderstandings and outright lies knowingly or unknowingly spread by alleged Christians who are incredibly ignorant about their own religious history and the Bible.

I am tired of alleged Christians telling us that if we don't buy into their version of the truth, we will go to hell. I'm tired of them knocking on my door trying to save my soul or enrich their church or whatever. I'm tired of them squashing research that could someday save lives, telling us that we should not abort fetuses but send our sons to die in senseless wars, telling me who I may love and who I should stone to death, putting religious slogans on coins, posting religious tracts in schools and courthouses, and demanding that merchants promote Christian holy days and ignore the diverse traditions practiced in this country.

I do not hate any gods or most of their followers. I just wish they would stop trying to impose their beliefs on the rest of us.

Precisely. Well stated.

I don't hate Christianity. I find the life and example of the Jesus in the Bible to be commendable. I love passages on forgiveness, helping the poor, non-violence and love for ones neighbor.

I hate Christians (meaning the hypocritical hyper-religious people who call themselves Christians today.).

I hate the moralism and judmentalism. I hate the need to mandate (through law and culture) what is an acceptable lifestyle.

I hate the unholy alliance Christianity has made with the far right-- taking unchristian stances about killing as a punishment for crimes and ending social safegaurds for the poor.

The US Christians affect friends of mine with its hatred of immigrants and same-sex couples.

I hate the pettiness of Christians violating the law to keep the 10 commandments on public property, and God on money while ignoring (and even worsening) social problems.

If Christians were anything like Christ, I would probably like them.

American Christians make my country and my community a worse place to live in.

Terry,

Thank you for such an honest frank answer to my question. So, if Christians were to stop coming to your door and we took God off the money, and we stopped trying to change the laws because we feel they are against God's will, then you would be okay with Christians? And, again, I have never told anyone on these threads they are going to hell. And I don't believe that many Christians believe we should stone anyone.

Bookmarking. I have something to say here, but will wait until I feel more coherent.

Merry Andrew,

Let 'er rip. I am very serious about this. Just from the posts I have read so far I have a much better understanding of the posters. Thank you for posting. And I promise, no recriminations for anything you say. What is said in this thread, stays in this thread.

ebrown_p,

As always, very eloquent. And I definitely agree with you about Christians (or anyone for that matter) breaking the law in defense of their cause. I abhor abortion clinic bombings, etc. I don't believe that is the way Jesus would want us to do anything. Thank you for posting.

Momma, Just to clarify... I wasn't talking about abortion clinic bombers they are a fringe who doesn't have much impact other than headlines.

My anger is with everyday mainline Christians who

- Oppose bans on handguns and support the "Castle provision" laws which give you the right to shoot unarmed crooks.

- Call themselves "pro-life" for stopping abortion and saving brain-dead patients and yet call for the quick executions of very alive adults.

- Oppose gay marriage with extreme claims and gay adoption meaning kids will remain in the foster care system instead of in families.

- Vitriolically attack immigrants families. They not only, opposite the example of Christ, harshly invoke laws over the needs of families-- they actually oppose forgiveness (amnesty).

- Are nearly absent on issues of ending torture or stopping war.

- Oppose legislation to prevent hate crimes for fear of hurting the Christians who want to commit hate crimes.

- Are more worried about keeping God's name on money than on supporting policies that will help the poor.



If there is a God, the millions of Americans who go to their very segregated churches every Sunday don't provide any evidence.

I'll be back later with some appropriate prose.

For me it is those that feel they know the mind of God so well that they act like a God. Which means they do all the things that ebrown listed plus more and then justify it because God told them to.

Thanx for elaborting more ebrown.

Kickycan, looking forward to it. Thanx for telling me you're coming back.

parados, thank you for posting too. All this information is quite helpful.

ebrown_p, your comments in this thread follow many of my thoughts of Christianity. I like the views and outlooks presented by Christianity in the bible. On the other hand, I don't like the stifling standards and practices of modern Christianity.

Momma Angel, I can honestly see where you're coming from. I really can; I just can't agree with many of the things that you say in this forum. And so, I try to stay out of the conversation, but this one I will respond to.

First of all, you want to know why people hang out in the S&R forum if they are non-believers. They do it because, they are believers, whatever you say. They believe that there is no god, or that they don't know, or they believe in science and reason over religion. They are believers just as much as you are. Now that that's out of the way, I'll tell you the very obvious reason that supposed 'nonbelievers' hang out in this forum: They hang out in this forum because they want to, like you, defend their beliefs and/or they are, of course, genuinely interested in the topics.

Second, from your first post I'm guessing you want to know, generally, why some people do not believe in the existence of God. I think a better question, and one that would illustrate why some people don't believe God's existence would be: Why do you believe? Why do you believe in God? What compels you to believe in God? What exactly causes someone to become a believer? How did you, other than being told as a child, discover that God truly existed? How exactly did you know? etc. etc. You may answer these questions if you wish, but that's not really the point.

No offense intended. Thanks for listening.

MA,

Freedom from religion is the same thing as freedom of religion. Imagine that the majority religion was (Pick one other than yours.) Then think about how you would feel if you were forced to celebrate any of the holidays of that religion. Think about how you would feel if that religion passed laws based on that religion that seemed to go against yours.

People of the majority religion that can't imagine being the minority don't understand religion at all. It's easy to belong if it doesn't cost you anything.

Thomas Jefferson once said something to the effect that the only laws that come from religious grounds should be ones agreed to by EVERY religion.