Re: Under God With Liberty
Questioner wrote:RexRed wrote:
You don't have to buy it all you have to do is read it...
Dual rulership
Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
2Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god [theos] of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Excellent sources. A few notes:
1) Both of these examples are figurative. Allow me to explain: The scripture from Ephesians was one of my favorites when I subscribed to christianity myself. Very moving. It is, however, almost entirely symbolic. Putting on the armor of God, fighting against the principalities, rulers and powers. At the time this letter was written this imagery was extremley powerful, especially to the church in Ephesus.
In short, they are used as little more than a pep-talk.
2) The corinthians scripture is compelling, until you take into account the fact that Paul tends to have a flair for the dramatic.
The god of the world. Satan has domion over the world. Ok, that's been exampled several times. To suggest, however, that satan was on any level close to god in the "rulership" department is an error.
Allow me to point out why.
Firstly, god cannot tolerate sin in any form. Thus did he turn his back to Jesus on the cross. Why then, would he accept co-rulership with the devil, who's very nature is evil?
Secondly, as pointed out above in response to your statement that I should look in Job, god has the final word. Make no mistakes about those verses. God is in charge, completely and with all authority. He "allows" the devil to tempt his creations (which makes absolutely no sense to me, and is one of the reasons I find christianity to be a bit ridiculous), but does not allow him to run about unchecked, (else why would prayers be answered, how would "god's will" come into play yadda yadda etc.)
I see that so much of your Biblical knowledge is error upon error.
I will agree that the section in Ephesians is an allegory but the whole purpose of the allegory is to explain an invisible realm of the spirit in the best imagery that fits. You seem to be accusing Paul of grandstanding I do not subscribe to that logic...
You base some of your logic on the scripture of "father why has thou forsaken me". You use this to then say that God could not stand sin so he abandoned his son. Well the word "forsaken" in the Bible is also in several other places translated "left". So it could read father why has thou "left" me.
In one place in the Bible it says that a certain person was selling sheep and they sold a certain number and stated that he had a certain amount of sheep "left" in the back pasture. This is the same word forsaken... So in that case the sheep were "spared". Just as I have heard theologians translate the verse "Father for this purpose was I spared"... If your son was dying would you leave him especially if he was innocent? I think that this translation and the perpetuation that God left his son to die alone on the cross is pure nonsense. It is this kind of sloppy biblical research that has led the world into years of darkness concerning the nature of the true God... God is in charge but God does not possess people. The devil possesses people but God allows people to come to him by their own free will. God allows the devil to tempt because he does not "possess" us...
In the OT spirit is "upon" the people in varying degrees. Some prophets and priests had a "double" portion. Well it is this spirit that allowed them to "somewhat" perceive God. Without spirit we would be in total "darkness". And this would be where the rulers of darkness would become "God". It was Job who allowed the devil to ruin his life and it was Job who eventually recognized the problem and allowed God to bless him. It was not God who allowed the devil to attack Job but it was Job who left himself open to this attack. The devil could not kill Job because Job's sins were not serious enough. As long as light is in the world in the form of spirit the devil cannot run "unchecked".
The devil told Jesus he would offer him the "kingdoms" of the world if he would but bow down and worship him. Why would the devil promise something he did not have control of? There are so many examples like when Jesus went into hell that there was a "war" and Jesus "triumphed", "took of the spoils" and "made a show of them"... Armies have kings that rule them and there is an order to chaos and confusion. Even the devil needs to keep "order" in his battalions. The devil "attacks" the Christian with subtlety and there is a chain of command going all the way from the buck privates to the five star generals. Jesus was accused of casting out devils with the "prince" of the devils. I can go on and on and on... These are what are called checks and balances in the word. God put them there in the word so there would be no doubt. Like the sound of the trumpets which call the armies and the trump of God.
Re 19:19 - Show Context
And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Comment:
You are just plain wrong. This has been the problem with "religion" for so long. Again I say it is sloppy biblical research and error upon error. The reason why prayers are answered is not because God pulls some strings but because people believe. The reason why the devil has boundaries is because there is and has been light in the world. It is a simple principle, light expels darkness. Why was there even a reason for Christ if there was no problem with the "image" of God in the OT? Now the NT says we have spirit "within" (not upon) and we all (who have the spirit) have the same "measure" and we are "filled" to overflowing. So are you saying there is no "benefit" to this when it comes to perceiving the true God. What difference doesn't it make? Are you saying God changed? No, it was the "eyes of our understanding" that "changed".
Jesus talks about the word being planted on rocky ground and growing poorly and it being planted in good soil and flourishing. He talks about the devil trying to "steal" the word and separating the wheat from the tares. The Bible talks about walking by the spirit and not by the flesh. What what kind of picture of God will you have if your spirit is only partially full and only "upon" you and not within (Christ-in Christian) you. The plain and very simple answer? You will get and OT God... You will get a jealous God... You will get a God that out of hatred of sin floods the world... You will get a God that stones people for the least provocation. You will get a God of "kings" and "sacrifice" rigid weak law and not a God of liberty and "grace". You will get a God that divides people and separates them into male, female, gay, straight, bond, free, Jew and gentile rather than a God of "unity". You will get a God more in the image of man and less in the image of Christ.
Again there are checks and balances so that the word cannot be broken. The OT God's barbarity is a product of human spiritual depravity and not God's true nature. Christ revealed the heart of the one true God and opened the eyes of the world to the light of God's pure love for us.
