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DOES THE ACLU DO MORE GOOD OR MORE HARM?

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 11:10 am
Nope, no fit there. Got any involving donkeys and SU carburators?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 11:12 am
blatham wrote:
That doesn't make sense. Could it be both neutral and pro-atheism?


It is. It is neutral and pro-religion. It is neutral and pro-atheism. It doesn't take sides. And it supports anybody exercising their relgiious faith or lack thereof.
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 11:12 am
I'm afraid that one went over my head. But then I could use some more caffeine.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 11:13 am
Foxfyre wrote:
blatham wrote:
That doesn't make sense. Could it be both neutral and pro-atheism?


It is. It is neutral and pro-religion. It is neutral and pro-atheism. It doesn't take sides. And it supports anybody exercising their relgiious faith or lack thereof. Or it is supposed to.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 11:18 am
So then an atheist who wishes removal of a religious symbol (in a government setting) is quite equal to a theist who wishes to add one?
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 11:35 am
DrewDad wrote:
I'm afraid that one went over my head. But then I could use some more caffeine.

I was replying to Blatham's comment regarding donkeys, but it fits equally with Fox's post.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 11:37 am
DrewDad wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
I'm afraid that one went over my head. But then I could use some more caffeine.

I was replying to Blatham's comment regarding donkeys, but it fits equally with Fox's post.


LOL...sorry, just trying to increase the range of optional metaphors.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 11:39 am
blatham wrote:
So then an atheist who wishes removal of a religious symbol (in a government setting) is quite equal to a theist who wishes to add one?


As far as I am concerned s/he is. In such matters that violate absolutely nobody's unalienable, Constitutional, or other legal rights, democracy should kick in and the majority should decide what art work, music, symbols, mottos, slogans, etc. will be included in or on properties they collecively own and finance. If the majority want no religious reference, fine but they should not be allowed to promote atheism either. If the majority wants religious references, then fine but they should be of a historical and cultural nature and should exclude nobody who wants to be included, including the atheists.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 11:46 am
So the drift i see here is that this thread is less concerned with the American Civil Liberties Union, or the concept of civil liberties and their protection, than it is with the sour grapes of people suscribing to the imaginary friend superstition and their whining about being prohibited from imposing their spook nonsense on others . . .

Am i up to speed now?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 11:47 am
Put "small village" in somewhere.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 11:56 am
Foxfyre wrote:
As far as I am concerned s/he is. In such matters that violate absolutely nobody's unalienable, Constitutional, or other legal rights, democracy should kick in and the majority should decide what art work, music, symbols, mottos, slogans, etc. will be included in or on properties they collecively own and finance. If the majority want no religious reference, fine but they should not be allowed to promote atheism either. If the majority wants religious references, then fine but they should be of a historical and cultural nature and should exclude nobody who wants to be included, including the atheists.


This smugness relies upon an unspoken but implicit assumption that the majority are going to come down on the side of christianity--and should fool no one who is literate to at least a fourth grade level. It ignores that the constitution is careful to protect people from minoritarian and majoritarian tyrrany, and displays no conception of either of those ideas. It also ignores that as one layer of religious and historically-phony crap is laid upon another, the range of those approving will inevitably narrow, until the majority of those viewing such nonsense are offending by some aspect of it. The attempt to impose the "ten commandments" on the state of Alabama by a rogue member of its supreme court ignored that there are several versions of those commandments, and that the display would inevitably offend even conservative Protestants who did not happen to subscribe to the particular sectarian version displayed.

This is precisely why there is a no establishment clause, because it will always eventually lead to minoritarian tyrrany. It is not just naive, it is stupid to assume that there is any version of christianity which is "pan-christian" in its appeal. And of course, there is a great range of citizens who are not christian and who are going to justifably resent an attempt to sneak christianity into a governmental display based on a disingenuous appeal to a false historicity.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 12:02 pm
Majority rules?

Love it.

Foxfyre - time to sign up for Chinese language lessons. Spanish if you're interested in a second language.

Quote:
Top 100 Languages by Population
Rank Language Name Primary Country Population
1 CHINESE, MANDARIN China 885,000,000
2 SPANISH Spain 332,000,000
3 ENGLISH United Kingdom 322,000,000


I love when ff throws in "majority rules". Love it.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 12:03 pm
Guess we'll need to get used to rice and veggies, too, eh?
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 12:08 pm
So now we've switched to the COWO?
0 Replies
 
Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 04:10 pm
Smugness, as Setanta points out, is the word that comes to mind when I read the words of certain True Believers.

It's not enough, it seems, to have the freedom to worship in one's home and one's church. It also has to happen in the school, the city park, and the football field. And if other folks don't share the majority religion, it's too bad.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 04:14 pm
True Believers have a Holy Duty to Spread the Faith.

After all, the greenest grass has received the most manure.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 04:32 pm
I don't think anyone has laid into foxfyre here more than me, but I want to stick up for her a bit. She's a hell of a lot more willing than many to pick up some books and dig in and try to learn. She clearly has an affinity for her religious tradition and she makes the clear attempt to understand the history of a lot of ideas. And she has the energizer bunny about her in taking so many of us on.

I think she gets lots wrong, and I think her information sources are often far too parochial and self-reinforcing. But the other stuff is true, too.
0 Replies
 
Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 04:45 pm
Agreed re foxfyre. One of the nicer conservatives. No, the nicest. And I appreciate that. True, too about the self-reinforcement, but I guess I've been guilty of that, too.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 05:09 pm
D'artagnan wrote:
Smugness, as Setanta points out, is the word that comes to mind when I read the words of certain True Believers.

It's not enough, it seems, to have the freedom to worship in one's home and one's church. It also has to happen in the school, the city park, and the football field. And if other folks don't share the majority religion, it's too bad.


One particular minority religion did not accept the "you don't like it, too bad" mentality by the majoritarian bigots who refused to remove the Eagles' donated Ten Commandments monument from public grounds. The Summum church said fine, if the City of Ogden won't remove the Christian monument, then we want to donate a monument of our own to stand right next to the Ten Commandments. Summum offered to donate a monument depicting the Seven Principles of the Summum religion (the "Seven Principles Monument"). The City rejected the offer.

The Summuns sued on First Amendment free speech grounds for viewpoint discrimination. The Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled:

The Tenth Circuit wrote:
The Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment compels the City of Ogden to treat with equal dignity speech from divergent religious perspectives. On these facts, the City cannot display the Ten Commandments Monument while declining to display the Seven Principles Monument.


http://www.kscourts.org/ca10/cases/2002/07/01-4022.htm
0 Replies
 
Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 05:16 pm
This is the kind of solution that bothers me and proves that it's a bad idea to allow one religion to install its symbols in a public place. Even if another group is allowed to do the same, what about the third or fourth?

What about the Wiccans?
0 Replies
 
 

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