"I COULD care less" or "I COULDN'T care less" Which is it?

cyphercat wrote:

And of course, like all good upstanding Americans, I despise hearing "I could care less."

Is it possible for a person who is ignorant of the findings of language science to be a "good upstanding American"? Of course it is!

A person's level of knowledge on something or other has nothing to do with their character.

was going to say something very piercing but cabernet saugvinon got in the way.

(Do I take it I have won the silly could = could not argument?)

If a structure is grammatical, and it is understood and in use then it is fully a part of English. It's that simple.

chichan wrote:

If a structure is grammatical, and it is understood and in use then it is fully a part of English. It's that simple.

And if its not understood? If its confusing, what then? I know language changes. There was an interesting article in the Independent recently about the explosive growth of "Blinglish". I dont recognise half the words they use, but thats ok, someone only has to compile a dictionary...actually that was the reason for the article.

There is always some language that is confusing to some but often that is because they are unfamiliar with the context. As they go on encountering a usage in full contextual situations, their brains naturally adapt.

That's how we come to understand and use idioms whose individual word meanings have little or no connection to their stand alone meanings.

But I fail to see how a statement and the direct negation of the same statement can ever be used without causing misunderstanding.

The number of examples I've shown prove that false. Speakers of some other languages are completely thrown by the English propensity to say, "I don't think I know".

It sounds illogical to them and if you were exposed to those people using the logic of their language for English, you'd note a foreign flavor. Language creates its own logic and that 'logic' varies from language to language and on a smaller scale, from dialect to dialect.


Are you saying the phrase I could care less (= could not care less) will become fully part of English, i.e. correct?

It already is 100% correct and 100% grammatical. Whether it becomes fully a part of BrE or AuE is not at all relevant, as I noted above.
There are aspects of BrE and AuE that will never become part of AmE or CdE.


If so what happens to the outmoded form "I couldn't care less"? Is that incorrect? Or are we supposed to cotton on to the the implied irony, thereby turning it into "I do indeed care a great deal"?

There's no reason that one form would necessarily become 'outmoded'. English is replete with words and phrases that have the same meaning but that are largely restricted to different registers.

English even has a number of words, the same word, that have opposite meanings, 'moot', for example. It causes us no confusion, no problems because language always has context, dialect and register and we're cognizant of those times that the envelope is pushed on any.

This phrase pushes your dialectal button, and maybe, to some degree, your register button. But that doesn't affect the millions upon millions of times it's used by others in their own language setting.

Kicky, I share your peeve. People often do not hear what they are saying. To say "I could care less" when one means to say the opposite is very annoying, especially since propriety does not permit you to correct them (i.e., to bring to their attention what they have actually said).

Yes, Chichan. To say "I could care less" indicates that you DO care some; to say "I could NOT care less" indicates that there is no care in you to reduce--that you could not be more indifferent.

You haven't answered my question, JL or you partially did. McTag did but he was mistaken.

The opposite of "I could care less" is "I could care some". And the opposite of "I couldn't care less" is "I couldn't care more".

You were close when you noted that "<I could care less> indicates that you DO care some". These items are scalar items.



I understand your point that USAGE changes the language, but when a new usage states EXPLICITLY (e.g., I COULD care less) the opposite of what it means IMPLICITLY (e.g., I could NOT care less), we are in trouble. Don't you think there should be some limits to the range of change we accept?

I hope you can now see that the idea that <I could care less> and <I couldn't care less> are opposites is false. The noted effect upon the person seeking commiseration is not well served by someone who cares a little.

With added sarcasm, the phrase could well be worse than the complete dismissal found in <I couldn't care less>. But no matter about the level of sarcasm, the idiom has become set in the language.

No one, that's no native speaker, upon hearing, "I could care less", is overwhelmed by the speaker's compassion.

As to what 'we' should accept, the choice isn't ours to make, JL. All the whining of all the prescriptivists over the centuries have made no difference. Language change is as inevitable as the tides and as unstoppable.

[quote]Most of my fellow linguists, in fact, would say that it is absurd even to talk about a language changing for the better or the worse. When you have the historical picture before you, and can see how Indo-European gradually slipped into Germanic, Germanic into Anglo-Saxon, and Anglo-Saxon into the English of Chaucer, then Shakespeare, and then Henry James, the process of linguistic change seems as ineluctable and impersonal as continental drift.

From this Olympian point of view, not even the Norman invasion had much of an effect on the structure of the language, and all the tirades of all the grammarians since the Renaissance sound like the prattlings of landscape gardeners who hope by frantic efforts to keep Alaska from bumping into Asia.

The Decline of Grammar - Nunberg

http://www.pbs.org/speak/speech/correct/decline/

let your yes be yes and your no be no.

Chichan you're floundering. You are really struggling to make any sense at all. You're doing a good job in defending the indefensible, but its time now to do the honourable thing and admit defeat. To say I could care less and mean I could not care less is just dumb. If you are happy with that, ok, you can express yourself as you like but dont expect everyone to take you seriously.

Words mean things or we wouldnt use them. Not all words are autoantonyms. Different words mean different things, thats why we dont just grunt, though I suspect some academics would like us to return to that early state of bliss. Meaning is not determined by context alone. Try explaining that to the judge.

You have not produce a number of examples where a statement and its direct negation mean the same thing. Moreover logic is something that transcends language. Its common to all languages. Logic is logic, it does not vary between languages, just as you dont get different answers according to the mathematical language you use. (Though I would agree accountants constantly research into this).

You say I could care less is the same as I could not care less. In fact you say

"It already is 100% correct and 100% grammatical. Whether it becomes fully a part of BrE or AuE is not at all relevant, as I noted above.
There are aspects of BrE and AuE that will never become part of AmE or CdE."


Which seems to me that you are quite happy for something you style as AmE, (I assume that to be American English), to descend into gibberish. Well sorry but I'm beginning not to care either.

And what is this about going "to hospital?" You go to THE hospital. Dang English that can't speak thier own language.

I always say "I couldn't care less," because...well, because that makes sense, dammit!

It pisses me off when people say "I could care less."
What, is that supposed to be sarcastic? Which do you say?