FIFA World Cup 2006 [R]

But not with football. Not all, speaking here in all seriousness and with more than 50 years of experience calling the Dutch ...

I wonder what they say about mexicans!

Fair point, definitely when it is worded like that. I have to point out here though that in none of my many posts on this thread I have actually used any such phrasing.


That does happen - take the Dutch this WC, for example. For two decades they've been praised for playing such beautiful football, the Brazil of Europe - and then this time, they went for the jugular, playing very rough and dirty indeed.

It doesnt happen a lot, though. Just like countries can have a tradition in music or art, they also have traditions in football. Brazil plays beautiful football, technical wizardry, playful; it's been famed for it for decades. They were below par this tournament, but they didnt suddenly turn into streetfighters. Thats logical, because each generation of footballers learns from its predecessors and older peers (less so admittedly with footballers transferring across the world nowadays, but they still grew up with certain examples and styles).

Just like its fair enough to describe Brazil's music as more of a certain type, compared with, say, German music (or Dutch..), it's perfectly reasonable to characterise Brazilian football as a certain type. That doesnt automatically imply "caustic stereotyping".

The characterisation also doesnt take place in a vacuum. Argentina has a tradition of dirty tricks (as well as impressive players) in football - but its name in music, for example, is wholly different. Although there are certain long-standing rivalries between neighbours where everything tends to come together (hi Walter), I dont think any of the many people here that chided the Portuguese football in this WC would be stupid enough to transfer that image onto the Portuguese as a nation. If for nothing else, because they may also know fado music, or the poetry of Camoes (or the clubs on the Algarve.. or that girl I knew..), or any such counterindication to some image of the Portuguese as a nation of dirty cheats. I've certainly said nothing in any of my posts that would imply it, and that's where I'm calling Craven on it, because he is normally very precise in such things.

Of course, you're right that general characterisations of cultural features - whether a country's style of football, music or whatever - can lead or be used to pursue collective stereotypes. Eg, appreciation of African music becomes "Africans are so rhytmic" becomes "they're just different, more of the body than the mind" or some such (usually more crudely formulated) ****. But for such transference a little more is needed: some follow-up, some context. "A team that's collectively acquired a notoriety for cheating and diving this tournament", or "the Portuguese again and again tried the drama-diving thing", "the Portuguese [did] more of their blatant diving", "[the Portuguese] team makes a travesty of the game", just to quote some of my harshest posts, do not provide any - it all pretty specifically references this team, this tournament, how they played in this game.

(All of which doesnt touch on whyever I should be singled out for racism or "caustic national stereotypes" if you compare my posts to others', but that's the other of two points.)

I think its patently obvious that there are national characteristics which we can take the micky out of when watching a game. It doesnt make one a racist[/i] and actually nimh I dont think anyone was seriously suggesting that you were.

(Hey, you changed your post! Now I have to start over..)

Oh, there was someone here the other day who seemed pretty serious about it... And now we have Craven levelling the slightly lesser charge of pursuing "caustic national stereotypes against certain nations".

Hey, I'm incredulous too, but the charges seem to be meant seriously enough. And of the buttons to be pushing, they happen to be the hottest around, to me. Especially if it happens twice in a row and the first time round came with a truckload of invective.

Still, I hope that any angriness in my reaction to Craven was mostly expressed in length of post, rather than agression of tone. If agression did come through, it's because I'm just feeling distinctly corralled by now.

And the funny thing is that someone who reacts in atypical fury and bile is reassured and been concerned over, but because I react with at least a modicum of reason, people apparently assume I can handle it all, and I'm fine. Which is not necessarily the case.

Speaking about the match tonight: I truely think that the Portuguese would deserve a better place than ending up fourth what they'll do.

(That, however, only because they stayed close to my place, used our local airport ...)

I'd just let it ride now nimh. I think a couple of people may have misjudged/misread or were otherwise misled about the intent of your posts. The focus is now on...... on......... what the hell were we talking about?

do you mean the mexi-cannot

Which made you the ideal candidate for racist of the world cup award

To be serious though, being unfairly accused of racism is pretty despicable. I have felt so when anti semitism was levelled against me for being critical of Israel and being anti-Muslim for speaking out about the wacky ideas of Islam.

Ah, boo you!!!

And, by the way, our national team does reflect some characters in our society.

We simply can't deliver.

Hopefully we will see a very open game today. Thanks to this italianization we've seen, Joseph Blatter is now thinking new measures to make the sport more offensive. Bigger archs? Ten players? Offfside rule modified?

anyroadup enough of this non football stuff

back to the beautiful game

I suppose you're right. I guess also that because on Politics etc I tend to - overall - be annoyingly scrupled and nuanced, people who first see me let loose more eh, colloquially on the leisure forums will be wrongfooted, and express surprise. Doesnt make it OK to make wild claims tho.


I see what you mean and will keep it in mind ;-)

I'm gonna miss the game tonight ... Portugal and Germany, thats just too depressing for a Dutchman at this moment, sorry ;-).

As for tomorrow, allez les bleus!!

An aside: you still have the chance to get Klinsmann's beetle (cabrio) ... but at this time, it costs already more than the Pope's old Golf ...

Why don't you just own up to the fact that you're a repressed nationalist, nimh?

mexi-cannot.

Oh the laughter squirting on the screen...

Brutal!!


<not>

There you go Tico, haha I personally won't address nimh anymore. He's
going to whine for years to come anyway about me telling him he's got to
eat more.

---

Back to FIFFA, the real topic here: Soon the game starts, and I still like to see Figo (my 10 year old is partial to Ronaldo), and I like to see Germany win of course.

The WC fever has gone as far as making me listen to german pop groups, like "2raumwohnung" - Thank you Joe. Is that even a word?

And although I wanted Germay to not win the cup, it would be pretty for them to get the 3rd spot. Go Kahn!

Is Kahn in the goal this time?

Yes he is! And thats quite a leg!

Lehman offered him the spot to thank him for his "support". A good gesture really.

I never called you racist and made very clear that I held no such opinion in post #2131748 when I realized I walked into that particular spat.

I don't know what the heck you think quoting other people has to do with the validity of my comments. I disagreed with your vitrol and that stands, I haven't read every post on this thread and don't have to read or comment on them to disagree with you.

If you want to make some case for me not having evenly criticized each and every statement I might disagree with in this thread then spare yourself the time, as I'm perfectly willing to acknowledge that there may be statements from others that I disagree with, I'm also of the opinion that I very likely made an overstatement myself in my criticism. I was surprised that you were being so unreasonable and biased. Only that and nothing more.

Again, I have nothing to do with whatever problems you are having with being called racist, skinny (???) and whatever else you say you are being maligned for. I commented merely on what I think is unreasonable vitrol that you've already owned up to yourself. I stand by my surprise at your caustic words about several national teams and your unreasonable bias in regard to your criticisms of their sportsmanship even if I may have misstated it.

I initially felt bad that you'd felt piled on about this at first but now just think you need to get over yourself. I had no idea you'd act like such a hypocritical (your vitrol is just good fun, criticism of it is grave and serious ) puber over it.

Get a grip. I'm not going to play windmill for you.