Under God With Liberty

mesquite wrote:

real life wrote:
Does it seem funny to anyone else that many of those who claim to want freedom from religion spend a considerable amount of time in a Religion Forum?

It is sort of like a creationist puttering around in an evolution forum.

Ha, good try. Actually it is an Evolution thread that is in a Religion forum. So the Evolution discussion is sorta out of place here as other posters have mentioned previously. But I don't mind.

If you are trying to draw a parallel, you won't find it here. Atheists who want to be 'free from religion' do not find a counter argument from me that I should have a right to be 'free from evolution'.

I don't mind people believing in evolution. Really. I don't agree with them and I think that their position is much more faith based than they would care to admit. But they have a right to their opinion and to it's expression.

I also think that creationists have the same right to expression and that it should not end when they enter a school house.

If kids are taught that evolution is the only possible way that we have arrived where we are, then the natural tendency for those who enter the sciences as a profession will be to bend all evidence to fit evolution and to toss out evidence that doesn't fit with the assumed answer.

That should not be how science operates.

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mesquite wrote:

RexRed wrote:
edgarblythe wrote:
Always with the "Why don't atheists want us to cram our religion down their throats?" real innocent like.

More like, why are liberals so hostile when those who are "religious" give their opinion?

Jesus was a liberal.

Really? In what way?

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edgarblythe wrote:

real life
The original post of this thread specifically targeted atheists. Why do you people target us and then get an attitude when we respond?
And, although it happens that people are discriminated against or even murdered by religious zealots of all persuasions, we are talking here of the more insidious oppression of putting religion into as many aspects of public life as possible; forcing it upon the unwilling with a vengeance.

Uh, EB can you get a little more vague?

I asked for your definition of 'force' and all I got was another accusation of religious folks using it.

Specifically, EB, how is anybody currently 'forcing' you to believe in a religious idea when you do not want to, or to perform some religious act when you do not want to?

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Jesus was a moderate Smile

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real life wrote:

mesquite wrote:

Jesus was a liberal.

Really? In what way?

Why is Jesus a Liberal?

Webster's dictionary defines a Liberal as one who is open minded, not
strict in the observance of orthodox, traditional or established forms or
ways. Jesus was a pluralist Liberal who taught that one need not
conform to strict and orthodox views of God, religion, and life. He
rejected greed, violence, the glorification of power, the amassing of
wealth without social balance, and the personal judging of others, their
lifestyles and beliefs.

Over and over again, He taught us to believe in and live a spiritual and
ethical life based in our essential, inherent goodness. What Jesus
promoted was succinct set of spiritual principals and a way of life
based upon the of love, compassion, tolerance, and a strong belief in
the importance in giving and of generosity to those in need.

While not Biblical scholars, our common sense understanding of His
lessons as philosophically and politically Liberal is founded upon Jesus'
own words (see quotes below), modern interpretations of Liberation
Theology, and in the positive, loving and compassionate application of
His teachings - from the many early Saints to Mother Theresa and
Liberation Theology.

Certainly, Jesus brought a radically Liberal theology to the Orthodox
believers of his time. Jesus IS a Liberal even today because now more
than ever, His principals align with the very core of Liberal Beliefs.

http://www.jesusisaliberal.org/

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mesquite wrote:

real life wrote:
mesquite wrote:

Jesus was a liberal.

Really? In what way?

Why is Jesus a Liberal?

Webster's dictionary defines a Liberal as one who is open minded, not
strict in the observance of orthodox, traditional or established forms or
ways. Jesus was a pluralist Liberal who taught that one need not
conform to strict and orthodox views of God, religion, and life. He
rejected greed, violence, the glorification of power, the amassing of
wealth without social balance, and the personal judging of others, their
lifestyles and beliefs.

Over and over again, He taught us to believe in and live a spiritual and
ethical life based in our essential, inherent goodness. What Jesus
promoted was succinct set of spiritual principals and a way of life
based upon the of love, compassion, tolerance, and a strong belief in
the importance in giving and of generosity to those in need.

While not Biblical scholars, our common sense understanding of His
lessons as philosophically and politically Liberal is founded upon Jesus'
own words (see quotes below), modern interpretations of Liberation
Theology, and in the positive, loving and compassionate application of
His teachings - from the many early Saints to Mother Theresa and
Liberation Theology.

Certainly, Jesus brought a radically Liberal theology to the Orthodox
believers of his time. Jesus IS a Liberal even today because now more
than ever, His principals align with the very core of Liberal Beliefs.

http://www.jesusisaliberal.org/

This seems to me to be a very deceptive line of argument.

You stated "Jesus is a liberal." The word 'liberal' as you use it here, is a noun.

When I asked your reasons why, you respond with a Webster's definition of liberal , used as an adjective.

These are two very different uses of the word. It is the difference between saying "I am green." and "I am a green."

Liberal, when used as a noun, has a distinctive political meaning which you wish Jesus fit into. He does not.

The positions which you ascribe to Jesus are largely foreign to Him. For instance, you describe Jesus as not being strict in observance of orthodox views of God. The truth is that Jesus showed repeatedly that He upheld the complete orthodox teaching of the Old Testament even when others about Him did not.

You rehash someone's fuzzy doctrine about Jesus teaching us to follow ethics based on our essential inherent goodness. Jesus taught nothing of the kind. The Old and New Testaments alike teach that Man is a sinner by nature, not inherently good. Experience also teaches us the same thing. If the World wars of the last century haven't shown you the folly of the idea of the inherent goodness and perfectability of Man, I guess you'll never get it.

And finally, even if it could be proven that Liberal political views of today are perfectly in line with Jesus' teaching, then by your own admission shouldn't that be the perfect reason why Liberal political views are NOT to be pursued politically or enacted as policy by our government since that would be a violation of the separation of church and state?

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There are Christians and then there are christians.

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You all seem to reject the infancy of God and adore the totalitarianism of government...

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Jesus was not a liberal. He was a man of "God's love" that covers all forms of judgement. This shows the introduction of a "dynamic" heart.

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Dynamism and law are incompatible.

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RexRed wrote:

edgarblythe wrote:
Philip Wtlie wrote, in the 1950s, that it may take another five hundred years for humans to shed the yoke of religion. Lately I have begun to think him overly optimistic.

Why shed a (Christian) God that has brought so much liberty and grace to so many for so long?

Are you suggesting we go back to tyranny and kingship?

You are all ding dongs...

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Sounds to me as though Jesus was close to being what these days we would call...a communist.

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Calling folks ding dongs doesn't address the topic.

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edgarblythe wrote:

Calling folks ding dongs doesn't address the topic.

Neither do dung hills.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Sounds to me as though Jesus was close to being what these days we would call...a communist.

Communism can only work when people are spiritually in common...

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real life wrote:

If you are trying to draw a parallel, you won't find it here. Atheists who want to be 'free from religion' do not find a counter argument from me that I should have a right to be 'free from evolution'.

Do you also want the right to be free from gravity? Whether or not you "believe" in it, evolution happens. Bacteria evolves resistence to antibiotics. The AIDS virus mutates. Pesticides become less effective. We exterminate some species by destroying their habitats, and imported species out-compete natives.

The only way to be "free from evolution" would be to move to the moon. Or qualify yourself for a Darwin Award.

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Re: Under God With Liberty

RexRed wrote:

Would the atheists and agnostics rather we (the religious) forget about a God of LIBERTY?

If you are referring to the God of the Bible, what makes you think that a god who approves of slavery and demands absolute obedience cares anything about Liberty?

While the country would undoubtedly be better of without using the Christian God as its standard of virtue, I am not opposed to worshipping any deity who truly represents Liberty.

How do you think that our country's acknowledged goddess (Lady Liberty, who has been featured on coins and stamps issued by the US government and whose statue is an icon of America that is recognized throughout the world) should be properly worshipped?

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Re: Under God With Liberty

Terry wrote:

RexRed wrote:
Would the atheists and agnostics rather we (the religious) forget about a God of LIBERTY?

If you are referring to the God of the Bible, what makes you think that a god who approves of slavery and demands absolute obedience cares anything about Liberty?

While the country would undoubtedly be better of without using the Christian God as its standard of virtue, I am not opposed to worshipping any deity who truly represents Liberty.

How do you think that our country's acknowledged goddess (Lady Liberty, who has been featured on coins and stamps issued by the US government and whose statue is an icon of America that is recognized throughout the world) should be properly worshipped?

Maybe you should instead of spouting your talking points read the Bible a bit more closely?

You would know why the Bible appears to approve of slavery and you would know why the year zero occured in the first century. It was because that "the church" was first made free from the law for a greater law...

James 1:25
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

James 2:12
So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Comment:
So under God with LIBERTY is representative of the God and father Christ Jesus.

Ro 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Comment:
The law was weak but liberty is a greater law facilitated by the spirit of God through Christ.

...again maybe you should try reading the Bible rather than "quoting" your agnostic/atheist talking points. The year zero marks the end of the old law and the beginning of the new law. This is why Christian children are not raised like Jewish/Muslim children with reading, writing, arithmetic and "law".

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Romans 3:21
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

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Re: Under God With Liberty

RexRed wrote:

Terry wrote:
RexRed wrote:
Would the atheists and agnostics rather we (the religious) forget about a God of LIBERTY?

If you are referring to the God of the Bible, what makes you think that a god who approves of slavery and demands absolute obedience cares anything about Liberty?

While the country would undoubtedly be better of without using the Christian God as its standard of virtue, I am not opposed to worshipping any deity who truly represents Liberty.

How do you think that our country's acknowledged goddess (Lady Liberty, who has been featured on coins and stamps issued by the US government and whose statue is an icon of America that is recognized throughout the world) should be properly worshipped?

Maybe you should instead of spouting your talking points read the Bible a bit more closely?

You would know why the Bible appears to approve of slavery...

The Bible does not appear to approve of slavery...it approves of slavery with a considerable amount of gusto.

Just as it clearly states that homosexual activity constitutes and abomination...and that people who do engage in homosexual activities should summarily be put to death.

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Re: Under God With Liberty

Frank Apisa wrote:

RexRed wrote:
Terry wrote:
RexRed wrote:
Would the atheists and agnostics rather we (the religious) forget about a God of LIBERTY?

If you are referring to the God of the Bible, what makes you think that a god who approves of slavery and demands absolute obedience cares anything about Liberty?

While the country would undoubtedly be better of without using the Christian God as its standard of virtue, I am not opposed to worshipping any deity who truly represents Liberty.

How do you think that our country's acknowledged goddess (Lady Liberty, who has been featured on coins and stamps issued by the US government and whose statue is an icon of America that is recognized throughout the world) should be properly worshipped?

Maybe you should instead of spouting your talking points read the Bible a bit more closely?

You would know why the Bible appears to approve of slavery...

The Bible does not appear to approve of slavery...it approves of slavery with a considerable amount of gusto.

Just as it clearly states that homosexual activity constitutes and abomination...and that people who do engage in homosexual activities should summarily be put to death.

Yes but again Frank (you cannot learn) which God was speaking in the old testament? The God of this world or the one true God? Or was it a blend of both? There are two Gods spoken of in the Bible... The devil is called the God [theos] of this world.

This is the purpose of Christ to come that we could "discern spirits" and to bring us closer to the true God of liberty. Otherwise what was his purpose if after his death we continue with the same spiritual conditions? Did he live and die in vain? The Bible says that God does not change... But we see a change from law to liberty so did God change or did our eyes become opened to the "true" God?

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Under God With Liberty

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