1
   

Libby indicted

 
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Oct, 2005 05:10 pm
Oh, I know, farmerman. Just responding to this from parados:

Quote:
It appears the ony thing preventing Libby from being charged with divulging the information is the question of whether Libby knew that Plame was a covert agent.


It assumes that Plame was in fact a covert agent, but this hasn't definitely been established yet.

Personally, I think she was or else only very technically wasn't, as in the five years had recently expired and outing her would still have effects (I know that means nothing legally, just saying what I think at this point); that Cheney and Rove were the architects and very purposely set out to discredit/ get back at Wilson; that Bush didn't necessarily know anything of it as it was being concocted, but gave his tacit approval in the larger sense of telling these guys to do whatever was necessary to make the case for the Iraq war (no matter what the facts indicated); and that Libby wasn't the fall guy per se but was the one who did most of the legwork and the one who is most easily nailed out of the three of them.

As for what is happening next, not sure at all. Nimh posted an interesting quote, trying to figure out what it means. Something about Rove telling Fitz something at the last minute that gave Fitz pause. I'm wondering if some National Security card is being played here -- that for Fitz to prove a certain brand of wrongdoing, he has to provide highly sensitive information, which shouldn't see the light of day. (Either directly or in a connect-the-dots kind of way.) And that if he doesn't provide it, there isn't a way to prove wrongdoing.

<shrug>

Dunno about that last part. Eventually, all will become clear. Quite an interesting saga thus far.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Oct, 2005 05:23 pm
Brand X wrote:
I don't think there will be any more charges, if there were they would have been brought today IMO.

After two years....Fitz should have all he needed.

Why do you think he didn't close the case on Rove then, Brand? Why did he "not change his status", instead of just declaring he would not indict him?
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Oct, 2005 05:44 pm
nimh wrote:
Brand X wrote:
I don't think there will be any more charges, if there were they would have been brought today IMO.

After two years....Fitz should have all he needed.

Why do you think he didn't close the case on Rove then, Brand? Why did he "not change his status", instead of just declaring he would not indict him?


I think leaving it open ended is a strategy to maybe get someone else to come forward if they know anything to tell...if the investigation is put to bed it's easier for that assumed informant to stay quiet. This day has been building up so long it keeps people on the fence of deciding what they want to do, now that the first shoe has dropped it could motivate someone.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Oct, 2005 05:47 pm
Very plausible, Brand X.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Oct, 2005 06:19 pm
'Official A' stands out in indictment

By PETE YOST
ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER

WASHINGTON -- In a sign of the trouble lingering for the Bush administration, the indictment handed up Friday in the CIA leak probe refers to someone at the White House known as "Official A."

The unidentified official could become a courtroom witness against I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, who left his job as vice presidential aide shortly after his indictment on charges of obstruction of justice, making false statements and perjury.

Although other officials are mentioned but not named in the indictment, all were identified Friday afternoon during briefings at the Justice Department.

Except for "Official A."

The mysterious official is identified in the indictment only as "a senior official in the White House."

No mention is made of Karl Rove, the president's political adviser who remains under investigation by Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald.


It has been known that columnist Robert Novak spoke to Rove on July 9, 2003, saying he planned to report over the weekend that Valerie Plame, the wife of Bush administration critic Joseph Wilson, had worked for the CIA. Rove told the columnist he had heard similar information.

Friday's indictment says "Official A" is a "senior official in the White House who advised Libby on July 10 or 11 of 2003" about a chat with Novak about his upcoming column in which Plame would be identified as a CIA employee.

Late Friday, three people close to the investigation, each asking to remain unidentified because of grand jury secrecy, identified Rove as Official A.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Oct, 2005 10:09 pm
ehBeth wrote:
depressing news on a grey day


How so?

For me, it's encouraging that no matter how often these schmucks in DC will consider themselves, somehow, above the law, the Law keeps bringing them back in line.

The difference between America and the rest of the world isn't that we have political leaders who are above the temptations and corruption of power, but that we have a system of government and law that consistently keeps them in check.

No one was going to be indicted for blowing Plammes's diaphanous "cover." Stretching existing laws to deem her "outing" as a crime was beyond the most zealous of prosecutors, but Libby walked right into it by failing to tell the truth.

What was gained by Libby claiming that he heard of Plamme's CIA connections from reporters rather than Cheaney? It wasn't even remotely a crime for two individuals with top secret clearances to discuss the CIA connections of anyone, clandestine or otherwise.

There was nothing to cover up.

What motivated Libby to lie to the Grand Jury (assuming he did) is beyond me. Even if we assume the most sinister of conspiracies having been hatched by the White House, telling the truth about where he heard of Plamme's CIA connection would not have, perforce, revealed it.

Lying in DC has, apparently, become an accepted practice. It is a bright day in America when our legal system delivers a message to the powerful that lying is not a small sin.

If only this message was consistently delivered.

Libby has, apparently, had the personal misfortune of telling his lies to a skilled and dedicated professional prosecutor. Nothing suggests to me that this investigation and the idictment have partisan derivations.

It is nonsense of the intensely partisan variety to suggest, as Ma Pelosi does, that this scenario is somehow emblematic of a Republican "culture of corruption."

It may very well be evidence of a DC "culture of corruption," but to argue that the Democrats are distinct from such a culture is clearly absurd.

Power, not money, is the root of all evil, and the hunger for power is not restricted to any political party.

If Libby is, in fact, guilty of the charges, I hope they throw the book at him. Someone in a position of power such as he held should be doing all he can to not only follow the letter of the law, but to avoid the appearance of dismissing the confines of the law.

I do, however, have a couple of concerns about these developments:

We do need to be careful that we do not criminalize political dirty tricks. The game of politics in this country is major league hard ball, and as noxious as it may sometimes seem to be, it serves a purpose. We do not need to force gentility on politics through inconsistent legal prosecutions.
We can no more, in general, trust special prosecutors and the judiciary to be reliably above politics than we can legislators and members of the Executive branch.

In my opinion, Fitzgerald serves no meaningful public purpose by keeping Karl Rove on tenterhooks. Either indict the man, or put a close to the investigation. Whether you like Rove or not, he is an integral part of the Administration formed by the man we elected as president. Neutering him by threatening an open-ended investigation does no service to the public.
One is reminded of the pithy adage of "Sh*t or get off the pot!"

Recently, I was outraged to learn that there has endured a Special Prosecutors investigation into whether or not Hillary Clinton somehow violated the law as respects the (hardly) infamous "Travel-Gate" scandal. As much as I might like to see Hil behind bars, if a prosecutor cannot after 8 or 10 years and $20 million in costs, develop an accusation that offers the promise of putting someone's ass behind bars, then I say enough is enough. The concept of Special Prosecutors should not have encompassed the notion of providing for a neverending sweet gig for the lucky S.O.B.s that may have got the nod.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Oct, 2005 10:17 pm
"The difference between America and the rest of the world isn't that we have political leaders who are above the temptations and corruption of power, but that we have a system of government and law that consistently keeps them in check."

Goddess, what overweening arrogance! Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Oct, 2005 11:07 pm
dlowan wrote:
"The difference between America and the rest of the world isn't that we have political leaders who are above the temptations and corruption of power, but that we have a system of government and law that consistently keeps them in check."

Goddess, what overweening arrogance! Rolling Eyes


Goddess or Goodness? I confess that I am not sure of what higher power you might intend to invoke.

For discussion purposes, lets put aside the redundancy of a phrase like, "overweening arrogance," and totally ignore the supercilious (and, for the unwashed, snotty) eye rolling emoticon. Presumably, dlowan, you are able to inform us of the number and identity of nations that institutionally have an equivalent regard for checks and balances and the Rule of Law.

I love Australia, but it is is no America.

I love the UK, but it is no America.

I love the Netherlands, but it is no America.

I hate France, and it is no America.

Etc, etc, etc.

Which is the more chauvinistic position?

1) America is the lodestone and global model of a democratic society
2) My nation which, unabashedly, has imitated, but possibly trimmed, native American freedoms, and, therefore, is superior because it is (Aussie, Brit, Frog, Teutonic, Jappo, Brazilian ad nauseum) tailored to the realities of the rest of the world:

In Cuba there is an extremely autocratic regime, but it is A-OK and not arrogant because it provides its citizens with healthcare benefits and its foreign tourists with prostitutes.

Viva Fidel! (And more importantly, Viva Che!)
0 Replies
 
roverroad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Oct, 2005 11:23 pm
ehBeth wrote:
depressing news on a grey day


What, this was a GREAT day! I hope they nail every single one of them. Is anybody really surprised about all of this? Most people have known that this administration is corrupt for years. If anything it's been a grey five years.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Oct, 2005 11:37 pm
roverroad wrote:
ehBeth wrote:
depressing news on a grey day


What, this was a GREAT day! I hope they nail every single one of them. Is anybody really surprised about all of this? Most people have known that this administration is corrupt for years. If anything it's been a grey five years.


As opposed to the Grand Liberal Regime of the Clinton years?

Absolute power corrupts absolutely

Unless,of course, one trusts a Clinton...which I do not.

Bottom line: Get it done you mo-fckers!

Money begets money......Thank God!
0 Replies
 
roverroad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Oct, 2005 11:47 pm
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:

As opposed to the Grand Liberal Regime of the Clinton years?


I miss those years. We had it so good then. Hillary in 2008!
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Oct, 2005 11:58 pm
roverroad wrote:
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:

As opposed to the Grand Liberal Regime of the Clinton years?


I miss those years. We had it so good then. Hillary in 2008!


Whoa...that's a siurprise!

Hillary, if elected, will be a disaster.
0 Replies
 
kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Oct, 2005 12:09 am
Want to know the difference between Libby and Clinton?

I will spell it out for you. Although if you haven't grasped it by now, there probably is not much hope.

The reason Fitzgerald is admired for being nonpartisn, and Starr is rightfully regarded as a total disgrace, is that Fitzgerald asked questions that had to do with his charge.

He was suposed to investigate the Plame leak. His questions had to do with the Plame leak. If these guys can't come clean and get in trouble, tough.

Starr's charge was to investigate a real estate deal in which people lost money. He was unable to get anything on Clinton on this issue, which was the sole reason for the existence for his office.

Instead, he went far, far afield to find that Clinton told a fib-fib under oath about having amazingly consensual sex with a 24 year old woman.

Starr, who was not in any way hired to investigate fib-fibs about Presidential nookie on the side, decided to use the entire resources of the United States Government to get to the bottom, (no pun intended) of this issue. Which has nothing[, repeat nothing, about what he was hired to do.

For this reason, Starr's investigation was considered, after the partisan bickering quieted down, as such a disgrace that the House of Representatives did away with the special prosecutor law.

Certainly, outside of actual prosecution, there is no greater insult than that. To be hired to look into something, then find out that once they see the job you've done they overhaul their entire hiring procedure, is a huge sign that Starr's investigation was considered worthless.

And it was Republicans, no less, who realized the overhaul was necessary after the stench Starr left behind. Laughing
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Oct, 2005 12:37 am
kelticwizard wrote:
Want to know the difference between Libby and Clinton?


Didn't you forget the biggest difference? Clinton was the President of the United States when he lied under oath.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Oct, 2005 12:45 am
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
dlowan wrote:
"The difference between America and the rest of the world isn't that we have political leaders who are above the temptations and corruption of power, but that we have a system of government and law that consistently keeps them in check."

Goddess, what overweening arrogance! Rolling Eyes


Goddess or Goodness? I confess that I am not sure of what higher power you might intend to invoke.

For discussion purposes, lets put aside the redundancy of a phrase like, "overweening arrogance," and totally ignore the supercilious (and, for the unwashed, snotty) eye rolling emoticon. Presumably, dlowan, you are able to inform us of the number and identity of nations that institutionally have an equivalent regard for checks and balances and the Rule of Law.

I love Australia, but it is is no America.

I love the UK, but it is no America.

I love the Netherlands, but it is no America.

I hate France, and it is no America.

Etc, etc, etc.

Which is the more chauvinistic position?

1) America is the lodestone and global model of a democratic society
2) My nation which, unabashedly, has imitated, but possibly trimmed, native American freedoms, and, therefore, is superior because it is (Aussie, Brit, Frog, Teutonic, Jappo, Brazilian ad nauseum) tailored to the realities of the rest of the world:

In Cuba there is an extremely autocratic regime, but it is A-OK and not arrogant because it provides its citizens with healthcare benefits and its foreign tourists with prostitutes.

Lol! i wil be as supercilious as I like when you make such patherically ignorant, parochial and overwhelmingly ignorant statements.

So, you believe America to have checks in its system which do not exist Australia, the UK, Germany, Holland, Canada, Sweden, Switzerland, France, Belgium, Norway, Denmark etc etc.

You believe, just cos you want to, that your system is superior to that of anyone else?

Thank god we are not America, and goddess save the rest of the world from such ridiculous and blind hyper patriotism.

You made the statement, reserch it and present your paper for marking.
0 Replies
 
roverroad
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Oct, 2005 12:46 am
Ticomaya wrote:
kelticwizard wrote:
Want to know the difference between Libby and Clinton?


Didn't you forget the biggest difference? Clinton was the President of the United States when he lied under oath.


At least his lie didn't cost the lives of 2000 American soldiers and countless Iraqi citizens. But you don't care about that. Well, we know this investigation will expose Bush for what he really is. A slithering snake in the grass. Exciting times are ahead! Laughing
0 Replies
 
Mr Stillwater
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Oct, 2005 12:47 am
Please tell me his crime is the kind that you get sent to Gitmo for. And let 'Turdblossom' be his cellmate.........
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Oct, 2005 12:50 am
Oh and Finn, since you presume to judge every governmental system in the world and find it wanting in AMERICANNESS, kindly delineate and prove why America's system is best.

With impeccable research and double blind empirical data.
0 Replies
 
Mr Stillwater
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Oct, 2005 12:53 am
dlowan wrote:
Oh and Finn, since you presume to judge every governmental system in the world and find it wanting in AMERICANNESS, kindly delineate and prove why America's system is best.



Deb, remember; 'The business of America is BUSINESS!'. Ergo it must be the best government that money can buy!
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Oct, 2005 01:11 am
roverroad wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
kelticwizard wrote:
Want to know the difference between Libby and Clinton?


Didn't you forget the biggest difference? Clinton was the President of the United States when he lied under oath.


At least his lie didn't cost the lives of 2000 American soldiers and countless Iraqi citizens. But you don't care about that. Well, we know this investigation will expose Bush for what he really is. A slithering snake in the grass. Exciting times are ahead! Laughing


What a bizarre post.
0 Replies
 
 

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