4
   

Why does the Bible get misinterpreted so often????

 
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2005 07:37 pm
xingu wrote:
Here's a link that shows many Muslim countries pledged more for the tsunami victims, per capita, then America.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/dis_tsu_tot_aid_pac_cap

So what?
[url=http://www.alertnet.org/thefacts/aidtracker/][u][i][b]Reuters Aid Tracker[/b][/i][/u][/url] wrote:
... Aid pledges by the 20 biggest government and multilateral donors total $6.65 billion, according to Reuters research. Of this $5.17 billion has now been paid out or approved for spending. Most smaller donors have now allocated all their aid.

Total tsunami aid pledges top $7 billion. Add to that some $5 billion of private donations to aid organisations by individuals, companies, foundations and religious groups, and you have the biggest display of generosity after any natural disaster in history ...

... The United States is the biggest tsunami donor with a total $2.34 billion of government and private pledges.
(Wed Sep 14 12:22:55 2005)

More than any other entity is more than any other entity. The US alone, of about 100 contributing nations, accounts for 20% of overall aid pledged so far

Continuing in misapprehension, you wrote:
When the Katrina disaster unfolded Kuwait offered us $500,000,000; Bahrain $5,000,000 and Afghanistan, as poor as it is, offered us $100,000. Cuba and Venezuela offered us help and Bush turned them down.

The reason;
In a statement on Venezuela's and Cuba's offers of assistance, a scholar at a conservative Washington-based think tank, the Heritage Foundation, Stephen Johnson, warned that offers of aid from rogue regimes in the past have served as cover for drumming up support for leftist causes. Mr. Johnson warned not to "let in political opportunists eager to sow discord or probe the coastline for weaknesses in defense."

http://www.nysun.com/article/19761


To which I offer in rebuttal and refutation the following:

[url=http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-09-07-katrina-world_x.htm][u][i][b]USA TODAY[/b][/i][/u][/url] wrote:
... The Bush administration has rejected only one offer, of 20 million barrels of oil from Iran. Thomas said the offer was made through the media and rebuffed because it was conditioned on the United States lifting economic sanctions.

The administration accepted an offer from Venezuela, whose President Hugo Chavez has irritated the Bush administration by forging close ties with Cuba. Venezuela's national oil company is shipping an additional 1 million barrels of oil to the United States to alleviate shortages caused by Katrina.

"Venezuela is privileged to be able to help the United States in this time of need," Bernardo Alvarez Herrera, Venezuela's ambassador to the United States, said in a statement e-mailed to reporters Wednesday ...


[url=http://www.startribune.com/stories/484/5602546.html][u][i][b]Associated Press[/b][/i][/u][/url] wrote:


... Harry Thomas Jr., the State Department executive secretary who is helping to coordinate the foreign relief effort, denied Wednesday that the Bush administration was lukewarm toward accepting foreign aid offers. "Not in the State Department," Thomas said. "We welcomed all offers."

Still, the effort to coordinate foreign aid has faced many of the same difficulties and delays that have dogged the entire emergency response. Wednesday, three Canadian warships and one coast guard ship departed for the Gulf Coast, a week after the government rushed to pack them with emergency assistance.

Doctors offered by Cuba to help attend Katrina's victims probably won't be needed because the supply of U.S. physicians is adequate, the State Department suggested Tuesday. Officially, the U.S. is undecided about the offer by Cuban President Fidel Castro, with whom the United States lacks full diplomatic relations. Iran offered to send the United States 20 million barrels of crude oil if Washington waived trade sanctions, but a State Department official said Wednesday that offer was rejected ...


Iran offered to buy her way out of trade sanctions, Cuba's offer of doctors fills no need. No other offers have been turned away. You need better talking points.


then, venturing at last a bit closer to theophilosophic discussion, you wrote:
I thought I made it rather clear. I believe when we die we all go through a life review. We are shown the good and bad things we have done. We learn by feeling the pain form our errors and the joy from our benefits. We are here to learn. We will come back.

As you say, that is what you believe. Others may and do believe differently. None have any basis beyond preference of belief for the respective belief held; empirically, logically, forensically, any of those belief sets belief set is as valid - or invalid - as its counterparts.

capping your essay's foray into error, you wrote:
Life is not a test, not a one time right-wrong, go to heaven or go to hell situation as some fundamentalist Bible thumpers would want you to believe. It would be rather stupid of a God to put a soul in the infinite number of situations souls find themselves in when they are born and expect them to select the "correct" religion if they are expected to be saved. Yet that's what many Christians believe. You will be judged by your faith, not words and deeds.

Deism is one God for all. It matters not to God your faith or belief. If your God is so weak that it just can't stand not to be accepted or worshiped then it does not deserve any respect.

Should the predicate concept of proposition be unresolved, the proposition procedes from an illicit premise. Though you illustrate the absurdity of religion well, and decry it, you participate in its foundational but illicit premise; that there be a deity is a matter unresolved. No argument functionally dependent upon either the existence or nonexistence of a deity has any forensically valid foundation, no valid proof of proposition may procede from an illicit premise.

As for your statement " ... Deism is one God for all", well, in my opinion, that assertion is uninformed poppycock. Deism is naught but a name given to a set of epistemological and metaphysical claims, an unsubtantiable assumption. Stemming from antecedants dating as early as the 6th and 5th Centuries BCE, found in the writings of the pre-Socratic philosophers of Greece. The concept grew, was explored and elaborated upon by such as Critias, Plato, Aristotle, was further developed and structured by the Epicureans, Stoics, and Academics, and emerged essentially fully formed in the works of Rome's Cicero, most particularly in his De Natura Deorum, in which he compared and contrasted philosophical and popular religions. Cicero's views foundationally influenced the thinking of the likes of Plutarch, Celsus, Julian, and even the early Christian apologists. Ciceronian influence also may be found in the writings of the earliest of Islamic scholars. Through the Medieval period, the concept persisted, but development slowed, restrained by the stranglehold of Roman Christianity throughout Europe.

As a formed (if not yet formalized), named concept, Deism appears first in the 16th Century works of one Pierre Viret, a Calvinist, who employed the term in his Instruction Chrestienne, characterizing it as a heresy created through the naturalism of the Italian Renaissance. In lamenting the turmoil of The Reformation, Viret held that the "déistes", though possessed of a belief in God on the order of the "Turks and the Jews" (" ... comme les Turcs & les Juifs ... "), were inescapably heretical, fatally flawed in that it was their belief doctrine derived through the evangelists and apostles was based in mere "myths and dreams" (" ... la doctrine des Évangélistes & des Apostres only fables & resveries ... "). Viret contended deists abused and subverted the freedom and liberty of thought pursuant to The Reformation. While Viret himself criticized and condemmed idolatry and superstition, he regarded with horror the application by those he termed deists the same reasoning to the Christian mythopaeia and tradition.

Later in the 16th Century, a discusion of on religion recounted in Jean Bodin's Colloquium Heptaplomeres includes a participant identified as a deist, and in the early 17th Century, Robert Burton's Anatomy
of Melancholy
presents a list of contemporary "Deists". As the 17th Century progressed and yielded to the 18th, the concept was visited, and variously critiqued, criticized, endorsed or condemmed by, among others, de Montaigne, assorted Catholic and Protestant fideists, de Bergerac, Naudé, La Mothe le Vayer, Giovanni Diodati, Grotius, Hooker, René Descartes, Hobbes, de Patot, de Saint-Évremond, Peyrère, Spinoza, and Lord Herbert of Cherbury (arguably the first English Deist).

It was in latter 17th and throughout 18th Century England the concept became what it is today, elaborated, expanded, and championed by Chillingworth, Hales, the Cambridge Platonists, and other protagonists of increasingly liberalized Enlish theophilosophical thought. The writings of Lord Shaftesbury, Tindal, Woolston, Chubb, Trenchard, Middleton, Lord Bolingbroke, and Gordon formed a sythesis of contemporary theocratic and political thinking, with emphasis on rational thought, reasoned argument, individual liberty, and the inate equality of all men. It became a hot topic at coffee houses and genteel get-togethers; it was a favored pastime of the privileged, the idle educated, the members of academic and scientific societies, the elitists of the day.

Spreading back to The Continent, and abroad to The Colonies, English Deism left its mark on such latter 18th Century movers-and-shakers as Toland, Pluche, Robespierre, Gordon, America's own Paine, Franklin, and Jefferson. It may be said the 18th Century was the Golden Age of Deism, thyough the period saw too the roots of its demise as as a major theophilosophic discipline. Hume, Butler, Berkeley, Diderot, Rousseau, Lessing, Burke, and Herder mounted substantial and sustantive challenge to the precepts of Deism, turning the logic and reason which had birthed the concept back on itself to expose the logical, rational, and ethical flaws of the thought system. By the dawn of the 20th Century, what had been Deism was little more than a footnote to be found in texts concercning theophilosophic studies; it had no renkowned proponents, no wide adherence, no social currency.

The heir to Deism may be found today chiefly in the works of contemporary "freethinking", liberal. permissivist critics of the religionist proposition centered on the Christian subset of the Abrahamic mythopaeia.

As I said, thats my opinion, and certainly, that opinion is a bit biased; I'm burdened by a close familiarity and long fascination with philosophy, theology, archeology, anthropology, history, logic, and reason. I must admit of my interest in those matters it seems at times almost an obsession.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2005 08:38 pm
timberlandko wrote:
The "heavens and the earth" show that physics works. Time, energy, mass, and chemistry are real, all else is at best a guess.


Where did mass and energy come from, Timber?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2005 09:27 pm
real life wrote:
timberlandko wrote:
The "heavens and the earth" show that physics works. Time, energy, mass, and chemistry are real, all else is at best a guess.


Where did mass and energy come from, Timber?

Dunno - and neither does anyone else - some folks feel a need to swear by a guess, a guess which requires a highly improbable confluence of interdependent unwarranted assumptions, but thats just silly.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2005 09:49 pm
timberlandko wrote:
real life wrote:
timberlandko wrote:
The "heavens and the earth" show that physics works. Time, energy, mass, and chemistry are real, all else is at best a guess.


Where did mass and energy come from, Timber?

Dunno - and neither does anyone else - some folks feel a need to swear by a guess, a guess which requires a highly improbable confluence of interdependent unwarranted assumptions, but thats just silly.


Two possibilities are:

Matter and energy were created ( i.e. they had a beginning point) ; or they were not created ( i.e. they were eternally pre-existent).

What do you think? Surely you have an opinion.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Sep, 2005 01:52 am
real life wrote:
timberlandko wrote:
real life wrote:
timberlandko wrote:
The "heavens and the earth" show that physics works. Time, energy, mass, and chemistry are real, all else is at best a guess.


Where did mass and energy come from, Timber?

Dunno - and neither does anyone else - some folks feel a need to swear by a guess, a guess which requires a highly improbable confluence of interdependent unwarranted assumptions, but thats just silly.


Two possibilities are:

Matter and energy were created ( i.e. they had a beginning point) ; or they were not created ( i.e. they were eternally pre-existent).

What do you think? Surely you have an opinion.


Flip a coin, Timber....flip a coin.
0 Replies
 
3drdre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Sep, 2005 08:35 am
This is a very easy question, with a very easy solution.

First, we have to ask ourselves a few things based on observations. We know that Christian parents that take the Bible literally word-by-word teach their kids the same things (I was taught that but never really bought into it as I grew older based on logical assumptions). Well, where did these parents learn this behavior: from their parents, etc. etc. The teaching of this litereral Christianity is taught by almost every priest, minister, or what have you. Is there a reason why every minister/priest preaches literal interpretation, or do they just not know the real truth?

Thankfully, I asked my doctor, who is also a priest (and went to the prestigious Notre Dame University in South Bend) about some questions I had about ethics, morals, and the Bible. He said it can't be interpreted literally from his word, but as a priest he would probably answer the question differently.

I asked why, and he gave a very interesting answer. He said that if he preached to people to not take the Bible literally, then he would lose his job, simply because PEOPLE CAN NOT HANDLE THE TRUTH. He pointed out that people in general are too ignorant in their thinking and wouldn't be able to make sense of everything and would have too many questions. They would doubt their religion because they think the Bible is the word of God, when in actuality it is a 2000 year old compilation of books written by man.

He said he would lose his job because if he did teach the legit truth about Christianity in its debateable prospects that people probably wouldn't come to church much anymore because the ywould doubt their God. And if they didnt come to church, then the church would lose money and couldn't function. Makes sense.

I asked him if there was a God. He told me that he doesn't know and that no one knows. He said the reason we have religion is because people want to make sense of the universe and want to think they are going somewhere after they die. If people didn't believe in an afterlife, then they would have nothing to look forward to. Religion allows us to think that our problems will end one day and we will be happy in heaven where there are no problems. Because if people realized that there probably isn't a heaven, since it is a philosophy based on no scientific logic (which religion mainly is in the first place), then they would be more depressed about their current situtation in life if they weren't happy.

I read this book called "The Case for Faith" by Lee Strobel, and he said "you can't have hot without cold. you can't have highs without lows. you can't have good without evil. you also can't have faith without doubt." Interesting.

If you want to know more about the Old Testament, since it is highly debatable about the miraculous, unexplainable stories, then I suggest you read 101 Myths of the Bible by Gary Greenberg. Tells how the Bible was invented which is a great read.

I asked my doctor why he thought he was a Christian if he didn't believe in every aspect of the Bible. He said "I believe that Jesus is the ultimate representation of what God is, even if he isn't the so-called son of God." Yes, he thinks there probably is a God, but he doesn't know for sure there is one, as no one does as I stated earlier. He doesn't necessarily buy into the all-knowing God that has control of every situation on the planet because there is too many falsifable questions like "If someone isn't brought up in Christianity, is it fair that they don't go to heaven" or "how come a person that isn't a Christian but lives a moral life wouldn't go to heaven but an immoral, evil Christian that lives a sinful life would go heaven."
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Sep, 2005 01:28 pm
real life wrote:
Quote:

Where did mass and energy come from, Timber?

timberlandko wrote:
Dunno - and neither does anyone else - some folks feel a need to swear by a guess, a guess which requires a highly improbable confluence of interdependent unwarranted assumptions, but thats just silly.


Two possibilities are:

Matter and energy were created ( i.e. they had a beginning point) ; or they were not created ( i.e. they were eternally pre-existent).

What do you think? Surely you have an opinion.

My opinion is that given the existing data and our current level of scientific sophistication, not only is the question as posed unanswerable, but also that there is no logical reason to assume only the two suggested, mutually exclusive possibilities exist. It further is my opinion that any assertion one may make alledging one "knows" the answer would be ludicrous at best, and most likely merit a rather less charitable assessment of worth.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Sep, 2005 01:59 pm
Quote:
No argument functionally dependent upon either the existence or nonexistence of a deity has any forensically valid foundation, no valid proof of proposition may procede from an illicit premise.


My foundation is the Near Death Experience of the thousands of people of all races and religions. For me that, not the Bible, is the best evidence for a God. For those who have experienced NDE and had a personal encounter with The Light they are convinced beyond doubt of God's existence and, in most all cases, the falseness of the Christian religion or a vengeful, wrathful God. This testimony of thousands of people over the course of human history is the foundation for the existence of a God. How these experiences are seen, used, twisted and distorted is the story of religion.

Quote:
The heir to Deism may be found today chiefly in the works of contemporary "freethinking", liberal. permissivist critics of the religionist proposition centered on the Christian subset of the Abrahamic mythopaeia.


And this is why Christians dislike Deist. Deist are the free thinkers that will not follow conventional religious dogma. Deist do not recognize the religions that want to control. Deist, like me, don't need a religion. Having a personal faith without belonging to a religion or following a dogma set down by humans, not God, suits us fine. And relying on a book supposedly written by a God who is no better then slkshock's Mao is something I find morally repugnant.

All references to aid for the tsunami victims was based on a per capita basis. Since we are the richest nation in the world it's hopeful we will contribute the most. But on a per capita basis we are a bit stingy compare to others. If you had read the introduction to the bar graph you will see that we don't hold to our pledges. Talk is cheap with our government until it's time to fork over the money.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Sep, 2005 08:20 pm
xingu wrote:
My foundation is the Near Death Experience of the thousands of people of all races and religions. For me that, not the Bible, is the best evidence for a God .... This testimony of thousands of people over the course of human history is the foundation for the existence of a God.

Poppycock. The physiology and psychology of the so-called "Near Death Experience", and its cousin, the "Out of Body Experience", have been the focus of considerable academically and scientifically valid research. The only conclusion that may be drawn from the voluminous, mutually corroborative, multiply independently replicated studies is that the phenomonon is a well understood, thoroughly natural, remarkably consistent psychochemical process. The administration of any of several of a particular category of pyschoactive drugs will bring about a perfect mimic of the symptoms.

Quote:
How these experiences are seen, used, twisted and distorted is the story of religion.

That I can go with.

Quote:
And this is why Christians dislike Deist. Deist are the free thinkers that will not follow conventional religious dogma. Deist do not recognize the religions that want to control. Deist, like me, don't need a religion. Having a personal faith without belonging to a religion or following a dogma set down by humans, not God, suits us fine. And relying on a book supposedly written by a God who is no better then slkshock's Mao is something I find morally repugnant.

Cool for you - whatever you've decided provides you the comfort you've decided you need, fine. If it works for you, it works for you.

Quote:
All references to aid for the tsunami victims was based on a per capita basis. Since we are the richest nation in the world it's hopeful we will contribute the most. But on a per capita basis we are a bit stingy compare to others. If you had read the introduction to the bar graph you will see that we don't hold to our pledges. Talk is cheap with our government until it's time to fork over the money.

Crap - pure unadulterated crap. The US indeed is the richest nation on the planet, and indeed provides by far the greatest portion of all aid and assistance distributed on the planet - period.

Quote:
A 'stingy' US? Hardly
By Bruce Bartlett

DALLAS - The other day, a United Nations official accused the United States of being "stingy" in terms of aid to tsunami victims in South Asia. After criticism from the State Department, the official clarified his position: Americans are not being stingy in helping tsunami victims, only stingy in terms of overall foreign aid as compared with other countries.

This is a familiar attack, which comes up annually when the foreign aid appropriations bill is before Congress. But let's look at the facts. According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development in 2003, the world's major countries gave a total $108.5 billion in foreign aid. Of this, the US contributed $37.8 billion, or 35 percent of the total. The next largest foreign aid contributor was the Netherlands, which gave $12.2 billion, following two years in which it was actually a net recipient of foreign aid.

The claim of stinginess, however, comes from a different calculation - foreign aid as a share of national income. In 2003, US foreign aid came to just 0.34 percent, well below the world-leading Dutch at 2.44 percent. Other big contributors are Ireland (1.83 percent), Norway (1.49 percent), and Switzerland (1.09 percent). The US would have to triple foreign aid just to reach the lowest of these contributors.

The first thing one notices when looking at the big foreign aid contributors is that they all spend very little on national defense. According to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, in 2002, the Netherlands spent just 1.6 percent of its gross domestic product (GDP) on defense. Norway spent 2.1 percent, Switzerland spent 1.1 percent, and Ireland spent a piddling 0.7 percent. By contrast, the US spent 3.4 percent - and this was before the Iraq war. It's easy to be generous with foreign aid when another country is essentially providing your defense free of charge.

Another thing one notices is that the foreign-aid data only reflect "official" (i.e., government) aid. The data are sketchy, but by all accounts Americans are far more generous in terms of charitable contributions than the citizens of any other country.

A 1991 study found Britain to have the second-largest percentage of private charitable giving. But in 2003, charitable giving amounted to £8.6 billion, or 0.8 percent of GDP, in Britain, according to the Charities Aid Foundation, compared with $241 billion, or 2.2 percent of GDP, in the US, according to the American Association of Fundraising Counsel.

But even this estimate of charitable giving by Americans is low because it counts only cash contributions and omits volunteer work.

In the area of international aid, the official data also exclude private transfers, such as remittances by foreign workers in the US. According to the Inter-American Development Bank, remittances to Latin America alone amounted to $38 billion in 2003 - more than all official assistance combined. And $31 billion of that came from the US. In some countries, foreign remittances came to more than 10 percent of GDP, thus having a significant impact on economic growth and poverty alleviation.

Carol Adelman, a former US Agency for International Development official, attempted to calculate a total of all private foreign aid in 2000 in a 2003 Foreign Affairs magazine article. She found that private foreign aid greatly exceeded that provided by the US government. Official aid came to $22.6 billion that year, but private aid came to $35.1 billion, including $18 billion in remittances, $6.6 billion from private voluntary organizations, $3.4 billion in aid from churches, $3 billion from foundations, $2.8 from corporations, and $1.3 billion from universities.

But even this understates the extent to which Americans help developing countries, because it excludes private investment and trade. According to the Institute of International Finance, in 2003, Americans invested $124 billion in emerging market economies, three-fourths in direct investment such as plant and equipment, and the rest in stocks and bonds.

Americans also buy a considerable amount of goods from developing countries. This year, about a third of all our imports will come from developing countries, providing jobs and incomes for millions of poor people. This is probably less than most protectionists think. The bulk of our imports still come from industrialized countries such as Canada, Japan, and Germany.

In short, the charge of stinginess is unfounded. The United States carries much of the world on its back, providing other nations with security, aid, and much of their investment and income. It also pays for a fourth of all the salaries of UN bureaucrats.



Nobody does more, few do even nearly as much. Per-Capita Contribution Rank is wholly irrelevant to the recipient of the largess. You want Per Capita? Fine; Per Capita, those in the US who are "Below the Poverty Line", as determined by international standards, are the richest poor on the planet.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Sep, 2005 08:52 pm
timberlandko wrote:
real life wrote:
Quote:

Where did mass and energy come from, Timber?

timberlandko wrote:
Dunno - and neither does anyone else - some folks feel a need to swear by a guess, a guess which requires a highly improbable confluence of interdependent unwarranted assumptions, but thats just silly.


Two possibilities are:

Matter and energy were created ( i.e. they had a beginning point) ; or they were not created ( i.e. they were eternally pre-existent).

What do you think? Surely you have an opinion.

My opinion is that given the existing data and our current level of scientific sophistication, not only is the question as posed unanswerable, but also that there is no logical reason to assume only the two suggested, mutually exclusive possibilities exist. It further is my opinion that any assertion one may make alledging one "knows" the answer would be ludicrous at best, and most likely merit a rather less charitable assessment of worth.


Hi Timber,

If you think there is realistically a third or fourth or fifth reasonable possibility then put it out there. If not, then throw in the towel, my friend, and admit that there are two: Matter was created, or it wasn't.

Then address the question which of the two could best account for all of the complexity and intricacy of design that we see in the universe, systems that function according to regulating principles and are predictable, many processes that are so complex that we barely understand the workings of them:

A) Eternally pre-existing matter and sheer blind chance

B) An incredibly intelligent Creator whose nature we cannot fully comprehend
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Sep, 2005 10:19 pm
Re: Why does the Bible get misinterpreted so often????
Frank Apisa wrote:
Why does the Bible get misinterpreted so often????


Because every time it gets interprted correctly, the guy who does it goes, "Nah, that can't be right, that's stupid", and he changes it to be something that he thinks is less stupid. And on and on it goes, with people changing it every time to suit their own desires and wishes.

What we are left with after thousands of years is an operatic picture of the cumulative psychology of humanity in all it's twisted glory. Amen.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Sep, 2005 02:33 am
real life wrote:


If you think there is realistically a third or fourth or fifth reasonable possibility then put it out there. If not, then throw in the towel, my friend, and admit that there are two: Matter was created, or it wasn't.


But above all, Timber, don't acknowledge that we may not be nearly intelligent enough...nor have nearly enough knowledge about the universe in which we live to be able to definitively say whether the complexities of existence allow for such simplistic notions as it must be "either this or that."

Because....well, because Life just doesn't want you to do that.


Quote:


Then address the question which of the two could best account for all of the complexity and intricacy of design that we see in the universe, systems that function according to regulating principles and are predictable, many processes that are so complex that we barely understand the workings of them:

A) Eternally pre-existing matter and sheer blind chance

B) An incredibly intelligent Creator whose nature we cannot fully comprehend


Yeah Timber. Then address the question of whether...

...it is more likely that something so complex simply always existed by "blind chance"...

...or that something even more complex simply always existed by "blind chance" and then created this other "something so complex."

C'mon now, Timber. Answer up!
0 Replies
 
thunder runner32
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Sep, 2005 04:31 pm
What other possibilities exist?

It was there, or it wasn't....
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Sep, 2005 04:55 pm
thunder_runner32 wrote:
What other possibilities exist?

It was there, or it wasn't....


Does seem so simple, doesn't it.

But not too many years ago it seemed simple to suppose the earth was a pancake flat object around which all those lights circled.

We really do not know how complicated the REALITY is.

For instance...maybe neither is correct.

Maybe its not even here now!
0 Replies
 
thunder runner32
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Sep, 2005 05:02 pm
Then where the crap are we?!

My head hurts....
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Sep, 2005 05:13 pm
thunder_runner32 wrote:
Then where the crap are we?!


I don't know!


Quote:
My head hurts....


I understand it may seem that way...but it may all be an illusion....just as the "material" of this world may be.
0 Replies
 
thunder runner32
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Sep, 2005 05:35 pm
It is one convincing illusion....
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Sep, 2005 05:47 pm
RL wrote:
If you think there is realistically a third or fourth or fifth reasonable possibility then put it out there. If not, then throw in the towel, my friend, and admit that there are two: Matter was created, or it wasn't.

Then address the question which of the two could best account for all of the complexity and intricacy of design that we see in the universe, systems that function according to regulating principles and are predictable, many processes that are so complex that we barely understand the workings of them:

A) Eternally pre-existing matter and sheer blind chance

B) An incredibly intelligent Creator whose nature we cannot fully comprehend

Nonsense. Neither I nor anyone else knows what possibilities there may be. What today is commonplace was science fiction a generation ago, barely imagined a century ago, and inconceivable a millenium ago. As we live, we learn. As we learn, we learn there is yet more to learn, and we learn new ways to learn. Easy, comforting "answers" appeal to some, others are not so gullible, prefering instead to continue to learn. Striking boldly into the unknown is our purpose. Embracing the unknown, exploring it, learning from it, building on what we have learned in order to learn ever more, not fearing it, denying it, and mythologizing it, not building walls of dogma, doctrine, and tradition from behind which to hide from the unknown - that is what has driven humankind's ascent from the savannah into interstellar space and propells us beyond, always beyond - the next valley, across the next mouintains, across continents and oceans, to the moon and the planets and beyond, always beyond. Curiosity and inventiveness are the best of humankind, fear and superstition the worst.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Sep, 2005 05:50 pm
thunder_runner32 wrote:
It is one convincing illusion....


Wouldn't be much point to an unconvincing illusion, now would there? :wink:
0 Replies
 
thunder runner32
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Sep, 2005 05:55 pm
I guess not...

Quote:
Curiosity and inventiveness are the best of humankind, fear and superstition the worst.


Curiosity killed the cat, hopefully the man is too clever to kill himself with his quest for more knowledge.
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