Under God With Liberty

Debra_Law wrote:

RexRed wrote:

Debra_Law wrote:

RexRed wrote:

. . . Just like liberals that think if God is removed from the pledge that people will suddenly no longer believe. . . .

No one--not even the liberals--are trying to take away your right to believe what you want in accordance with your own conscience. However, you are not respecting the right of others who don't share your beliefs. The official pledge of allegiance to OUR flag and OUR country is dictated by law. The objection stems from YOU imposing YOUR religious beliefs on others through the operation of our laws. That type of imposition is inimical to liberty which makes the pledge a hypocritical FARCE. Where is the liberty and justice for all?

Liberty in itself IS a law... A human LAW...

No. Liberty is an inalenable right. On the other hand, the pledge of allegiance is the product of man-made law.

So, why are you using man-made law to impose your religious beliefs on others in violation of their liberty interests?

Quote:

Comment: A law like "gravity" that is granted by the "creator" God and not by a government... If the government was to make a law that gravity was no longer legal would we still stick to the earth? Would apples still fall to the ground? You can't turn the world upside down... This is why liberty is ABOVE GOVERNMENT and we are held by greater "laws" that are endowed by the "creator"... Liberty is one of them and liberty is "under" God not government... Now if you want to argue with gravity go ahead...

I don't understand. You just said that liberty is a human law. Now you're saying it was created by God.

Okay then: Why are you using the power of the government to make laws that impose your beliefs on others and deprive others of their God-given right to liberty (inclluding free will to believe or not to believe)?

That appears to be an unChristian thing to do.

Quote:

...Also, the pledge is not "dictated by law"... you can abstain from the pledge it is optional in school... It is just the majority opts to pledge allegiance to liberty as being "under God"... Yet this pledge is optional, this option is part of "the liberty". If it was under government, then it would be "dictated" by LAW under "government" not God...

Haven't you been listening? The words of pledge are dictated by law. Why must children abstain from pledging allegiance to our flag and our nation? Aren't non-believers entitled to pledge their devotion and loyalty to their country without having to pledge allegiance to your God at the same time? If your God is truly the God of Liberty as you claim, then God would never impose himself on the people. He would allow them to use their free will to choose to believe or not believe.

Why don't you respect God's teachings, according to you, and stop imposing your religious beliefs on others through our national pledge?

You are trying to win this battle with Rex by being logical and making sense.

You are to be applauded for that...but I must tell you that working that way with Rex has never worked before.

Frank, God does not claim to be logical. God is not really logical... This is why God says in the Bible that mans wisdom is his foolishness. So God does not ascribe to "man's/womans" wisdom... This is why God's wisdom seems foolish. It is confound the high and mighty and to endear the meek and humble... It is to separate the prideful from the merciful.

My take on the meaning of the word "unalienable" is that we are all (humans) "created" equal and NONE are "alien" to the whole when it comes to basic rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness...

RexRed wrote:

Debra_Law wrote:

RexRed wrote:

. . . Just like liberals that think if God is removed from the pledge that people will suddenly no longer believe. . . .

No one--not even the liberals--are trying to take away your right to believe what you want in accordance with your own conscience. However, you are not respecting the right of others who don't share your beliefs. The official pledge of allegiance to OUR flag and OUR country is dictated by law. The objection stems from YOU imposing YOUR religious beliefs on others through the operation of our laws. That type of imposition is inimical to liberty which makes the pledge a hypocritical FARCE. Where is the liberty and justice for all?

Liberty in itself IS a law... A human LAW...

No. Liberty is an inalenable right. On the other hand, the pledge of allegiance is the product of man-made law.

So, why are you using man-made law to impose your religious beliefs on others in violation of their liberty interests?

Quote:

Comment: A law like "gravity" that is granted by the "creator" God and not by a government... If the government was to make a law that gravity was no longer legal would we still stick to the earth? Would apples still fall to the ground? You can't turn the world upside down... This is why liberty is ABOVE GOVERNMENT and we are held by greater "laws" that are endowed by the "creator"... Liberty is one of them and liberty is "under" God not government... Now if you want to argue with gravity go ahead...

I don't understand. You just said that liberty is a human law. Now you're saying it was created by God.

Okay then: Why are you using the power of the government to make laws that impose your beliefs on others and deprive others of their God-given right to liberty (inclluding free will to believe or not to believe)?

That appears to be an unChristian thing to do.

Quote:

...Also, the pledge is not "dictated by law"... you can abstain from the pledge it is optional in school... It is just the majority opts to pledge allegiance to liberty as being "under God"... Yet this pledge is optional, this option is part of "the liberty". If it was under government, then it would be "dictated" by LAW under "government" not God...

Haven't you been listening? The words of pledge are dictated by law. Why must children abstain from pledging allegiance to our flag and our nation? Aren't non-believers entitled to pledge their devotion and loyalty to their country without having to pledge allegiance to your God at the same time? If your God is truly the God of Liberty as you claim, then God would never impose himself on the people. He would allow them to use their free will to choose to believe or not believe.

Why don't you respect God's teachings, according to you, and stop imposing your religious beliefs on others through our national pledge?

RexRed wrote:

Frank, God does not claim to be logical. God is not really logical... This is why God says in the Bible that mans wisdom is his foolishness. So God does not ascribe to "man's/womans" wisdom... This is why God's wisdom seems foolish. It is confound the high and mighty and to endear the meek and humble... It is to separate the prideful from the merciful.

I have no idea if there even is a God or not...and I suspect you don't either.

For you to be telling us there is a God...and that you know what the God is and isn't...

...is so absurd, I feel uncomfortable dignifying it with a response.

But...such is the life of someone who posts on the Internet.

If you are talking about the god of the Bible...the best possible guess is that the god is a fictional character.

"nuff said.

Quote:

My take on the meaning of the word "unalienable" is that we are all (humans) "created" equal and NONE are "alien" to the whole when it comes to basic rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness...

If we were "created" in the sense you mean...we most assuredly were not "created" equal...nor were we endowed with any rights...particularly any that are inalienable.

I don't know why anyone would want to be "under" the god of the Bible...but...

real life wrote:

Debra_Law wrote:

I don't understand. You just said that liberty is a human law. Now you're saying it was created by God.

Okay then: Why are you using the power of the government to make laws that impose your beliefs on others and deprive others of their God-given right to liberty (inclluding free will to believe or not to believe)?

Liberty IS given by God AND established by human law.

Have you never read:

Quote:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men.......

Of course, the men that drafted that subscribed to the Watchmaker God theory. The theory that God set everything in motion (wound it up so to speak) and then just let it go.

Again Frank you are part of the one percent of one percent that believes this...

You are confused I think...

You can be created equal but still be an individual...

Also, if you deny the spirit (new birth) and the word of God, then it is no wonder (proof) why YOU do not know... or think anyone else can know.

It takes spirit to KNOW spirit Frank...

Frank Apisa wrote:

I don't know why anyone would want to be "under" the god of the Bible...but...

Well in essence you are right Frank if you see the God of the Bible as one "ruler"... But as two rulers one true God and one false god you are right too... BUT, you have overlooked the true God in your distaste which leaves you at a definite spiritual disadvantage...

RexRed wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

I don't know why anyone would want to be "under" the god of the Bible...but...

Well in essence you are right Frank if you see the God of the Bible as one "ruler"... But as two rulers one true God and one false god you are right too... BUT, you have overlooked the true God in your distaste which leaves you at a definite spiritual disadvantage...

This post is bizarre, even my Rex-speak standards.

Not sure what you were trying to say here, Rex...but you didn't get it said.

And if you are going to talk about "the true god"...I would ask that you explain to us just what "the true god" is....and how you know any particular god is "the true god."

If it is just a guess on your part, by the way...it wouldn't be a bad idea to simply acknowledge that it is just a guess.

Frank Apisa wrote:

RexRed wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

I don't know why anyone would want to be "under" the god of the Bible...but...

Well in essence you are right Frank if you see the God of the Bible as one "ruler"... But as two rulers one true God and one false god you are right too... BUT, you have overlooked the true God in your distaste which leaves you at a definite spiritual disadvantage...

This post is bizarre, even my Rex-speak standards.

Not sure what you were trying to say here, Rex...but you didn't get it said.

And if you are going to talk about "the true god"...I would ask that you explain to us just what "the true god" is....and how you know any particular god is "the true god."

If it is just a guess on your part, by the way...it wouldn't be a bad idea to simply acknowledge that it is just a guess.

Frank, I was not trying to say anything particularly other than it was no wonder that if you did not discern the OT God as being "two" rulers that it was no wonder why you have taken the position of, Not being able to "know" God and also that God is (according to you) a barbarian...

I have also pointed out that there is a "true" God of the Bible that you have "completely" overlooked and even shunned often "over" your view that the God of the Bible is inept and that God in general is "unknowable"... This is not what I believe...

I am compelled to differ. I "know" the true God

....and I have found a loving God of "grace and mercy" not law and rigidity...


Ephesians 3:14-21
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. 20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

RexRed wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

RexRed wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

I don't know why anyone would want to be "under" the god of the Bible...but...

Well in essence you are right Frank if you see the God of the Bible as one "ruler"... But as two rulers one true God and one false god you are right too... BUT, you have overlooked the true God in your distaste which leaves you at a definite spiritual disadvantage...

This post is bizarre, even my Rex-speak standards.

Not sure what you were trying to say here, Rex...but you didn't get it said.

And if you are going to talk about "the true god"...I would ask that you explain to us just what "the true god" is....and how you know any particular god is "the true god."

If it is just a guess on your part, by the way...it wouldn't be a bad idea to simply acknowledge that it is just a guess.

Frank, I was not trying to say anything particularly other than it was no wonder that if you did not discern the OT God as being "two" rulers that it was no wonder why you have taken the position of, Not being able to "know" God and also that God is (according to you) a barbarian...

Actually...you are the only person I have personally known who espouses this particular notion. I'm sure there are others...but I don't think I've met anyone else that has offered this view.

Quote:

I have also pointed out that there is a "true" God of the Bible that you have "completely" overlooked and even shunned often "over" your view that the God of the Bible is inept and that God in general is "unknowable"... This is not what I believe...

I am compelled to differ. I "know" the true God

Really.

And you also KNOW you are not deluding yourself?

Quote:

....and I have found a loving God of "grace and mercy" not law and rigidity...


Ephesians 3:14-21
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. 20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be
put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their
lives." Leviticus 20:13

The very concept of "unalienable rights" is absurd no matter from whose pen it is writ.

Frank, if you are looking for the shock value it is not working... I do not take the OT as addressed to me or wholly coming from the true God...

Genesis 6:4
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Comment:
Isn't a giant a force, most likely, other than God's power that towers "above" the "heads/intellect" of ordinary men and women?

Frank, you are more interested in slamming God than understanding the Bible...

I may or may not be in fantasy land but you will never know yourself because of your "bias"...

dyslexia wrote:

The very concept of "unalienable rights" is absurd no matter from whose pen it is writ.

Government giveth and government taketh away... Do you want your rights alienated and in the hands of men/woman or God?

You are not thinking of the alternative? Totalitarian human tyranny over our "rights", or our rights God given to the people and "inalienable"? Anything but God? Just like your anything but Bush slogan... you extreme lefties are rather foolhardy and reckless in your folly...

RexRed wrote:

dyslexia wrote:

The very concept of "unalienable rights" is absurd no matter from whose pen it is writ.

Government giveth and government taketh away... Do you want your rights alienated and in the hands of men/woman or God?

I don't want my rights alienated at all!

But to suppose that they cannot be alienated...that they are inalienable...is foolish.

Quote:

You are not thinking of the alternative? Totalitarian human tyranny over our "rights", or our rights God given to the people and "inalienable"? Anything but God? Just like your anything but Bush slogan... you extreme lefties are rather foolhardy and reckless in your folly...

Jeez...another slam at the "extreme lefties."

Don't you "extreme righties" ever get tired of that?

Sounds like a wart hog calling a water buffalo an ugly animal.

Knowledge is golden.. To ignore the knowledge of God given rights is to stick ones head in the sand.

RexRed wrote:

Knowledge is golden.. To ignore the knowledge of God given rights is to stick ones head in the sand.

Funny, and here I thought our rights were earned by blood and sweat, not a gift from some ambiguously divine entity (who happens to be invisibile).

There you go again... You would rather put your rights in the hands of people rather that leave them in the hands of divine providence. Do you really think it is a decision made/earned by people that makes us all equal? Would you let a law made by people stop you from exercising your God given rights to "liberty" and life?

God has chosen the foolish to confound the high and mighty. It is foolish to think that something "invisible" is going to provides something visible (like food on your table). Yet, that is the wisdom of God... not the wisdom of the natural tendency of human thought. Our wisdom is God's foolishness.

When we try to examine light doesn't it "disappear"? Yet it provides warmth, vision and nourishes life. An invisible God is not that far of a jump from quantum physics.