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DOES THE ACLU DO MORE GOOD OR MORE HARM?

 
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Nov, 2005 10:02 pm
BLatham, did you think I meant Mexico, I am talkng New Mexico.... I don't always capitalize countries and languages...
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Nov, 2005 10:11 pm
Well aren't I a fukking ninny.
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Nov, 2005 10:16 pm
That clarifies it. Undifferentiated ninnyness.

It just occurred to me I could be being too hopeful, as is my way occasionally, and you'd be off thinking I am moving to Mexico.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 12:19 am
old europe wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
I don't know when the seal was adopted but it has certainly been there since well before we moved to this area in the early 1980's. And it doesn't matter when the seal was adopted. The principle here is whether a village, town, city, county, state, or the nation can incorporate a broad sampling of its culture, history, and traditions into mottos, seals, artwork, etc. Considering the profound role that religion has played in all of that, to exclude it would be ludicrous.


It's not a historical seal. Somebody designed it, in 1973, apparently.

And, by the way, you have just changed your argumentation. In your LAST posts, you argued that it was a "historical county seal". NOW you're saying that "a village, town, city, county, state, or the nation" should be able to include religious symbols into "mottos, seals, artwork, etc.", given some loose historical pretext.

Just for the record.


I meant historical as in depicting history OE. I did not intend anything else, but I can see how you would misinterpret what I said. I didn't mean the seal itself was historical.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 12:24 am
kelticwizard wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
.....the population [of Las Cruces, NM] is now just under 80,000....

Which makes them quite capable of paying any legal fees if they lose the case. Groton, CT, has a population of half that and had a 2002 annual budget of over $95 million.

Las Cruces would have no trouble paying any legal fees if they lose the case-which fees are virtually certain to be considerably less than half a million.


Even if they can--I would imagine several hundred thousand in legal fees could be much better spent on schools, hospitals, roads, and parks--why should they have to? What logic is there in that a plaintiff can collect legal fees if they win, but win or lose the defendent is stuck with all legal fees?
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Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 06:50 am
ROBINSON et al. v. City of Edmond, (10th Cir. 1995):

The Tenth Circuit wrote:
At issue in this case is the official seal of the City of Edmond, Oklahoma. The circular seal contains four quadrants, of which one depicts a steam engine and oil derrick, one depicts the Old North Tower,(2) one depicts a covered wagon with the number 1889,(3) and the last quadrant depicts a Christian cross. . . .

Plaintiffs are non-Christians who live or work in Edmond. . . .

The First Amendment provides that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . . ." U.S. Const. amend. I. . . .

Plaintiffs concede that the main issue in this case is whether the City seal violates the second part of the Lemon test: whether its primary effect is to advance or inhibit religion, or, in endorsement test terms, whether it conveys or attempts to convey the message "that religion or a particular religious belief is favored or preferred." Allegheny, 492 U.S. at 593 (quoting Wallace v. Jaffree, 472 U.S. 38, 70 (1985) (O'Connor, J., concurring in the judgment)).(6)

[Footnote: (6) Standing is of course always necessary in an Establishment Clause case, and it is sometimes a difficult issue. No one in this case disputes plaintiffs' standing. Under our case law, plaintiffs clearly have standing. See Foremaster, 882 F.2d at 1490 ("Foremaster's allegations of direct, personal contact suffices as non-economic injury.").]

In applying this "effects" test, we must consider the "`particular physical setting'" of the challenged action. Foremaster, 882 F.2d at 1491 (quoting Allegheny, 492 U.S. at 597). Further, we evaluate the effect "by an objective standard, which looks only to the reaction of the average receiver of the government communication or average observer of the government action." Friedman, 781 F.2d at 781; see also, Foremaster, 882 F.2d at 1491 ("We inquire what an average observer would perceive when viewing the action of the City.").

. . . We first addressed this issue in Friedman, in which the Bernalillo County seal containing a Latin cross and the Spanish motto "CON ESTA VENCEMOS" was challenged on Establishment Clause grounds. . . .The district court found no Establishment Clause violation, concluding that the cross was simply an historical depiction of the importance of the Catholic Church in settling the southwest. On appeal, we reversed, holding that under either a clearly erroneous or a de novo standard of review,(7) the lower court erred.

. . . the Seventh Circuit held that seal of the city of Rolling Meadows and the seal, emblem and logo of the city of Zion both violated the Establishment Clause. . . . It also rejected Zion's argument that the seal, emblem and logo "merely commemorate the historical origins of the City." Harris, 927 F.2d at 1414, stating that "the City may not honor its history by retaining the blatantly sectarian seal, emblem, and logo." Id. at 1415.

. . .Defendants argue that the City seal is permissible because it symbolizes "the unique history and heritage of Edmond." Appellees' Br. at 6. We agree with the Seventh Circuit's rejection of the identical historical argument in Harris: "the City may not honor its history by retaining the blatantly sectarian seal . . . . These symbols transcend mere commemoration, and effectively endorse or promote the Christian faith." Harris, 927 F.2d at 1415. Such an appeal to history also failed to save the Bernalillo County seal in Friedman, and is indeed an argument which could always "trump" the Establishment Clause, because of the undeniable significance of religion and religious symbols in the history of many of our communities. We rejected arguments in Friedman that the county seal was permissible because it was not intended to advance religion, stating "f the challenged practice is likely to be interpreted as advancing
religion, it has an impermissible effect and violates the Constitution, regardless of whether it actually is intended to do so." Friedman, 781 F.2d at 781. . . .

As we observed in Friedman,

It is not decisive that defendants' heraldic and historical experts, and lay witnesses who are members of Christian sects, reacted less emotionally to the seal. It is to be expected that members of Christian sects would be more comfortable with a seal endorsing their beliefs than would individuals who adhere to different beliefs. The comfort of the majority is not the main concern of the Bill of Rights.

Id. at 782. The relevant inquiry is the objective one of what the "average observer" would perceive when viewing the seal. Foremaster, 882 F.2d at 1491. On that issue, we must conclude that the average observer would perceive the same sort of endorsement of Christianity which we held such an observer would feel in Friedman, and the Seventh Circuit held such an observer would feel in Harris and Kuhn, when evaluating governmental seals with similarly distinctive crosses.

Finally, defendants attempt to distinguish the Edmond seal from the Bernalillo County seal at issue in Friedman by arguing that the other secular elements of the seal effectively neutralize any religious message conveyed by the cross. While we acknowledge that each case must turn on its own facts, and that the particular context and setting of a particular governmental seal or logo is relevant to its fate when challenged under the Establishment Clause, we decline defendants' invitation to carefully and minutely distinguish the Edmond seal from the Bernalillo County seal based upon the particular dimensions of the crosses in the two seals or the secular or non-secular nature of other elements of the seal. As the Seventh Circuit stated in rejecting the identical argument in Kuhn,

The images on the seal are not just neutral snapshots of the community; they are charged with endorsement. . . . [R]egardless of its origins, the [city] seal does promote the selected images it depicts. To any observer, the [city] seal expresses the City's approval of those four pictures of City life -- its flora, its schools, its industry and commercial life, and its Christianity.

Kuhn, 927 F.2d at 1412. We too decline to hold that some visible and clearly defined religious images are permissible while other identically visible religious images are not. "Otherwise, we judges will be immersed in the minutiae of graphic design, our rulers and calipers in hand, scrutinizing each symbol for acceptable proportion, color and gloss. With no principled basis for distinguishing one seal from the next, our opinions will be fastidiously fact-bound and our precedent hopelessly abstract." Murray, 947 F.2d at 170 (Goldberg, J., dissenting).

In sum, we hold that under applicable Tenth Circuit and Supreme Court authority, the Edmond City seal violates the Establishment Clause. The district court erred in concluding otherwise. We therefore reverse and remand for further proceedings consistent with this opinion.

Because we reverse and remand this case, and find in favor of plaintiffs, plaintiffs are now the prevailing parties for purposes of the attorneys fees provisions of 42 U.S.C. ยง 1988. This casts in a new light the determination of any fee awards in this case. We accordingly remand the issue of attorneys fees and costs to the district court for a redetermination in light of this opinion.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 06:55 am
Thanks for your great work, debra.


However, when Fox has an opinion, and especially when this oponion is religion related, you can do what you want and like: she will never listen.
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cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 07:19 am
Yep, the U.S. was founded by Jews and athiests. Yep.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 07:21 am
Wrong thread, cj?
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cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 07:22 am
Hardly. I'd like to see the ACLU buried 6-feet under Las Cruces.
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cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 07:38 am
http://www.rightwingnews.com/graphics/aclu.jpg
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 07:49 am
ossobuco wrote:
That clarifies it. Undifferentiated ninnyness.

It just occurred to me I could be being too hopeful, as is my way occasionally, and you'd be off thinking I am moving to Mexico.


sweety

You can never be too hopeful. That's part of God's design. Being hopeful is like being horny...it's nothing but good news for yourself and for your friends.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 07:55 am
cjhsa wrote:
Yep, the U.S. was founded by Jews and athiests. Yep.


No jews in there, but a good proportion of deists, atheists and agnostics.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 08:24 am
Quote:
It is no exaggeration to say that on Sundays in Washington during the administrations of Thomas Jefferson (1801-1809) and of James Madison (1809-1817) the state became the church. Within a year of his inauguration, Jefferson began attending church services in the House of Representatives. Madison followed Jefferson's example, although unlike Jefferson, who rode on horseback to church in the Capitol, Madison came in a coach and four. Worship services in the House--a practice that continued until after the Civil War--were acceptable to Jefferson because they were nondiscriminatory and voluntary. Preachers of every Protestant denomination appeared. (Catholic priests began officiating in 1826.) As early as January 1806 a female evangelist, Dorothy Ripley, delivered a camp meeting-style exhortation in the House to Jefferson, Vice President Aaron Burr, and a "crowded audience." Throughout his administration Jefferson permitted church services in executive branch buildings. The Gospel was also preached in the Supreme Court chambers.

Jefferson's actions may seem surprising because his attitude toward the relation between religion and government is usually thought to have been embodied in his recommendation that there exist "a wall of separation between church and state." In that statement, Jefferson was apparently declaring his opposition, as Madison had done in introducing the Bill of Rights, to a "national" religion. In attending church services on public property, Jefferson and Madison consciously and deliberately were offering symbolic support to religion as a prop for republican government.
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06-2.html
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 08:45 am
Quote:
Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.
Thomas Jefferson
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 08:55 am
The Jefferson "Wall of Separation" quote was is a letter responding to one he received from the Danbury Baptists. It was specifically to assure them they had nothing to fear from their government. The term was never evoked again until Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black wrote it into an opinion some decades ago (I forget the specific date) and it has been used incorrectly by anti-religion types in recent decades. Obviously, Jefferson and the others had no problem with people in government being religious or religion being in government, and participated in worship services conducted in government chambers.

All the founders advocated free expression of religion anywhere. All were also conscious of how relgion has been and can be misued and were determined that no American would ever be required to believe anything dictated by the government and there would never be any reward or consequence imposed by government for what anybody believed in matters of faith, religion, and belief.

I do believe that so far as the founders were concerned, there would be no restrictions of religion desired by the people anywhere so long as participation was voluntary. They considered those in government to be people.
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kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 09:13 am
kelticwizard wrote:
Which makes them [Las Cruces] quite capable of paying any legal fees if they lose the case. Groton, CT, has a population of half that and had a 2002 annual budget of over $95 million.

Las Cruces would have no trouble paying any legal fees if they lose the case-which fees are virtually certain to be considerably less than half a million.


Foxfyre wrote:
Even if they can--I would imagine several hundred thousand in legal fees could be much better spent on schools, hospitals, roads, and parks--why should they have to? What logic is there in that a plaintiff can collect legal fees if they win, but win or lose the defendent is stuck with all legal fees?

A) Except that it isn't going to be several hundred thousand in most cases. You take the figure of a half million from the huge Ten Alabama Commandments case-a monument your side specifically built the monument to invite the lawsuit-then use that as the basis for all your financial figuring.

Hey Foxfyre-your side wanted that national case. You deliberately built the monument for the purpose of the case being brought. Then after the hoopla you started dies down, you turn around and play victim because of the size of the legal award. Then you repeat it and repeat and repeat it over and over again as if every case is going to be that high, or nearly that high.

There is no evidence that is the truth, but that won't deter you from using your own Roy Moore's carefully planned publicity stunt as the baseline for the award in these cases, will it?

Sneaky, sneaky sneaky.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 09:17 am
kelticwizard wrote:
kelticwizard wrote:
Which makes them [Las Cruces] quite capable of paying any legal fees if they lose the case. Groton, CT, has a population of half that and had a 2002 annual budget of over $95 million.

Las Cruces would have no trouble paying any legal fees if they lose the case-which fees are virtually certain to be considerably less than half a million.


[quote="Foxfyre']Even if they can--I would imagine several hundred thousand in legal fees could be much better spent on schools, hospitals, roads, and parks--why should they have to? What logic is there in that a plaintiff can collect legal fees if they win, but win or lose the defendent is stuck with all legal fees?

A) Except that it isn't going to be several hundred thousand in most cases. You take the figure of a half million from the huge Ten Alabama Commandments case-a monument your side specifically built the monument to invite the lawsuit-then use that as the basis for all your financial figuring.

Hey Foxfyre-your side wanted that national case. You deliberately built the monument for the purpose of the case being brought. Then after the hoopla you started dies down, you turn around and play victim because of the size of the legal award. Then you repeat it and repeat and repeat it over and over again as if every case is going to be that high, or nearly that high.

There is no evidence that is the truth, but that won't deter you from using your own Roy Moore's carefully planned publicity stunt as the baseline for the award in these cases, will it?

Sneaky, sneaky sneaky.[/quote]

I don't recall bringing up Judge Roy Moore at all in this (or any other discussion) until now and then only in response to your post. So who's being sneaky?
0 Replies
 
kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 09:23 am
Who's being sneaky? You are.

the half million dolar award to the ACLU was for the Alabama Ten Commandments case. You posted the article. That is the reference for the half million dollar award you keep harping about.

By the way, ijn the previous post, I accidentally edited it so it read "Ten Alabama Commandments". That was a typo. But now that I look at it, I like it. I think Moore's side missed an argument here. They could have the state pass each of the Ten Commandments in the state legislature, have the governor sign them, and then they could post them in any court house they choose in the state. Applicable to Alabama only, of course.

Wonder how they missed that legal strategy? Very Happy
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 09:24 am
Fox, you seem to be starting a lot of your sentences with an admission of ignorance (i.e. "I don't know when;" "I'm not a lawyer, but;" etc.). This does not add strength to your argument.



You seem to take issue with the idea of keeping the government secular. May I ask why?
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