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DOES THE ACLU DO MORE GOOD OR MORE HARM?

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 09:28 am
Quote:
Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.


So, foxfyre, this sentence is an exaggeration? A handy falsehood meant to please his listeners? The idea - "is absolutely essential in a free society" - actually means something like "it's not really essential"?
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 09:31 am
No it is accurate within the context Jefferson meant it. It was not intended to be used as many anti-religion types use it. It was an affirmation that there would be no state religion and the government wouldn't be interfering with those Baptists or any other religious group to impose its own rules and regulations regarding religion belief.
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kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 09:34 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Even if they can [Las Cruces pay the award]--I would imagine several hundred thousand in legal fees could be much better spent on schools, hospitals, roads, and parks--why should they have to?


And they wouldn't have to if they just followed the law and take the religious symbols out of the state seal. The courts have ruled over and over again that just because the place had a religious origin is no reason the present day seal has to have a religious symbol. I am certain the municipalities in question had lawyers who told them this. So it is their own fault if they get socked with the award.

The reason the law requires them to pay attorney's fees is that a civil rights violation is a very grevious violation, so Congress wanted to make sure that municipalities didn't try all sorts of sneaky stuff to violate them. Making sure that the government entities in question knew they would be stuck with the attorney's fees if they lost was a way to ensure that they got the message that civil rights violations are not a joke.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 09:38 am
Las Cruces had no law that the seal was illegal. Las Cruces believes the Constitution prohibits the government from making any law respective to Las Cruces's seal. They believe any court rulings to the contrary are wrong. They have a constitutionally protected right to believe anything they want to believe.

There is a growing groundswell of Americans who are ready to take on the ACLU, the courts, the government, or anybody else who attempts to deny them their First Amendment rights. Artwork does not deny anybody their constitutional rights.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 09:51 am
Foxfyre wrote:
No it is accurate within the context Jefferson meant it. It was not intended to be used as many anti-religion types use it. It was an affirmation that there would be no state religion and the government wouldn't be interfering with those Baptists or any other religious group to impose its own rules and regulations regarding religion belief.


Well, perhaps not anti-religious but rather for clear separation, on the rationale explicitly advanced by Jefferson.

Is your interpretation then that this was meant to apply strictly to vying Christian sects?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 10:03 am
Just a question aside: is it a seal or a logo? Or a logo, used as a seal as well?

Las Cruces Mayor Bill Mattiace said "The crosses have a basis for being in our logo ..." while here it is always said "seal".
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 10:16 am
It is used in various ways Walter. The three crosses are a kind of logo illustrating the name of the town. The logo appears on the seal too of course, but it is the logo that is the bone of contention of the atheist plaintiff.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 10:24 am
blatham wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
No it is accurate within the context Jefferson meant it. It was not intended to be used as many anti-religion types use it. It was an affirmation that there would be no state religion and the government wouldn't be interfering with those Baptists or any other religious group to impose its own rules and regulations regarding religion belief.


Well, perhaps not anti-religious but rather for clear separation, on the rationale explicitly advanced by Jefferson.

Is your interpretation then that this was meant to apply strictly to vying Christian sects?


I don't find any evidence that Jefferson restricted freedom of religion to only Christian sects. At the time he was in leadership roles, there really were no religions he dealt with other than Christianity, but there is certainly nothing in the federalist papers or the Constitution to suggest that Christianity was to be the only religion allowed. Unlike some, I give Jefferson a lot of credit for reasoning out these things. He had no problem with prayers or even worship services in government chambers, schools, or anywhere else. He certainly had no problem with religious symbols, emblems, mottos, or slogans, and his own religious faith was certainly not orthodox Christianity.

He was not about to allow the government to order any citizen to believe or not believe anything in matters of religious faith nor offer any reward or exact any consequence for what a person believed in matters of religion. That was his intent with the Wall of Separation. Government could not not establish a state religion and could not interfere with people's religious beliefs; and no people could demand that their religion be favored over all others. Jefferson never intended that people in government not be religious, however, or that there should be no religion in government.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 10:28 am
fox

I do need to put time in reading from all the relevant materials from the time. I think it likely I'd come to some different understandings than you do, but I can't make educated arguments against you here.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 10:31 am
With the proviso that I'd probably err towards stricter separation because I think Jefferson's stated rationale is sound, and because I think the soundness of it is now apparent given the impetus from many in the christian right to forward their faith as the one true faith.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 10:32 am
Jefferson's writings do contain comments to the effect that he applied his standards to "Musselmen" (i.e., to Muslims) as he did to christians. It was an easy position for him to take, as he had no dealings with Jews, and the only dealings he had with Muslims was to shamelessly truckle to them, and pay tribute to the Barbary pirates, despite the availability of just about the most professionally efficient navy in the world . . .
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Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 10:35 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Quote:
It is no exaggeration to say that on Sundays in Washington during the administrations of Thomas Jefferson (1801-1809) and of James Madison (1809-1817) the state became the church. Within a year of his inauguration, Jefferson began attending church services in the House of Representatives. Madison followed Jefferson's example, although unlike Jefferson, who rode on horseback to church in the Capitol, Madison came in a coach and four. Worship services in the House--a practice that continued until after the Civil War--were acceptable to Jefferson because they were nondiscriminatory and voluntary. Preachers of every Protestant denomination appeared. (Catholic priests began officiating in 1826.) As early as January 1806 a female evangelist, Dorothy Ripley, delivered a camp meeting-style exhortation in the House to Jefferson, Vice President Aaron Burr, and a "crowded audience." Throughout his administration Jefferson permitted church services in executive branch buildings. The Gospel was also preached in the Supreme Court chambers.

Jefferson's actions may seem surprising because his attitude toward the relation between religion and government is usually thought to have been embodied in his recommendation that there exist "a wall of separation between church and state." In that statement, Jefferson was apparently declaring his opposition, as Madison had done in introducing the Bill of Rights, to a "national" religion. In attending church services on public property, Jefferson and Madison consciously and deliberately were offering symbolic support to religion as a prop for republican government.
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06-2.html



What relevance is the foregoing "quote" to your argument that the depiction of a cross on a municipal seal is NOT an endorsement of religion, but rather a tribute to the history of the area?

Were you merely using the historical role argument as a pretext for your true agenda in advocating for a pro-religion government rather than the neutral government we're entitled to have?
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 10:37 am
thanks, big guy
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 10:43 am
Debra, I think any government who says in its very first amendment that there shall be no state religion and that the people shall not be prohibited from freely exercising their religion is both neutral and pro-religion. The Constitution is pretty clear on that.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 10:48 am
That doesn't make sense. Could it be both neutral and pro-atheism?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 10:52 am
A neutral-pro-religion constitution, blatham, must be neutral-anti-atheism .... maybe, it's the other way round?

Never mind: as a foreigner, I'm neutral-against that.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 10:55 am
You germans...always so complicated.
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kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 11:00 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Las Cruces had no law that the seal was illegal.
Last time I looked, Las Cruces was located in the United States of America, whose Federal courts have ruled that a religious symbol in a town seal, even to commemorate the town's founding, is a violation of the Establishment clause.



Foxfyre wrote:
Las Cruces believes the Constitution prohibits the government from making any law respective to Las Cruces's seal. They believe any court rulings to the contrary are wrong. They have a constitutionally protected right to believe anything they want to believe.
And they have the legal requirement to pay the attorney's fees for anyone who sucessfully challenges their Establishment clause violation. Which they can afford to do, what with a city budget well in excess of $100 millon yearly. The only question that remains is whether they want to do the sensible thing and change the seal, or pull a political grandstand play and cry when they get socked with the bill for violating the Establishment clause.
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 11:04 am
I can believe that the moon is made of green cheese, or that I'm important enough that I should be allowed to use the HOV lane when I'm alone. This does not mean, however, that the moon is actually made of green cheese or that I won't get ticketed.
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 11:06 am
Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Due dilligence.

Any of these applicable to this situation?
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