What say we return some COMPETENCE to government

This is so stupid as to be incredible, even coming from you. The invasion of Iraq is not something bad which just happened to the Shrub. This is the lamest apologia you have yet come up with. Your attempt at a defense is the only thing as lame which i've seen you produce.

well he did admit that Iraq war was a BAD THING THAT HAPPENED TO SOMEONE. He just didnt elaborate to whom.

Bush does not need to be competent, does not need a legacy. His assignment is to enrich his family, his inner circle and his corporate masters. He is doing quite well.

I told you not to remind me of that.

In response to Farmerman and Setanta -- I haven't made any final judgements concerning the reaction of various levels of government to the New orleans disaster. No doubt there will be incompetence and negelgence found in nearly every organization, public or private that was involved in the prelude or aftermath of rthese events. What is not yet clear is just what rises above the commonplace, or is particularly significant, in this area.

It seems very clear to me that the very unrestrained and voiciferous attacks on the Bush administration by media, political and A2K figures, already well-known for their political opposition to Bush, are most certainly not based on a reasoned dispassionate examination of the available facts - no such analysis is yet available. The opposition is obviously visceral and the "facts" cited are obviously selected to support a preexisting bias.

I have not argued that the Federal Government is without fault in this matter. Instead I have noted the very odd focus on it, despite the obvious primary responsibilities of logal government and the already evident lapses in their conduct, and argued that the exclusive focus on the Feds is contrary to the facts. Setanta counters with a flood of largely irellevant historical detail, oscillating between hyperbole and nit picking. Farmerman betrays science and common sense to insist that somehow levees would not have failed if Bush had not cut the Corps of Engineers budget request during the last few years and that we need a Thames River type oceanic surge control system at the mouth of the Mississippi - both contrary to evident facts concerning the process in Federal projects of this nature and the basic hydrology of the region - including the vanishing wetlands in the river delta..

No i did not "counter with a flood of largely 'irellevant' historical detail." I pointed out that the Shrub and his Forty Thieves of Baghdad had gone to war and proceeded incompetently. You then tried to raise an historical smokescreen, alleging that entirely dissimilar events were similar, and somehow either justified or excused the glaring incompetence of the Shrub's regime. Now you are again attempting a pathetic smoke screen, claiming i raised irrelevant historical details.

You brought up the historical comparisons, not i--and you did a piss-poor job of it into the bargain. Do you really believe that you need only deploy a lie, a false characterization, and that will stand for an argument?

And you betray your education by not demonstrating comprehension skills when youve attempted to portray what I stated, and totally incorrectly I might add. I suppose you were miffed because your J Bennet Johnston Waterway reference was not as you portrayed. (I personally would have just dropped it rather than trying to sound like you knew of what you spoke).
My comments, from the start, were pontedly addressing the Pontchartrain levees and , my references to the "Thames" was to recognize that a movable , reinforced set of gates , with flood surge protection , would cost about as much. As I said before, engineers are often not quick on the uptake to assimilate information presented in the form of analogy.

No matter what, our discussions regarding COMPETENCE have taken a new twist and Mike Browns "recall" may , perhaps, resound a call to some degree of competence after all.
"The first step to fixing a problem is to admit that you have one" This has always been the major shortfall of this administration. Now, by a" too little, too late" , semi admission by yet another administration plotzek, that, indeed, theyve had "special Ed" running the FEMA show, do we have reason to consider that, perhaps past decisions by GW were , at least, suspect?(I think this may be my longest yet run-on sentence)

As far as cutting the budget being a key reason in the Lake levee failures at 17th street Canal I am convinced the Feds were the major fault in this. However. I too, will let the investigations speak to that. Its weird that, up til now, we have heard NOTHING from the Army Corps. The Times Picayue has had articles since 2003 that the project funding process that was in place to handle the very levee that failed, had not been fully capitalized and contractors were working "at risk". As a member of the consulting industry, Georgeob, you know damn well that youd be answereing to your board if you took on such projects without some firm indication of payment. The 17th street canal area was the primary failure zone and it was the 20% of the levee that was not yet done. My colleagues AT uscoe HAD , IN SEVERAL MEETINGS EARLIER THIS YEAR , STAted that they hoped this was a quiet hurricane season cause they havent finished the lake levees.

YEH< I THINK THIS COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED AND I THINK THE ENGINEERING DEPT AT LSU AND THE TIMES PICAYUNE AND THE COE FELT THE SAME>. Its my refrain that"we could sure use a little more competence.

Ive heard the radio pick up on this today and NPR (the red brigade) has spoken out about IN- competence.

PS, a good PDF paper on the renourishment of the entire Guf Coast is included in this link. It contains the information on the barrier island and freshwater wetland area nourishment by controlled discharge and spot pumping of deeper channel waters into the Barataria area. I said before that there was one project, apparently they have 2 and with a sizable investment of about 14 Billion, the entire area can be restabilized by establishing the old barrier islands and hardwood forests that were once South of Nawlins

http://www.crcl.org/no_time_to_lose.pdf

Plotzek- plah'-tsek, a small potato pancake made of a batter containing shredded potatoes and onions. A dietary contribution by the Slavik tribes, adapted by the Teutonic tribes and Hebrews, who, without even a thank you , use it as a central feature of their holiday celebrations (cf lattkes)

1. Someone who, imbued with the properties of a plotzek,( ie limply lying there on a plate with no response to stimulii ) has no input toan emergency situation , and could, unless prodded, indefinately maintain this state.

2.A schlub.

Perhaps I don't understand just where you do stand, apart from suggesting the problem is the exclusive fault of the Federal Government and the Bush Administration in particular - a view that I regard as absurd and indefensible. My point about the J. Bennet Johnson waterway was that the investment very likely did not pass the economic/environmental benefit test prescribed for such investments, and that this senator was particularly proficient in by passing such analysis for the benefit of the interests he served through the legislative earmarking of funds. Partly as a result of his actions Louisiana received far more Federal capital investment than any state in the region., and yet somehow failed to address its most serious problems.



Well I read your paper thoroughly. It is quite similar in its essential argument and many of its underlying ecological and hydrological elements to the Everglades problem in Florida. Economic development of various types has destroyed the natural sheet flow of fresh water and sediment across a wetland system that extended from a fresh water interior to saline coastal regions. Both problems have spawned regional interest groups and very large State/Federal Programs (many billions each) for their remediation. Both problems involve the collision of powerful economic interests in each state, along with a number of hotly contested environmental issues. ( I have a good deal of personal experience in the direction of Everglades projects, but unfortunately none on the Mississippi delta. )

I am aware that Federal funding for the Louisiana project is relatively much greater than that for the Everglades. I was surprised to read in the paper you cited that the State of Louisiana is so deficient in meeting its own agreed responsibilities in funding these joint projects. The paper notes that while Florida has met its agreed funding responsibility for the Everglades project by matching Federal funding dollar for dollar, and that California has done the same on their coastal project, Louisiana has provided only 15% of its agreed funding for the project since its inception, leaving the Federal Government to continue without the legally and contracturaly required state match.

I believe at this point you should seriously reassess your position on this matter.

georgeob said

Convincing you is not real high on my list of to-dos, especially since youve taken a firm stance first, and now just wish to find evidence to support that point of view. The fact that the COE has complained that it hadnt been able to finish the verylevees that broke, is a stinging indictment of GW's messing with the budgets for his war in Iraq.
How can you excuse that action? Or are you so closely aligned to the Govt teat that your comments were preordained by finacial circumstances? I have no idea how you can ignore data and historical editorials in the Times Picayune about the status of the levees and the "diversion" of the funds


Im certain that the state and the city have a culpibility that cannot be excused. However the USCOE has always been the project administrator on interstate waterway and flood control (PS the SELA areea has never included Florida , so the comparisons are invalid)

Also, last time (I really hope you get it this time), The J Bennett waterway has been in existence for over 100 years.As for p[assing some"cost benefit" test , IT WAS ALREADY THERE BUT IN A DIFFERENT NAME, thats all. It wasnt a porky canal dig by a Senator.The activities on the flood control and navigation and the fixing up of the Atchafalaya cuttoff and te (later named) J Bennett waterway was all part of a huge SELA proje

ct that began after the 93 -94 Mississippi floods)
Snags and snag lakes and snag sloughs are a big problem in the Mississippi and Missouri waterways.I understand that hydrology is one of your practices.

I shall not "reconsider" my position because I find it fairly secure in fact , while yours is grounded on a belief that whatever GWB does is "good for me".

On another thread, we were posting our feelings on 9/11. I stated that at the time, we all gathered round him as our president. Subsequent actions by his admin, (not excluding Katrina) have made me quite angry at his lack of competence and honesty. THATS MY POINT and Im so glad youve given me a lead-in to reinforce the topic of this thread.

Glad to see this your first acknowledgement that there is State and Local government culpability in this disaster. Until now you had argued that the disaster was the exclusive result of Bush Administration actions to limit funding for the project.

Most of the canals around New Orleans have two very relevant characteristics on this problem: (1) They no longer provide a competitive economic advantage for transportation; and (2) they themselves have contributed to the problems of ground subsidence and the deterioration of the delta. They are a part of the problem; not the solution. Old ones should be filled in, not renamed and upgraded.

No one has remotely suggested that the Everglades and SELA projects were one and the same: only that they had similar causes and environmental effects, and that there were huge State/Federal projects established to deal with them. The key differences are two; (!) The Louisiana project involves the correction of a much greater publlic safety problem than does the Florida Everglades project, and (2) While the State of Florida has fully matched Federal funding for its project; Louisiana has (according to the report you posted) matched only 15% of the Federal funds provided. I submit that this, not the diversion of Federal funds, has been by far the major impediment to progress in Louisiana.

I have never argued that there is no fault to be found in the Federal government for this disaster and the response to it. Rather that the government entities with the primary responsibilities in both aspects of the problem are City and State, and that both have long been seriously remiss in meeting their responsibilities -- indeed the culture of Louisiana politics has long fostered this sort of negligence, graft and irresponsibility. Moreover this is one of the principal conclusions of the paper you posted above and asked me to read !! (I wonder if you read it yourself.)

just to remind georgeob about his initial discussions (after his diversionary "historical context" post

Since this was my post, I chose to concentrate on the failures of an easily identifiable target. You disagreed in some initial sort of "historical context" post that GWB was not any more incompetent than a few others whose relationships to the present disaster were not established or even opened for discussion.
George-I think I know that your opinions are "my President right or wrong" and youve been flinging semi insults about and Ive tried not to be disrepectful of my elders, but you can get rather amusing in the way you argue.
1You are now , from some authority trying to establish that the J Bennett should not have been updated from its original waterway. You realize that youre talking about the RED RIVER. The waterway is the RED River. Im sure the people of Denison and Shreeveport and Alexandria would like to understand your reasons for stating that this area , is, by its very existence part of the problem when you and I know that the Red River predated the Pleistocene let alone J Bennett Johnston.
AS for New Orleans,Sediment starvation is the major problem of the disappearance of the protective barrier islands, the old hardwood forests and the tidal wetlands that were once situate SW of New Orleans. Letting the J Bennett revert to snags and moving distributaries ND UNMAPPABLE OX-BOW LAKES IS UNACCEPTABLE LAND MANAGEMENT and nothing to do with New Orleans. However to let it revert back to snag lakes and moving oxbowswould now be stupid. AsThere are tens of thousands of acres of woodlands and farmland which would be changing boundariess and getting wiped out by snag floodsand this would also affect the Atchafalaya cuttoff, which, if reverted to a natural state, would capture ALL the Mississippi and leave New Orleans off the Miss waterwayentirely.

I know you cant back up the "economic C/B analysis" on the J Bennett , mostly cause you havent even begun to recognize the interconnecting return values on the projects life. (and it does have a finite life)


AS far as my contempt of GWB and his "robbing the completion funds from SELA and putting it to Iraq", thats not even under debate by smart folks. HEs royally f**ked up on this and will have to answer to the US in toto, Im sure he will have his staunch supporters like Rush and the other rightwing talking heads.
Anyway The breach of the lakeside levees was not about sediment starvation. It was about overtopping levees that were sinking and not refurbished. If you understand that link I gave you then you know that the Answer is a complex of individual interlaced projects that will include a number of sub projects, like
Levee rebuilding on the river and lake side

(and I ve added the seagate language from a series of seminars I attended at Tulane in the 90s). A seagate (movable levee top) would be a long term solution because its worked elswhere in the world

Sediment nourishment to create barrier islands in frront of hardwood forest benches and these all inland from new wetlands.

Most of the crescent side of New Orleans is above water where the business district, the Garden district and the French Quareter are, and, would be dry (is dry now, pretty much). The Meterie and lakeside parrishes are under water and with about 15 billion (about a few months expenditure in Iraq) this can be done. If it isnt done then New Orleans should reconsider its future.
The entire Federal funding of a Coastline restoration project is in the hands of the FEDS (as I said) not the state or locals.

Im critical of the mayor of NewOrleans for putting the people IN harms way by using the SUperdome. I thgink the governors failure to mobilize the national guard was inexcusable. the failure of the mayor to find the needed drivers to bus the people out is a lame excuse on his behalf.

HOWEVER, thats nothing to do with the entire flood proofing of the entire city. That was a Federal, COE, and should have been on FEMAS radar since they had the project funded completely and, to back it upthey had the "Hurricane PAm" scenario a year earlier and, . The feds had been harangued for at least25 years about the sediment renourshment projects

Im quite familiar with the report in the link I sent you. In those reports, everyone gets a bite at the apple, and some people get many bites at the wording. Those type reports (and even the Hurricane Pam reports) are usually done by consultants who take the data and massage it and they will say most anything that their clients wish them to say(if they wish to continue doing work)
Im home now, and Ive got all my resources and notes and stuff in a nice library office. I dont throw stuff away and Ive got more stuff on the hydrology of the Miss than youd want to see. So, if my memory fails me, I can dip into the well of printed and cached materials. Overall, I dont think I need the cute little admonitions of what or not to read and how to do my own analysis. Im talking as an ex citizen of the Garden District and Im pissed at how we've let this city down by what?

Insults, sophistry and evasion. Not a flattering picture of the author. Shall I be intimidated by the unseen contents of your library? I think not.

fact has a way of confronting myth. We will see.

well, Mike Brown has resigned. One down and many, many more to go.

yep. it will be interesting to see how far it goes. chertoff could be in jepardy.

I know that many colleagues in the Army Corps of Engineers are not sad to see him go. Yeh Chertoff is , we remember the "second best" Homeland Security Nominee .

Paulison is the new FEMA boss. Anybody know him?

Commensurate with their unusual manliness, it's an administration which will surely die with nobility, swords into stomach and up to heart.

I see this time they appointed someone with experiece and not some political hack. To bad it took so many lives to make the Bush realize that this is to important a position for cronyism.

"I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees." -President Bush, on "Good Morning America," Sept. 1, 2005, six days after repeated warnings from experts about the scope of damage expected from Hurricane Katrina

"It makes no sense to spend billions of dollars to rebuild a city that's seven feet under sea level....It looks like a lot of that place could be bulldozed." -House Speaker Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.), Aug. 31,2005

"We've got a lot of rebuilding to do ... The good news is ?- and it's hard for some to see it now ?- that out of this chaos is going to come a fantastic Gulf Coast, like it was before. Out of the rubbles of Trent Lott's house ?- he's lost his entire house ?- there's going to be a fantastic house. And I'm looking forward to sitting on the porch." (Laughter) ?-President Bush, touring hurricane damage, Mobile, Ala., Sept. 2, 2005


"I have not heard a report of thousands of people in the convention center who don't have food and water." -Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, on NPR's "All Things Considered," Sept. 1, 2005

"What didn't go right?'" -President Bush, as quoted by House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-CA), after she urged him to fire FEMA Director Michael Brown "because of all that went wrong, of all that didn't go right" in the Hurricane Katrina relief effort

"We finally cleaned up public housing in New Orleans. We couldn't do it, but God did." -Rep. Richard Baker (R-LA) to lobbyists, as quoted in the Wall Street Journal

"We just learned of the convention center - we being the federal government - today." -FEMA Director Michael Brown, to ABC's Ted Koppel, Sept. 1, 2005, to which Koppel responded " Don't you guys watch television? Don't you guys listen to the radio? Our reporters have been reporting on it for more than just today."

"I don't want to alarm everybody that, you know, New Orleans is filling up like a bowl. That's just not happening." -Bill Lokey, FEMA's New Orleans coordinator, in a press briefing from Baton Rouge, Aug. 30, 2005

"I understand there are 10,000 people dead. It's terrible. It's tragic. But in a democracy of 300 million people, over years and years and years, these things happen." --GOP strategist Jack Burkman, on MSNBC's "Connected," Sept. 7, 2005

A young [black] man walks through chest deep floodwater after looting a grocery store in New Orleans..."
"Two [white] residents wade through chest-deep water after finding bread and soda from a local grocery store after Hurricane Katrina came through the area in New Orleans..." -captions at Yahoo News, Aug. 30, 2005

"Judge Roberts can, maybe, you know, be thankful that a tragedy has brought him some good." -Christian broadcaster Pat Robertson, arguing that Supreme Court nominee John Roberts stands to benefit from Hurricane Katrina because "inflamed rhetoric in the United States Senate is just not going to play well now," Sept. 1, 2005

"As of Saturday (Sept. 3), Blanco still had not declared a state of emergency, the senior Bush official said." -Washington Post staff writers Manuel Roig-Franzia and Spencer Hsu, who didn't bother to fact-check the blatant lie peddled by the Bush administration as part of its attempts to pin blame on state and local officials, when, in fact, the emergency declaration had been made on Friday, Aug. 26

And finally

"Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job." -President Bush, to FEMA director Michael Brown, while touring Hurricane-ravaged Mississippi, Sept. 2, 2005

OOOOPS!
One more
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05253/569133.stm