Under God With Liberty

Yes but again Frank (you cannot learn) which God was speaking in the old testament? The God of this world or the one true God? Or was it a blend of both? There are two Gods spoken of in the Bible... The Devil is called the God [theos] of this world.

This is the purpose of Christ to come that we could "discern spirits" and to bring us closer to the true God of liberty. Otherwise what was his purpose if after his death we continue with the same spiritual conditions? The Bible says that God does not change... But we see a change from law to liberty so did God change or did our eyes become opened to the "true" God?

RexRed wrote:

Yes but again Frank (you cannot learn) which God was speaking in the old testament? The God of this world or the one true God? Or was it a blend of both? There are two Gods spoken of in the Bible... The Devil is called the God [theos] of this world.

This is the purpose of Christ to come that we could "discern spirits" and to bring us closer to the true God of liberty. Otherwise what was his purpose if after his death we continue with the same spiritual conditions? The Bible says that God does not change... But we see a change from law to liberty so did God change or did our eyes become opened to the "true" God?

Sorry for butting in here, but Rex, are you suggesting that the god of the OT can be confused with the devil?

I sure am, look at the book of Job, God and the devil seem all chummy buddy buddy... Yet in Job we see the goodness of God and the badness of the devil. I am saying the OT is a blend of both where the new testament reveals the true God.

RexRed wrote:

I sure am, look at the book of Job, God and the devil seem all chummy buddy buddy... Yet in Job we see the goodness of God and the badness of the devil. I am saying the OT is a blend of both where the new testament reveals the true God.

Interesting concept. Makes me wonder how much of the OT bible could have been inspired by the devil rather than by god. Or even the NT for that matter. Maybe the devil got tricker and learned to disguise himself a bit better.

RexRed wrote:

I sure am, look at the book of Job, God and the devil seem all chummy buddy buddy... Yet in Job we see the goodness of God and the badness of the devil. I am saying the OT is a blend of both where the new testament reveals the true God.

Interesting concept. Makes me wonder how much of the OT bible could have been inspired by the devil rather than by god. Or even the NT for that matter. Maybe the devil got tricker and learned to disguise himself a bit better.

Questioner wrote:

RexRed wrote:

I sure am, look at the book of Job, God and the devil seem all chummy buddy buddy... Yet in Job we see the goodness of God and the badness of the devil. I am saying the OT is a blend of both where the new testament reveals the true God.

Interesting concept. Makes me wonder how much of the OT bible could have been inspired by the devil rather than by god. Or even the NT for that matter. Maybe the devil got tricker and learned to disguise himself a bit better.

I've asked Rex on several occasions how he is able to determine what is the product of Satan...and what actually comes from the god.

I've never really gotten any answer that makes sense...but it seems to have to do with what Rex feels is right...and what he feels is wrong.

If it feels wrong to Rex...he says it comes from Satan. If it feels good to Rex...he says it comes from his god.

All I can say about that is....


.... (!) ....

Questioner wrote:

RexRed wrote:

I sure am, look at the book of Job, God and the devil seem all chummy buddy buddy... Yet in Job we see the goodness of God and the badness of the devil. I am saying the OT is a blend of both where the new testament reveals the true God.

Interesting concept. Makes me wonder how much of the OT bible could have been inspired by the devil rather than by god. Or even the NT for that matter. Maybe the devil got tricker and learned to disguise himself a bit better.

It is not a concept so to speak it is what the new testament teaches so it is more truth than a concept. Also I consider most of the NT to be inspired by the true God many of it's errors are in our understanding of the words.

Ro 8:20
For the creature [God] was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Ro 8:21
Because the creature [God] itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Comment:
The creature spoken of is the image of God that God put in Adam and Eve. When they sinned they gave the devil this image. This is what "died" in them on that day. This is why they could see both good and evil and not only good by nature... So when spiritless humans looked to God they saw the devil as God...

Frank Apisa wrote:

Questioner wrote:

RexRed wrote:

I sure am, look at the book of Job, God and the devil seem all chummy buddy buddy... Yet in Job we see the goodness of God and the badness of the devil. I am saying the OT is a blend of both where the new testament reveals the true God.

Interesting concept. Makes me wonder how much of the OT bible could have been inspired by the devil rather than by god. Or even the NT for that matter. Maybe the devil got tricker and learned to disguise himself a bit better.

I've asked Rex on several occasions how he is able to determine what is the product of Satan...and what actually comes from the god.

I've never really gotten any answer that makes sense...but it seems to have to do with what Rex feels is right...and what he feels is wrong.

If it feels wrong to Rex...he says it comes from Satan. If it feels good to Rex...he says it comes from his god.

All I can say about that is....


.... (!) ....

Frank the answer to your question is that you must have holy spirit to discern spirits. You use the image of God within to "know" God and the spirit will teach us the way... this is clear logic.

1Co 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

RexRed wrote:

Questioner wrote:

RexRed wrote:

I sure am, look at the book of Job, God and the devil seem all chummy buddy buddy... Yet in Job we see the goodness of God and the badness of the devil. I am saying the OT is a blend of both where the new testament reveals the true God.

Interesting concept. Makes me wonder how much of the OT bible could have been inspired by the devil rather than by god. Or even the NT for that matter. Maybe the devil got tricker and learned to disguise himself a bit better.

It is not a concept so to speak it is what the new testament teaches so it is more truth than a concept. Also I consider most of the NT to be inspired by the true God many of it's errors are in our understanding of the words.

Ro 8:20
For the creature [God] was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Ro 8:21
Because the creature [God] itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Comment:
The creature spoken of is the image of God that God put in Adam and Eve. When they sinned they gave the devil this image. This is what "died" in them on that day. This is why they could see both good and evil and not only good by nature... So when spiritless humans looked to God they saw the devil as God...

I'm not sure what version of the bible you're referring to when you pulled those quotes, but they are inaccurate.

Ro. 8:20
for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of him who subjected it in hope
Ro. 8:21
because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God.

The creation in these verses refers to man, in particular to the followers of Jesus in Rome. It was penned to be an uplifting message to essentially give the Roman christians hope that their persecution was only a temporary thing, and that having accepted Christ in their lives they would find eternal joy after death.

You can interpret (misinterpret?) that any which way you wish in an attempt to prove your point. However I think you may have over-interpreted this portion.

RexRed wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Questioner wrote:

RexRed wrote:

I sure am, look at the book of Job, God and the devil seem all chummy buddy buddy... Yet in Job we see the goodness of God and the badness of the devil. I am saying the OT is a blend of both where the new testament reveals the true God.

Interesting concept. Makes me wonder how much of the OT bible could have been inspired by the devil rather than by god. Or even the NT for that matter. Maybe the devil got tricker and learned to disguise himself a bit better.

I've asked Rex on several occasions how he is able to determine what is the product of Satan...and what actually comes from the god.

I've never really gotten any answer that makes sense...but it seems to have to do with what Rex feels is right...and what he feels is wrong.

If it feels wrong to Rex...he says it comes from Satan. If it feels good to Rex...he says it comes from his god.

All I can say about that is....


.... (!) ....

Frank the answer to your question is that you must have holy spirit to discern spirits. You use the image of God within to "know" God and the spirit will teach us the way... this is clear logic.

1Co 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

In other words...if a passage makes your god look good...it is the product of the god.

If a passage makes your god look like the jealous, vindictive, quick-to-anger slow-to-forgive, brutal, murderous, barbaric comic book character it is...it is the product of Satan.

Rather self-serving, I would say.

They are quoted from the King James Bible (which I use exclusively when I quote scripture unless otherwise stated) and I added the things within the hard brackets. When I add words I always include them in hard brackets to differentiate them from the words in the Bible. I should have said [God's image] rather than God in the brackets.

The creation/creature in these scriptures are not God himself but the "image" of God which is seen through a glass darkly and in the OT was sometimes even distorted or extorted. The spirit of Christ is what has revealed a more perfect rendering of this "image" creature/creation...

It was Christ who went into hell and took this image from the devil. I thank you for correcting me on this but the creature was certainly not man but the image [spirit] of God in man which man lost and gave to the devil in Eden.

This is why the new testament refers to the devil as a God [theos]. This was why the devil could offer Jesus "the kingdoms of the world" and make that claim believable. This is why they devil had the "dominion over the earth" that was once Adams and why he is called "the prince of the power of the air". Adam and Eve not only ate of the apple but then Adam committed high treason and granted the devil dominion over the earth. This then translates to a dual rulership in the OT that did subject the image of God to vanity..

RexRed wrote:

They are quoted from the King James Bible (which I use exclusively when I quote scripture unless otherwise stated) and I added the things within the hard brackets. When I add words I always include them in hard brackets to differentiate them from the words in the Bible. I should have said [God's image] rather than God in the brackets.

The creation/creature in these scriptures are not God himself but the "image" of God which is seen through a glass darkly and in the OT was sometimes even distorted or extorted. The spirit of Christ is what has revealed a more perfect rendering of this "image" creature/creation...

It was Christ who went into hell and took this image from the devil. I thank you for correcting me on this but the creature was certainly not man but the image [spirit] of God in man which man lost and gave to the devil in Eden.

This is why the new testament refers to the devil as a God [theos]. This was why the devil could offer Jesus "the kingdoms of the world" and make that claim believable. This is why they devil had the "dominion over the earth" that was once Adams and why he is called "the prince of the power of the air". Adam and Eve not only ate of the apple but then Adam committed high treason and granted the devil dominion over the earth. This then translates to a dual rulership in the OT that did subject the image of God to vanity..

Gotcha.

You'll forgive me for saying this I hope, but that sounds like an enormous amount of guesswork on your part. The concept of dual rulership is decidedly NOT made manifest in the OT. In fact, the OT is practically drowning in references to god being jealous, god being the only god, I AM. A dual rulership doesn't fit with that type of authoritative description. Especially not one with a being that at one point was god's underling.

Why are you so worried about how bad God looks when the world looks bad enough already? Do you think the world does not deserve a quick to forgive, merciful, moderate, God of grace and loving kindness? Maybe it is your own inability to forgive that is the problem... that may be the irony of your own transference. It may be your spiritual deficiencies that resign you to see things the way you do. So in essence you prove that the word is truth.

I have a question for you... Do you really think God is jealous? Let your heart/spirit answer that. Job demonstrates this dual rulership in clear imagery.

RexRed wrote:

I have a question for you... Do you really think God is jealous? Let your heart/spirit answer that. Job demonstrates this dual rulership in clear imagery.

Alright, let's take a look at Job.

Job 1:11 [satan says] But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

If this were a dual rulership, why would god need to grant power to satan to do anything in "his domain", and why would god be able to restrict satan from harming Job directly?

As for god being a jealous god, I have no reason to believe he's not, since he states it several times in the OT, and since I can't buy the dual - rulership bit you're trying to sell here.

I promise not to say "I told you so" when you finally discover conclusively that being logical with Rex will NEVER work!

Frank Apisa wrote:

I promise not to say "I told you so" when you finally discover conclusively that being logical with Rex will NEVER work!

We have to try. :wink:

RexRed wrote:

I have a question for you... Do you really think God is jealous? Let your heart/spirit answer that. Job demonstrates this dual rulership in clear imagery.

Alright, let's take a look at Job.

Job 1:11 [satan says] But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

If this were a dual rulership, why would god need to grant power to satan to do anything in "his domain", and why would god be able to restrict satan from harming Job directly?

As for god being a jealous god, I have no reason to believe he's not, since he states it several times in the OT, and since I can't buy the dual - rulership bit you're trying to sell here.

Questioner wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

I promise not to say "I told you so" when you finally discover conclusively that being logical with Rex will NEVER work!

We have to try. :wink:

Would it matter if I told you that I go back 6 - 7 years with Rex...in two different forums...

...and that I have never seen a single instance where a logically presented argument has ever caused him to consider even the most jarringly irrational, illogical bit of rationalization that he is trying to pass off as reason?

Rex is a good person. Of that, I am convinced. His "heart is in the right place" so to speak. But he is about as out of tune with reality as any human I've ever debated.