I Say We Duke It Out!

parados,

I already have freedom of religion and so do you. If you don't want a religion then you don't practice one.

You are forced to celebrate holidays? What holidays are you forced to celebrate. I know many Christians that do not believe in celebrating Christmas. No one forces them to celebrate it.

Now, the thing to say is Happy Holidays so you aren't being forced to call it Christmas.

I understand exactly what you are saying parados. Yes, there are more important things than God being taken off money and out of the public buildings. I can accept that if it were to stop there.

I don't believe everyone that is against same sex marriage is Christian, do you? Do you think everyone is against it because they are Christian? Do you think everyone that is against abortion is Christian?

If the same sex marriage laws are put into effect then they are legal. I won't participate in them but neither will I condemn anyone else that does.

Easy to belong if it doesn't cost you anything? Boy, do you not know me. These things do cost me, just as I feel they cost everyone concern no matter which side of the fence you are on.

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The vast moajority of the world's problems stems from religion in one form or another. It's necessary for those of us who are sane to keep a tab on religionists. Hopefully some of you will "see the light" of logic and reason.

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Re: I Say We Duke It Out!

Momma Angel wrote:

For those that know me (in these threads) you know how much I hate it when someone demeans God or anyone for their belief in God.

Getting upset - all mean, mad, angry, and personal - is pointless, and is the hallmark of failed argument, regardless one's position on the issue at discussion. Pointing out and attacking absurdities, inaccuracies, logical flaws, and other errors or shortcomings in the argument, position, or opinion of one's opponent in a discussion - debating the issue - is the point of the excercize.

One presenting an extraordinary claim is obliged on challenge to provide extraordinary support for that claim. Absent extraordinary support in validation, the proposition embodying the extraordinary claim at discussion invites and merits ridicule. Ripping an argument, assertion, position, or opinion to shreds is not at all the same thing as demeaning the presenter of that argument, assertion, position, or opinion. Too often, those unable effectively to rebut or refute argument counter to their proposition infer personal affront where none was implied, offered, or intended.

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Well, c'mon, let's have it. Let's have it out. I want to know something. If you are so against God or Christianity, why do you hang out in the Spirituality and Religion forums?

Personally, its a guilty pleasure - the entertainment value is immense, and requires very little intellectual heavy lifting. Its fun, and its easy.

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If you are one that wants freedom from religion and not just freedom of religion, I'd like to know why.

While the utopian ideal of freedom from religion has appearl beyond measure, the humane ideal of freedom of religion is an inherent right, to be cherished, and defended with all possible diligence, ethics, morality, and intellectual honesty; its part and parcel of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. None of that in any way conveys to the religionist any privilege to impose any particular belief set on anyone, and I get real excercized when I see that happening, too.

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Why do you feel you have the right to belittle and demean a believer?

Some may feel they have that right, but none in fact have any such right, either in the abstract or on these boards. Ideas, propositions, opinions, and or the manner of presentation of same, yeah ... those are all fair game - that's debate. Attacking, belittling, or demeanining the person of an individual espousing or otherwise endorsing said ideas, propositions, opinions is unacceptable

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And I am not buying that "it's because religion is a choice" thing.

Nothing there to buy, its free, its a given. Denying that changes that not a whit.

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Discrimination against anyone for any particular thing is just that, discrimination.

Absolutely. However, challenge and criticism are not discrimination, they are debate.

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So, who will step up and be really honest about these things?

Just of the toppa my head, I imagine I have done just that on these boards hundreds if not thousands, of times.

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Hey, here's your chance ~ no holes barred. You can say what you want to say.

Thanks ... glad you approve. Your gracious permision aside, however, that's precisely the way I go about it here, have gone about it, a dhall continue to go about ot ... here or elsewhere.

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I am not going to call anyone on their use of words in THIS THREAD. And, I promise not to carry anything said in this thread over to another one.

Your call; nobody can tell what to post here - or, insofar as is consistent with The Terms, where to say it.

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I want to know what makes people think and why they act the way they do concerning religion.

Easy enough to figure out my positon on the issue - just read my posts (save yourself somethime if you wish; limit your research to just the Spirituality & Religon forum and the Philosophy & Debate forum - that oughtta whittle the pool down to a couple thousand posts); I'm upfront, unambiguous, and consistent in explaining why I feel as I feel about religion.

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Momma

Well I guess you asked for it, so here's mine.

First I need to repeat what seems like a common complaint: hypocrisy. Support for capital punishment, support for preemptive wars, overwhelming support for political agendas (and a certain political party) that feed the fat cats with corporate bail-outs, and shady trade deals, etc. I hate the way the majority of Christians will rally behind a politician just because he/she claims to be "born again". Politicians! I mean, don't you know they'll say whatever they think you want to hear? I live in Texas, and there are herds of people everywhere down here who support the president "because he's Christian".

Second, it bothers me that Christians (and other religions) cannot open up enough to consider that maybe their faith is not the only one true faith, that other religions might offer the exact same thing in different clothes. When I was growing up as a Roman Catholic I was forbidden by the Church to independently investigate any other religion. I was made to believe that such activity would invite Satan into my life. By choosing to stay blind to other belief systems, Christians isolate themselves from the rest of us.

Lastly, is the hostility I get from most Christians when I try to have a conversation with them (you, Momma, are a rare exception). They are not Christ-like. They are bulldogs. They seem to know little about the history of their own religion or of the Bible, and when they hear something about it that they don't like, and that they can't refute, they quickly become frustrated and defensive. They have their beliefs, and they are not interested in learning anything unless it supports what they already think they know.

So, I'll leave it at that.
Pretty gutsy to start this thread, MA. Thanks.

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Re: I Say We Duke It Out!

Momma Angel wrote:

Well, c'mon, let's have it. Let's have it out. I want to know something. If you are so against God or Christianity, why do you hang out in the Spirituality and Religion forums?

Because this forum is for talking about religion, not for praising or practicing it. So why not?

Momma Angel wrote:

If you are one that wants freedom from religion and not just freedom of religion, I'd like to know why.

Because I don't like the state to have religious views which it imposes on me. Since I am an atheist, that is true for any religion; but even if I had remained a Lutheran, I would not like the state of Bavaria to impose its Catholicism onto me.

Momma Angel wrote:

Why do you feel you have the right to belittle and demean a believer?

I don't. I do, however, feel I have the right to speak out against beliefs I find stupid. I also feel it makes no difference if the nature of the belief is political, religious, or anything else.

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I've stated my belief a dozen times, if not a hundred. As a child, I tried to become a Christian. Nothing I saw or heard attending church and reading the Bible could allay my skepticism. One night, lying in bed and mulling it over, as I did almost every night, I faced up to my atheism, accepting the consequences and the benefits of the decision. On the minus side, the derision and loss of the feeling of brotherhood, no hope of eternal life. On the plus side, free to examine life without blinders, the knowledge that life's contentment should be sought now, not in the afterlife. For years I experimented with Buddhism, attended Jewish services in bootcamp, attended Scientology services- -nothing altered the fact that I was an atheist.

The Earth is almost less than a speck in the universe. For billions of years there were no humans. When they did finally emerge from their ape background, they slowly established beliefs in the supernatural and then gods, finally, God, or Allah, or whatever. In the final nanosecond of time, suddenly it is decided that God exists, mostly in a form that mirrors humanity. Why does he exist? Because the mind says so. Proof? Well, I was talking with him last night, or, Something had to create it all. As Freud stated, God was created in the image of man. Even those who espouse the unfeeling, uninvolved God have not truly divorced God from the wrathful old man with a beard concept.

Christians? They have always tried to force others to accept their beliefs, believing they have to go to the heathen and save his soul. A man I used to work with tried to argue with me on the job all the time. I soundly rejected him. Then one day, we went in his home for a few minutes. He grabbed a Bible and began reading, "For God so loved the world" or something as fast as he could, until I walked outside. He sent his pastor to my home. I told him the same thing I told the other guy. Do you think they quit after that? No; I had to break off all contact with both of them. I formed my own roofing company and quit working with the guy. This same scenario gets repeated wherever I go.

It's mainly the fundamentalist minded Christians that want to jamb religion into every aspect of public life, and gets offended when told they can't do it. They are like sand flowing around your arguments with their faith, making the same points over and over, as though trying to wear you down, or catch you in an unwary moment to move in and take control. To the sign on the door that reads, Not Wanted, they shrug and continue to beat on the door.

Fundamentalist Christians are much smarter than folks give them credit for. They know instinctively that science has destroyed their little fantasy. That is why so many reject the very fundamentals of scientific thought.

Christians who practice their belief without trying to run everyone's lives are welcome, as are any other religious people. But Christians can't live the whole religion without meddling in non believers' lives, for the Bible tells them to spread the good news. That's when I close my ears and my door.

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I have nothing against the majority of Christians, especially seeing as in my country, the majority are Christians. Three-quarters of people surveyed said they were Christian.

What I do have a grudge against are the minority of fundamentalists that speak out as if they represent the majority of Christianity. These people seem more abundant in the US than in my own country, the UK, despite the fact that by state law, all children are to be taught Christianity and morning Christian worship must be held (if only once a week).

You'd think that with all this forcing of children to attend morning worship and to be taught Genesis and therefore Creationism, and so forth, would have increased the number of the type of Christians I despise. No. On the contrary, the people here are even less fervent in their belief than the Americans.

Evolution is not a controversy. ID is not an issue and is irrelevant. Creationism is regarded as completely allegorical.

There are no potential religious phrases in public places or on money.

No one goes around saying "God bless the UK" or "God bless the Queen" for that matter (unless singing the National Anthem).

Oh, there are a few nutcases around here, that stand outside the shops and shout things like "You are going to die! Not just a physical death but a spiritual death!" But they're not very many.

Then I look over to the US and I see people parading around with banners sayihng "God hates fags". People arguing against evolution and then having the nerve to push their God as an alternative (because let's face it, Buddhists have nothing against evolution and nor do Hindus. In fact, many of the eastern Religions don't have anything against it. It seems to be only the Abrahamic religions that have anything against evolution).

Freedom of religion is all good and well, but freedom of religion also means freedom from religion. Therefore, I do not want someone going out there lobbying to change laws so that it becomes more like those mandates of their God, because that would then be forcing their viewpoint on me.

Furthermore, to me, many of these religions seem a bit nihilist. They can encourage the, "Things will get sorted out in the afterlife" mentality that seems to be common to those supporters of death penalties and so forth.

Oh, and as for why do I keep coming here...?

I dunno. Maybe I'm a sado masochist, because some of the things I read here (especially those from gungasnake) tend to make me very angry. I really should stop coming here...

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LOL I love the tittle to this thread!!! "I Say We Duke It Out!" LOL

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Duke:
"Well pilgrim, I say there's only room for one of us in this life-cycle so I'm sending you on to the next."
Happy Holidays.

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LOL

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On the one hand I can see where momma angel is coming from and on the other I can see where ebrown is coming from big time.

I used to go to a religious message board for years before they shut it down and I got to admit that I miss it more than I can express because I haven't found anything that can come close to replacing it. So I have just stuck to politics. Sometimes I admit that I long for a break.

I found that if I want to get into a bible debate, this is not really the site to do it.

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I've been where Mamma is and where Revel has been. I prefer where I am now. This board actually made me look at my beliefs, those I had been raised with and accepted just 'cause the adults in my life said it was so.

I'm no longer a 'christian." But, that isn't due to this board or anyone on it demeaning me for my beliefs or demeaning the God I believe in. I actually have had a change of heart since Bush and the Christian Right took over our government and gave Christians a bad name. I don't want to be like them. I'd rather live like Jesus to the best of my ability, knowing I'm doing my best to promote the wellbeing of all living things in every interaction I have here on earth.

Does that make me a Buddhist or something other than a Christian? I have no idea. But, I like myself better this way. And, I thank those on this forum that keep the religion and spirituality section going. It's always good to explore our beliefs and why we have them. It allows for growth and better understanding no matter which "side" one is on in the debate.

MA, I can't seem to find a btter way to say this, so here it is...

Sometimes we are afraid to explore our beliefs because we don't want to be wrong or because we aren't ready to face the alternative, and that applies to all things we believe, not just religion. We hold on to certain beliefs because it makes us feel safe in some way. That's okay. We all come to understandings of things in our own time and as we need to.

I notice in your posts that you tend to get defensive at times that I would not find a defensive response necessary. If you belive in God, and God is all powerful and all knowing and perfect, then I imagine He can defend Himself. God does not require that you come to His defense when someone here posts something you read as being demeaning of God. Therefore, I read your responses to such posts as being more of an attempt to protect yourself.

Sometimes we are presented with information that makes us feel uncomfortable or might make us question deeply held beliefs. That can be frightening. But, it doesn't mean the person presenting that information to you is doing so to be hateful or derogatory towards you or your god. If that were the case, then you presenting your beliefs here could be judged demeaning of those that do not believe as you do.

Which brings me to the lovely statement made by Cav...

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<giggling>

Squinney, I'm much like you in my position - but I still consider myself a Christian. I usually just qualify it by saying that I'm not an American-style Christian. Living a good life, being a good person - but trying not to impose my beliefs on anyone else.

There have been moments where I've wondered if I'm starting to lean in a reform Jewish direction, in a reaction against the kind of Christianity which seems to be practiced in the U.S. (or at least, gets the publicity). After all, Jesus was a Jewish teacher. And then I realize I might simply be revisiting a form of Lutheranism.

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(great to see you, squinney!)

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Thanks, soz. Great to be back! I missed you all!!!

ehBeth, funny how Cav can still make me giggle or bring a tear to my eye when I come across his posts.

I was trying to distinguish myself from the christians with a little "c" - which is how I now refer to those in the government / christian right trying to take over with their very non Christian dogma.

I still believe there is a higher power, or force (God if you like) and Jesus may have been the human form of that force. Just not buying into the "believe this 'cause you may be raptured at any moment" or be damned to hell stuff.

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In the main, the largest problem I have with Christianity is that there's too many Christians in it.

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Momma Angel wrote:

parados,

I already have freedom of religion and so do you. If you don't want a religion then you don't practice one.

You are forced to celebrate holidays? What holidays are you forced to celebrate. I know many Christians that do not believe in celebrating Christmas. No one forces them to celebrate it.

But they are in a way forced to do so. Try going to a restaurant or store on Christmas. Now turn it around and imagine all stores were closed on muslim religious holidays. Imagine during Ramadan you couldn't find an open restaurant from sun up to sun down. You have done precisely what I said I hated. You seem unable to imagine a different religious majority.

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Now, the thing to say is Happy Holidays so you aren't being forced to call it Christmas.

I understand exactly what you are saying parados. Yes, there are more important things than God being taken off money and out of the public buildings. I can accept that if it were to stop there.

I don't believe everyone that is against same sex marriage is Christian, do you? Do you think everyone is against it because they are Christian? Do you think everyone that is against abortion is Christian?

I dont' know to many that hold those beliefs that don't claim to have them because of "religious ideals." The weekly vigil at the abortion clinic near me always has a prayer session and I never see anyone protesting that doesn't attend that. Eric Rudolph who bombed abortion clinics had this to say.

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The Republican party is the modern equivalent to the Pharisaical sect in ancient Judea. "You are like whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and all uncleanness. Even so you outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within you are full of hypocrisy and inequity." Matthew 23:28. The coward Bush talks about the "culture of life," but intends to effect no change with respect to Roe v. Wade. He made this perfectly clear when he stated during the stem cell debate that "America is not ready to abolish Roe v. Wade." ....

Along with abortion, another assault upon the integrity of American society is the concerted effort to legitimize the practice of homosexuality. Homosexuality is an aberrant sexual behavior, and as such I have complete sympathy and understanding for those who are suffering from this condition. Practiced by consenting adults within the confines of their own private lives, homosexuality is not a threat to society. Those consenting adults practicing this behavior in privacy should not be hassled by a society which respects the sanctity of private sexual life. But when the attempt is made to drag this practice out of the closet and into the public square in an "in your face" attempt to force society to accept and recognize this behavior as being just as legitimate and normal as the natural man/woman relationship, every effort should be made, including force if necessary, to halt this effort.

This effort is commonly known as the homosexual agenda. Whether it is gay marriage, homosexual adoption, hate crimes laws including gays, or the attempt to introduce a homosexual normalizing curriculum into our schools, all of these efforts should be ruthlessly opposed.

Look at the most outspoken opponents of abortion, homosexuality, and gay marraige. Randall Terry, James Dobson. I can't think of any that don't use religion as their basis for opposition.

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If the same sex marriage laws are put into effect then they are legal. I won't participate in them but neither will I condemn anyone else that does.

Easy to belong if it doesn't cost you anything? Boy, do you not know me. These things do cost me, just as I feel they cost everyone concern no matter which side of the fence you are on.

Does it cost you the same that it costs Eric Rudolph? Why does gay marriage cost you anything? Tell us. If your relationship with God is personal how can it possibly affect it?

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The thing that pisses me off the most about "Christians" is when those on the fringe play the "Christian" card. Just because I disagree with James Dobson doesn't mean I hate Christ or religion. I think his version of "Christian" demeans what Christ actually taught. He has the right to be as stupid as he wants to be. But when he hides behind Christ for his stupidity it is only an attempt to get others to rally around him to protect him from the "Christ haters."

Stop looking at the "Christ" argument and start looking at the reality of the argument itself. Until Christians take back Christianity from the lunatics, the term "Christian" will be a perjorative.

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From my point of view as a dyed in the wool believer, I am not at all offended by the barbs and bullets directed at God or religion or (rarely) at me.

I take it as axiomatic that those who post have a reason for posting which transcends their desire for an elevated post count; and I challenge myself to examine the root of their objections for the sake of advancing the truth.

Are some non believers merely trying to justify their desire for moral license? Well, I would direct the same question to many believers who use the bible as an ambidexter implement for self satisfaction.

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Interesting thread.

As a Christian, I find that I am in agreement with what many have to say. I say this because I do not believe that Christians should be part of, or support any particular government. I do not believe that Christians should "force" their beliefs on anyone.

I do, however, think that the offer of what we experience should be made but we should not force the issue if the offer is refused. Everyone is entitled to their own belief system... regardless of what that is. It is not up to us to judge whether someone will "burn in hell". God Himself does not propose to judge a man until he is dead. So why should we?

All "Christians" are not alike. Many people want to serve God, but only as advisers. Perhaps we should have sub headings under Christian so we can be slotted more precisely. God loves everyone, but probably prefers "fruits of the spirit" over "religious nuts! When some hear that you are a Christian, they automatically place you in with the fringe or those with their own agenda. It cannot be accepted that there are those of us who just want to have the freedom to worship our God without persecution. Of course, persecution is probably too strong a word.

I suppose I was naive, because I had not realized that every discussion in a religious forum was viewed as a debate. That does, however, seem to be the case. Emotions run high and things tend to get out of hand. I too have fallen into this. It does not make me feel good about myself and I have to look even deeper within myself to get back on track to where I know I should be and want to be.

Having said that, there are a very few individuals who do not add anything to some of these conversations, but seem to get involved for the sole purpose of trying to rile people up. They are very good at what they intend to do because they are usually successful.

None of us, or at least me, is perfect. Jesus was perfect and that is the model that we want to follow. Admittedly, it is a tough, wide road that we must pass along as we try to get to the narrow road.

I will leave you with this..... People are funny, they want the front of the bus, the middle of the road, and the back of the church.

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I Say We Duke It Out!

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