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Libby indicted

 
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Nov, 2005 08:26 pm
Tico,
This thread is about Libby.
Take the topic of changing reasons here -
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=63401&highlight=
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Nov, 2005 08:27 pm
Okay, thanks for the link.
0 Replies
 
chichan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Nov, 2005 11:48 pm
Ticomaya wrote:


Clearly, freeing the Iraqis from Saddam is a natural by-product of removing Saddam's regime. But beyond that, Tony Blair certainly made the case, pre-war, that removing Saddam was the moral thing to do, for humanitarian reasons. And so did Bush.


30,000 to 100,000 Iraqis killed. Maybe half a million Iraqi children over the ten years leading up to the invasion. A moral thing to do, my ass!
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2005 12:33 am
chichan wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:


Clearly, freeing the Iraqis from Saddam is a natural by-product of removing Saddam's regime. But beyond that, Tony Blair certainly made the case, pre-war, that removing Saddam was the moral thing to do, for humanitarian reasons. And so did Bush.


30,000 to 100,000 Iraqis killed. Maybe half a million Iraqi children over the ten years leading up to the invasion. A moral thing to do, my ass!


Thus it follows that in the mind (or perhaps the ass) of chichan, the Iraqis would have been far better off suffering the tender mercies of Saddam.
0 Replies
 
Mortkat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2005 01:00 am
Freeing the Iraqis? The most intelligent policy wonk of the twentieth century said in his speech in 1998, Dec. 16th when he hurled missles at Baghdad--quote--


"So we will pursue a long term strategy to contain Iraq and its weapons of mass destruction and WORK TOWARDS THE DAY WHEN IRAQ HAS A GOVERNMENT WORTHY OF ITS PEOPLE"

It is clear that Clinton wished that Saddam be removed.

"The hard fact is that so long as Saddam remains in power, he threatens the well-being of his people, the peace of the region, the security of the world"

Those statements contain no ambiguity. They are straight forward.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2005 06:57 am
2001: Powell & Rice Declare Iraq Has No WMD and Is Not a Threat


Click here for the video
(Windows Media Player format, 1 meg)

This clip from John Pilger's documentary, Breaking the Silence, contains 2001 footage of Powell and Rice declaring that Iraq is not a threat.
Thanks for the video go to Information Clearinghouse and A-infos Radio Project



>>> During the run-up to the 2003 attack on Iraq, we were repeatedly told by US leaders that Iraq absolutely, positively had weapons of mass destruction [read more]. The country was an immediate threat not only to its neighbors but to the entire world. It had the capability of launching WMDs within 45 minutes.

In August 2002, Cheney insisted: "Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction."

In a March 2003 address to the nation, Bush said: "Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised."

In April 2003, Fleischer claimed: "But make no mistake--as I said earlier--we have high confidence that they have weapons of mass destruction. That is what this war was about and it is about."

In February 2003, Powell said: "We know that Saddam Hussein is determined to keep his weapons of mass destruction, is determined to make more."

But two years earlier, Powell said just the opposite. The occasion was a press conference on 24 February 2001 during Powell's visit to Cairo, Egypt. Answering a question about the US-led sanctions against Iraq, the Secretary of State said:

We had a good discussion, the Foreign Minister and I and the President and I, had a good discussion about the nature of the sanctions -- the fact that the sanctions exist -- not for the purpose of hurting the Iraqi people, but for the purpose of keeping in check Saddam Hussein's ambitions toward developing weapons of mass destruction. We should constantly be reviewing our policies, constantly be looking at those sanctions to make sure that they are directed toward that purpose. That purpose is every bit as important now as it was ten years ago when we began it. And frankly they have worked. He has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors. So in effect, our policies have strengthened the security of the neighbors of Iraq...

[See the page on the State Department Website with Powell's Cairo press conference. The Memory Hole's mirror of the page.]


Furthermore, on 15 May 2001, Powell testified before the Foreign Operations, Export Financing and Related Programs Subcommittee of the Senate Appropriations Committee. Several kind readers with access to Lexis-Nexis sent me the full transcript of the questions-and-answers portion of Powell's testimony. Here's the relevant extract:

Senator Bennett: Mr. Secretary, the U.N. sanctions on Iraq expire the beginning of June. We've had bombs dropped, we've had threats made, we've had all kinds of activity vis-a-vis Iraq in the previous administration. Now we're coming to the end. What's our level of concern about the progress of Saddam Hussein's chemical and biological weapons programs?

Secretary Powell: The sanctions, as they are called, have succeeded over the last 10 years, not in deterring him from moving in that direction, but from actually being able to move in that direction. The Iraqi regime militarily remains fairly weak. It doesn't have the capacity it had 10 or 12 years ago. It has been contained. And even though we have no doubt in our mind that the Iraqi regime is pursuing programs to develop weapons of mass destruction -- chemical, biological and nuclear -- I think the best intelligence estimates suggest that they have not been terribly successful. There's no question that they have some stockpiles of some of these sorts of weapons still under their control, but they have not been able to break out, they have not been able to come out with the capacity to deliver these kinds of systems or to actually have these kinds of systems that is much beyond where they were 10 years ago.

So containment, using this arms control sanctions regime, I think has been reasonably successful. We have not been able to get the inspectors back in, though, to verify that, and we have not been able to get the inspectors in to pull up anything that might be left there. So we have to continue to view this regime with the greatest suspicion, attribute to them the most negative motives, which is quite well-deserved with this particular regime, and roll the sanctions over, and roll them over in a way where the arms control sanctions really go after their intended targets -- weapons of mass destruction -- and not go after civilian goods or civilian commodities that we really shouldn't be going after, just let that go to the Iraqi people. That wasn't the purpose of the oil-for-food program. And by reconfiguring them in that way, I think we can gain support for this regime once again.

When we came into office on the 20th of January, the whole sanctions regime was collapsing in front of our eyes. Nations were bailing out on it. We lost the consensus for this kind of regime because the Iraqi regime had successfully painted us as the ones causing the suffering of the Iraqi people, when it was the regime that was causing the suffering. They had more than enough money; they just weren't spending it in the proper way. And we were getting the blame for it. So reconfiguring the sanctions, I think, helps us and continues to contain the Iraqi regime.


But Powell wasn't the only senior administration official telling the truth before the truth became highly inconvenient. On 29 July 2001, Condoleezza Rice appeared on CNN Late Edition With Wolf Blitzer (an anonymous reader sent me the full transcript from Lexis-Nexis). Guest host John King asked Rice about the fact that Iraq had recently fired on US planes enforcing the "no-fly zones" in Iraq. Rice craftily responds:

Well, the president has made very clear that he considers Saddam Hussein to be a threat to his neighbors, a threat to security in the region, in fact a threat to international security more broadly.

Notice that she makes it clear that Bush is the one who considers Hussein a threat. She doesn't say, "I consider..." or even, "We consider..."

Then King asks her about the sanctions against Iraq. She replies:

But in terms of Saddam Hussein being there, let's remember that his country is divided, in effect. He does not control the northern part of his country. We are able to keep arms from him. His military forces have not been rebuilt.

King doesn't think to ask Rice, if Hussein hasn't been getting arms and his forces weren't rebuilt after the 1991 Gulf War, why Bush considers him a threat.


There you have it. Four to seven months before 9/11--and just 15 to 18 months before the drive to attack Iraq seriously revved up--the Secretary of State and the National Security Advisor trumpeted that Iraq had a decimated military, no "significant capabilities" regarding WMD, and was so feeble that it couldn't even threaten the countries around it with conventional military power.
http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/powell-no-wmd.htm
0 Replies
 
bluesgirl
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2005 08:45 am
Mortkat wrote:
Freeing the Iraqis? The most intelligent policy wonk of the twentieth century said in his speech in 1998, Dec. 16th when he hurled missles at Baghdad--quote--


"So we will pursue a long term strategy to contain Iraq and its weapons of mass destruction and WORK TOWARDS THE DAY WHEN IRAQ HAS A GOVERNMENT WORTHY OF ITS PEOPLE"

It is clear that Clinton wished that Saddam be removed.

"The hard fact is that so long as Saddam remains in power, he threatens the well-being of his people, the peace of the region, the security of the world"

Those statements contain no ambiguity. They are straight forward.


Yes that Clinton effectively had Saddam contained and would continue that policy. Somehow I missed tha part where he calls for the invasion of Iraq. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
chichan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2005 06:44 pm
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
chichan wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:


Clearly, freeing the Iraqis from Saddam is a natural by-product of removing Saddam's regime. But beyond that, Tony Blair certainly made the case, pre-war, that removing Saddam was the moral thing to do, for humanitarian reasons. And so did Bush.


30,000 to 100,000 Iraqis killed. Maybe half a million Iraqi children over the ten years leading up to the invasion. A moral thing to do, my ass!


Thus it follows that in the mind (or perhaps the ass) of chichan, the Iraqis would have been far better off suffering the tender mercies of Saddam.


It's not up to you dickheads to right the world's wrongs with illegal and immoral wars, started on the basis of lies. Your hypocrisy is so transparent it's laughable.

Millions were murdered in Vietnam, untold thousands were sprayed with chemical weapons that have had rally nasty long term effects; civilians were napalmed; civilians and North Vietnam soldiers were tortured and killed indiscriminately.

I'm not so sure that Saddam has come even close in overall numbers. And remember, the USA supported Saddam at his worst. Don't even try to make yourself over as some kind of moral group. Your morals slip to whatever level expediency commands.

Then there's El Salvador, Nicaragua, ... .

Then there's the hypocrisy with Cuba.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2005 06:56 pm
chichan wrote:
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
chichan wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:


Clearly, freeing the Iraqis from Saddam is a natural by-product of removing Saddam's regime. But beyond that, Tony Blair certainly made the case, pre-war, that removing Saddam was the moral thing to do, for humanitarian reasons. And so did Bush.


30,000 to 100,000 Iraqis killed. Maybe half a million Iraqi children over the ten years leading up to the invasion. A moral thing to do, my ass!


Thus it follows that in the mind (or perhaps the ass) of chichan, the Iraqis would have been far better off suffering the tender mercies of Saddam.


It's not up to you dickheads to right the world's wrongs with illegal and immoral wars, started on the basis of lies. Your hypocrisy is so transparent it's laughable.

Millions were murdered in Vietnam, untold thousands were sprayed with chemical weapons that have had rally nasty long term effects; civilians were napalmed; civilians and North Vietnam soldiers were tortured and killed indiscriminately.

I'm not so sure that Saddam has come even close in overall numbers. And remember, the USA supported Saddam at his worst. Don't even try to make yourself over as some kind of moral group. Your morals slip to whatever level expediency commands.

Then there's El Salvador, Nicaragua, ... .

Then there's the hypocrisy with Cuba.


What is your argument?

The sins of the past preclude the possibility of good acts going forward?

The Iraqi people suffering under the brutal dictatorship of Saddam should have continued to suffer just because their only possible savior (the US) is precluded from engaging in any international action?

Life may sometime really suck (e.g. Iraq under Saddam), but it should always be free of international inteference. No one has the right (least of all the US) to attempt to interfere and right a wrong?

Who is it up to right the world's wrongs?
0 Replies
 
englishmajor
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2005 09:14 pm
Agree with you Chichan - good for you to have the cojones to disagree with the majority of, how do you so delicately put it - 'dickheads'.

Who is it up to right the world's wrongs, Finn? Seems the US has appointed itself that title.

Basing a war (many wars, if you want to start from the Spanish American war) on LIES is deplorable, despicable, disgusting.....i've run out of 'd' words. The US sucks and the world thinks so, too.
0 Replies
 
twinpeaksnikki2
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2005 09:26 pm
Quote:
"Well, I hate America, Louis. I hate this country. It's just big ideas, and stories, and people dying, people like you.

The white cracker who wrote the national anthem knew what he was doing. He set the word 'free' to a note so high nobody can reach it. That was deliberate. Nothing on earth sounds less like freedom to me."


Belize from Angels in America
0 Replies
 
englishmajor
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2005 09:31 pm
Laughing Laughing Laughing RIGHT ON!

If you listen to America's national anthem it is so full of violence, it's amazing.

No wonder it's such a violent country.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2005 09:45 pm
englishmajor wrote:
Laughing Laughing Laughing RIGHT ON!

If you listen to America's national anthem it is so full of violence, it's amazing.

No wonder it's such a violent country.


You have renounced your citizenship, right?
0 Replies
 
englishmajor
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2005 09:54 pm
With the utmost pleasure!!!!
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2005 09:55 pm
Good.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2005 09:56 pm
For some reason that makes me feel better.
0 Replies
 
englishmajor
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2005 10:34 pm
Yeah. I can imagine anyone not in love with imperialism and resultant warmongering, fear mongering would not be welcome in America, land of the free, home of the knave. I mean, brave.

Never knew what freedom meant, until I came to Canada. Hope you stay right there in Brave New World, Tico!
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Nov, 2005 12:10 am
twin_peaks_nikki wrote:
Quote:
"Well, I hate America, Louis. I hate this country. It's just big ideas, and stories, and people dying, people like you.

The white cracker who wrote the national anthem knew what he was doing. He set the word 'free' to a note so high nobody can reach it. That was deliberate. Nothing on earth sounds less like freedom to me."


Belize from Angels in America



Let's see, there is China, Burma, Cuba, Zimbabwe, Syria, Saudia Arabia, Egypt, Libya, North Korea, Sudan, Turkmenistan, Iran, Belarus, Uzbekistan, Pakistan, Vietnam, and Eritrea (to name but a few), but it is pretty clear that America leads them all in terms of oppression.
0 Replies
 
Mortkat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Nov, 2005 02:08 am
Chichan says Clinton did not call for the invasion of Iraq?

First of all, Clinton did invade Iraq.

quote:

Earlier today, I ordered America's Armed Forces to strike military and security targets in Iraq.

end of quote

Missles are quite invasive, I assure you.

Secondly. Clinton said( in his speech of Dec.16th 1998

quote:

"The hard fasct is that so long as Saddam remains in power,he threatens the well-being of his people, the peace of his region, the security of the world.

The best way to end that threat once and for all is with a new Iraqi government--a government ready to live in peace with its neighbors, a government that respects the rights of its people...The decision to use force is never cost-free. Whenever American forces are placed in harms; way, we risk the loss of life. And while our STRIKES ARE FOCUSED ON IRAQ'S MILITARY CAPABILITIES, there will be unintended Iraqi casualties."

Of course, when CLinton said that the best way to end that threat once and for all was with a new Iraqi government, he meant that the US would send an ambassador to Iraq to ask Saddam to PLEASE step down.

SURE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Furthermore, some forget that Clinton's strike at Iraq was pre-emptive and did not get advice and authority from the Congress.

President Bush went to the Congress on October 10th and 11th when the House and Senate OVERWHELMINGLY VOTED TO GRANT THE PRESIDENT FULL AUTORITY TO ATTACK IRAQ UNILATERALLY. THE VOTE IN THE HOUSE WAS 296 TO 133 AND THE VOTE IN THE SENATE WAS 77 TO 23.

The Congress of the US could have decided that an invasion of Iraq was not in the best interests of the USA.

They did not do so.
0 Replies
 
twinpeaksnikki2
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Nov, 2005 07:31 am
WTF does Clinton invading Iraq (he didn't BTW) have to do with Libby's indictment?

And I am going to point out that Congress voted to trust the President. Nothing more. What a sad commentary it is that, as most Americans now realize, that the president should not have been trusted.
0 Replies
 
 

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