This thread is just too far in la la land for me.
Frank you think by calling God's Word a fairy tale it makes it so. Just like liberals that think if God is removed from the pledge that people will suddenly no longer believe. You think because you can turn off your faith like a light swithch that the devil does not lurk in the darkness and prey on "foolish" people? You should realize that Walt Disney was a christain and the wicked witch with the "apple" was only a "mirror" image of the same "biblical" story that has outsold every book ever written and been out read by very book ever read. Yet you are going to stand and tell all of these people who believe now and have gone before us that they are wrong? You are not even one percent of one percent... Wake up... Your blindness is the only never never land I see here.
RexRed wrote:Debra_Law wrote:RexRed wrote:. . . Just like liberals that think if God is removed from the pledge that people will suddenly no longer believe. . . .
No one--not even the liberals--are trying to take away your right to believe what you want in accordance with your own conscience. However, you are not respecting the right of others who don't share your beliefs. The official pledge of allegiance to OUR flag and OUR country is dictated by law. The objection stems from YOU imposing YOUR religious beliefs on others through the operation of our laws. That type of imposition is inimical to liberty which makes the pledge a hypocritical FARCE. Where is the liberty and justice for all?
Liberty in itself IS a law... A human LAW...
James 1:25
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
James 2:12
So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Comment: A law like "gravity" that is granted by the "creator" God and not by a government... If the government was to make a law that gravity was no longer legal would we still stick to the earth? Would apples still fall to the ground? You can't turn the world upside down... This is why liberty is ABOVE GOVERNMENT. And we are held by greater "laws" that are endowed by the "creator"... Liberty is one of them and liberty is "under" God not government... Now if you want to argue with gravity go ahead...
...Also, the pledge is not "dictated by law"... you can abstain from the pledge it is optional in school... It is just the majority opts to pledge allegiance to liberty as being "under God"... Yet this pledge is optional, this option is part of "the liberty". If it was under government, then it would be "dictated" by LAW under "government" not God...
Yabba dabba doo!
Jamesw84 wrote:blueveinedthrobber wrote:Grow up kids. Guess what, the entire WORLD is under God and you guys display a lot of nerve running around acting like we're special or the only ones or something.
This message is so funny, it says the entire world is under god. If this is the case then why does God make certain individuals suffer from psychological trauma so much than other people? IF this god of yours is so "just"-a term that I have heard about in church so much, then why do all these unfair things happen for? Does god favour particular people and punish others from a very very young age?
The primary reason for me rejecting god is due to how little blessing he has bestowed on my life so far, how little protection he has given me over the course of my whole life this far, and yet he expects me to beg on my knees for mercy and repentance. The worst thing that can happen to me now is death, and im not scared of it. So give me a reason why u say god is in control of this world, its more like he cant control this world at all, so he has sent this fictious character of Jesus down to scare us.
Newbies are so annoying with their off-topic rants and proclamations of doctrine.
RexRed wrote:Debra_Law wrote:RexRed wrote:. . . Just like liberals that think if God is removed from the pledge that people will suddenly no longer believe. . . .
No one--not even the liberals--are trying to take away your right to believe what you want in accordance with your own conscience. However, you are not respecting the right of others who don't share your beliefs. The official pledge of allegiance to OUR flag and OUR country is dictated by law. The objection stems from YOU imposing YOUR religious beliefs on others through the operation of our laws. That type of imposition is inimical to liberty which makes the pledge a hypocritical FARCE. Where is the liberty and justice for all?
Liberty in itself IS a law... A human LAW...
No. Liberty is an inalenable right. On the other hand, the pledge of allegiance is the product of man-made law.
So, why are you using man-made law to impose your religious beliefs on others in violation of their liberty interests?
Quote:Comment: A law like "gravity" that is granted by the "creator" God and not by a government... If the government was to make a law that gravity was no longer legal would we still stick to the earth? Would apples still fall to the ground? You can't turn the world upside down... This is why liberty is ABOVE GOVERNMENT and we are held by greater "laws" that are endowed by the "creator"... Liberty is one of them and liberty is "under" God not government... Now if you want to argue with gravity go ahead...
I don't understand. You just said that liberty is a human law. Now you're saying it was created by God.
Okay then: Why are you using the power of the government to make laws that impose your beliefs on others and deprive others of their God-given right to liberty (inclluding free will to believe or not to believe)?
That appears to be an unChristian thing to do.
Quote:...Also, the pledge is not "dictated by law"... you can abstain from the pledge it is optional in school... It is just the majority opts to pledge allegiance to liberty as being "under God"... Yet this pledge is optional, this option is part of "the liberty". If it was under government, then it would be "dictated" by LAW under "government" not God...
Haven't you been listening? The words of pledge are dictated by law. Why must children abstain from pledging allegiance to our flag and our nation? Aren't non-believers entitled to pledge their devotion and loyalty to their country without having to pledge allegiance to your God at the same time? If your God is truly the God of Liberty as you claim, then God would never impose himself on the people. He would allow them to use their free will to choose to believe or not believe.
Why don't you respect God's teachings, according to you, and stop imposing your religious beliefs on others through our national pledge?
RexRed wrote:
I believe in a dual rulership but I do not believe both Gods are "true" thus one is a false God and one is a true God. Yet without spiritual "fullness" we can and do err in our perceptions. Yes, you have aptly quoted scriptures but I have related to a wealth more of them. You are quoting from a "religious" standpoint. You are quoting vague isolated scriptures and I am quoting very plain scriptures and linking them. Then you infer that the scriptures I use are figures of speech?
Quoting from a "religious" standpoint? We're discussing a religious topic, what other standpoint would you have me use? If I adopt my typical non-religious stance then my argument simply becomes "It's BS." and we have no debate.
I have not only quoted relevant scripture, but have also provided the context to you in which they were written. They are neither isolated nor vague.
There is a difference between a religious standpoint and a biblical standpoint... If this was not true there would not be so much division among Christians. There would not be conservative Christians and radical Christians but all would be in harmony and unity with one another. The reason for this is because people take the word out of context to fit their own dogma. This deviation from the word is "religion"...
When one's faith is based solely on the written word then it is truth not religion. I will show you that you have done this by you own words in this post... What would you get if you were to reject religion and base your ideas on only the written word? You would be more similar to what I have been saying. If it were not for people who turned away from traditional religion to a more "God's Word" based belief there would not even be a protestant faith... and men like Martin Luther would never have existed
Quote:They are very plain figures where you take every word of the OT as literally from the true God. So are you saying we should be stoning people to death for wearing clothing that is too colorful (leviticus) and we should be living by such great law that no one shall ever enter into the holy of holies?
Thank you for attempting to put words in my mouth. I never said any of the above. This is pure assumption on your part.
You did say that the word "rulers" in the book of Ephesians was figurative... Then you say rulers are varied... You are only watering down words to blur clear lines... To me rulers are rulers and not the strait edges kind that guide a line... You are trying to morph the Bible to fit your religion and not morph religion to fit the Bible.
Quote:You seem to only want to prove that God is such a barbarian so you can excuse yourself from faith...
Not so. I only want to debate your blatant statements about an unverified "opinion" you espoused earlier.
I have verified my "opinion" with the scriptures not by what others have taught but by what I have learned in turning from religion and expressly searching ONLY the Bible for the "truth". You seem to hold all of this mumbo jumbo taught by the "out in the world" Christian church as gospel... Well, look again my friend... All you need to do is read the Bible with this understanding and it will verify what I am saying. I know it seems foreign but that is because you have so many preconceived ideas...
Quote:Do you not even see your own folly? Do you not see that in rescuing God from the OT that you yourself become justified in the true GOD'S image? We are not to just confess ourselves from sin because the Bible says we are all DEAD in sins. What works can a DEAD person do? But we are to confess the savior from sin... It is in this that we become holy not by our own self righteous works.
This would be an example of the "vagueness" you spoke of earlier. When in doubt, preach. It's the christian way.
It is vague because it is so un-traveled that your mind resists it. Yet if you only would give it the slightest bit of credence you could help me unravel it's validity. Just consider it for a moment... and you may find you have a reason to love God again... It is not our Gods mercy toward us but our mercy towards God that is important... By forgiving others (God included) we are forgiven of our debts, remember. Can you not look and for one moment glimpse at the truth without it frightening your "religious" constructs into disarray?
Quote:It is our grace toward God that brings our own grace. This is how we receive our heavenly gift. We are not to confess ourselves "above" God with self pride but "under" a "true" God and "seek" the righteousness of that God with "meekness" and humility of spirit/mind/heart. When God becomes "righteous" in our understanding and true then we stand in the image of this same righteousness and we stand on truth not "religion".
Still preaching. Seemingly without purpose.
I have a purpose.. to love you into seeing there IS an answer beyond your own failure to see it... I am not preaching but I am exercising the liberty that I have as an individual who seeks truth over philosophy/religion...
Quote:We need to raise God out of our "own" legalistic "image" of LAW and in "liberty" find grace and mercy toward God's as a more perfect image. In doing so we are "clothed" with this same image of grace, from glory to glory. As we confess "our savior" from sin and we also confess our God from sin we ourselves are rescued from sin. It take spiritual insight and faith/trust in the "true" God to find truth.
Good for you. To those of us that aren't hallucinated enough to believe we've found the "true" God that sounds like a load of hogwash.
I do not have to "hallucinate" the written word I only have to read it without interjecting religion into every thing I read to hold together poor biblical research... The Bible affirms what I have said but I have quoted many scriptures that have verified my position... You keep bringing up religion as the source of your "beliefs" don't you see that religion and the written word are not always the same thing. You need to break out of your straight jacket and start thinking for yourself based on what is written in the Bible and not what is taught by religion. Your religion is one big bibliography of philosophers and no actual scriptures... You quote scriptures and they are isolated but you do not have them linked into a whole...
This in not an insult to you it is just an observation that you are blindly following the crowd. Even Frank thinks he knows the "God of the Bible" so he has followed the crowd right off a cliff... (he is slowly starting to realize I think though...) It is no wonder that he finds the God of the Bible laughable. I would laugh too if I saw God that way... I did once turn my back on God as a teen when I thought that way... They were the worst years of my life and nearly stole my life from me... All because I thought God was based on the religion I was taught instead of the truth of the Bible... It was not until I reexamined this religion that I found it based on "philosophy/religion" and not the actual written word...
Quote:I see the God of the old testament as being the one that after calamity strikes God is always there saving people. Not conveniently as Frank would have us believe God is always present when someone is being murdered... THE TRUE God is there to SAVE LIVES... As an example.. I don't believe that the true God actually caused "the flood" but I believe God saved Noah so as to save the human race from extinction...
So God, in all his love and wisdom and power, was only able to save 1 family and a bunch of animals from a giant flood he predicted way in advance. Seems a bit impotent for the creator of the universe.
It was not because God did not try but because of unbelief (again God does not possess) caused by a majority of religious people who thought otherwise... That should make you think of your own salvation today... You are still laughing at "Noah"...
Quote:Yes, the Bible is very clear and says I (God) will cause it to rain forty... But what was God's motive? Because he hated sin? Is God that weak? One might think well that is a motive, but humans can very easily kill themselves with their own sin it does not take a flood... Humans have enough sin inside to flood the world many times over... The devil had the greatest motive for living on a human-less earth... God told the devil and Adam and Eve way back in Eden that a man would come (someday) and the devil would bruise his heel and this "man" would bruise the serpents HEAD... Well bruises to the head are usually FATAL...
So you're saying then that God's bible, the bible that is rumored to be "God-Inspired" and "God's Word" is erroneous?
Yes, but, only in places in the OT... and it takes the lens of the "new birth" and the revelation of the New Testament to reveal where and when the OT departs from the truth... There is enough in the NT to guide us to the way of holiness of the one true God... Yet the OT is again, mixed... This is why Frank is justified in hating God but this is also why Frank is unaware (agnostic) of he true God... Frank You can KNOW God... You just have to look closer.
Quote:Thus the devil had a greater motive for destroying the human race... Also (here come the checks and balances again) When the flood occurred it says the portals of heavens opened up and it rained... If the devil was as a God he must have had the power (dominion over the earth) to open the portals of heaven and destroy the earth's inhabitants. But just as in Job, the devil was not able to destroy ALL people. Noah and his family were spared their lives.
Your argument is flimsy as it is based on an assumption that most in christiandom would utterly disagree with.
There you go with taking "most in Christendom" OVER "most of the written word"... In that one statement you have utterly proven my point... You follow religion and not The Word... Look at the division in religion... I rest my case... The only way to KNOW is to reject religion and rely solely upon the Bible for truth. If religion had done this there would be unity in the Church today...
Quote:The only other time the the "portals of heaven" are mentioned is AFTER the Gospels when it says "God" shall open the portals of heaven and pour you out a "blessing"... So this shows that the true God now holds the "power" of these "portals" and the true Gods use of them is as a "blessing" not death... This only put further in doubt the nature of the God of the OT as being a mixture of "two" Gods seen as one by much of the ailing spiritual prophets/priests/kings of the OT... This also shows the works of Christ as taking back these powers from the devil. I believe that this logic follows through in most all of the calamities that happened in the OT including the crucifixion of Christ... I suppose God also crucified his own son...
I believe your logic to be presumptuous, and based entirely upon assumption. I believe this because what you are espousing above goes against every religious teaching I've ever heard. I'd be willing to bet that I could pull enough scriptures to put forth an argument that Jesus was a raging lunatic, but that, like what you've written above, would be pure assumption on my part.
They are not based on assumption but I have based them upon the scripture. The very flaw in your "logic" is you are basing it upon "religious teaching". So you are ignoring the wealth of scriptural sources for religious teaching. You are holding religious teaching and tradition "above" the written word.... This is what the Vatican did to Martin Luther... I am not comparing myself to Luther but I am certainly a parallel to his approach.
I am saying the contrary to Jesus being a lunatic, (that is simply a wild speculative presumption on your part). We see a shift in the teachings of Jesus as the Bible says the word became flesh.. (the reference to casting stones) In other words, "the Law" became living and alive... This is even more so true as after the death and resurrection of Christ that we now each have Christ in us. So the law is now living as liberty within the sons and daughters of liberty and not law without... You are desperate enough to mention "religion" as a source of divining the truth when you seem to neglect the principle that the word is our ONLY guide to truth. I am not speculating I have the word to back up my so called "speculation" yet all you have is religion which is a divided house.
Quote:When will you learn?
THERE'S that good old Christian arrogance that I've been missing these past 2 years. Thanks for reminding me of the reason I left the church.
