djbt wrote:Gestalt wrote:Disasters happen because of sin. People die because sin was let into this world. Why do you think Hurricane Katrina happened? It's because of what we led sin onto this earth that disasters happen at all.
Let me get this straight:
1) Sin = defiance of God. (premise)
2) Hurricane Katrina is the result of sin. (premise)
3) Hurricanes Katrina is the result of the defiance of God. (from 1 and 2)
4) God kills people when he is defied (from 3)
RedRex - is that the good God or the bad God? It seems difficult to tell the difference...
God does not lift a finger people control the wind themselves and take the lives of the innocent with them...
God saves lives remember?
RexRed wrote:Frank Apisa wrote:Linkat wrote:D. Bartlett: "Nobody I know, even the most conservative, is saying homosexuals should be executed.
Well I can think of one "body" that does say homosexuals should be killed for their activities....the god of the Bible.
The god of the Bible is rather straight forward about its feelings in that regard. The god of the Bible says quite plainly that anyone engaging in such acitivity ought to be put to death. The god of the Bible quite plainly says that such activity is an "abomination."
That is a pretty important "body" to Christians and Jews...wouldn't you say?
Correction Frank... the GodS of the Bible...
2Co 4:4
In whom the god [theos] of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
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You will never understand Frank until you realize there are TWO Gods in the Bible... and only one TRUE God...
You seem to not be interested in the two Gods just throwing around bigoted statements. Adulterers were stoned as homosexuals too... they received an equal measure of punishment.
Where was mercy where was liberty where was grace in the OT?
They were tied up by the sins of Adam and Eve and it was the LORD Jesus Christ that redeemed, sanctified, justified and made us righteous so the the true God could reign supreme spiritually...
And of course...you know when each god is talking...so you can tell which passages belong to which god.
How very convenient.
I've asked you several times to explain how you know which god is talking. You've never really answered.
Why not do it now.
RexRed wrote:djbt wrote:Gestalt wrote:Disasters happen because of sin. People die because sin was let into this world. Why do you think Hurricane Katrina happened? It's because of what we led sin onto this earth that disasters happen at all.
Let me get this straight:
1) Sin = defiance of God. (premise)
2) Hurricane Katrina is the result of sin. (premise)
3) Hurricanes Katrina is the result of the defiance of God. (from 1 and 2)
4) God kills people when he is defied (from 3)
RedRex - is that the good God or the bad God? It seems difficult to tell the difference...
God does not lift a finger people control the wind themselves and take the lives of the innocent with them...
God saves lives remember?
No, I don't remember God saving any lives. When did He do that?
And how, exactly, do people control the winds? Control is a pretty strong word...
RexRed wrote:
And of course...you know when each god is talking...so you can tell which passages belong to which god.
How very convenient.
I've asked you several times to explain how you know which god is talking. You've never really answered.
Why not do it now.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
1Co 12:10 - Show Context
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
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Those born of the spirit of the one true God are given these manifestations to operate toward the profit of a more abundant life...
Joh 10:10 - Show Context
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
The criticism in the Bible of homosexuality appears to be aimed at temple homosexual practices, not homosexuality in general. That would make sense since the authors of Leviticus were trying to convert their people to a new type of religion.
http://www.worldpolicy.org/globalrights/sexorient/bible-gay.html
Quote:why don't you do a comparison of how many lives XXXXX organizations have saved because of their ideology versus how many lives Christian organizations have saved because of their beliefs. I'm willing to do this with you. You identify the XXXXX-professing organizations (of course, they must truly profess XXXXX as the root of their benevolence), and I will do the same for Christian organizations. Then we'll get estimates of lives saved and compare. What do you say, are you game?
Well, well, I see the typical Christian vanity and pride emerging. I don't know how many times I've heard Christians brag about how they have a monopoly on morality, charity and saving souls and lives.
No human can be happy until they find Christ.
No one can know morality, right from wrong, unless they are Christian.
No one cares about others unless they are believers in Christ.
All souls will be lost, wandering around in their misery and loneliness, until they find Christ.
I am a deist. I follow no religion. For me there is one God for all. It matters little to God what one's faith is. If it did he would not be any better than a prejudiced religious fanatic.
I don't believe in the Bible because I don't believe in a God that kills and slaughters innocent people. Blah, blah, blah...
God gives souls to all faiths and races. That's enough for me to see that God does not discriminate or play favorites. We are all equal in God's eyes and are treated equally, regardless of our faith or behavior. A lot of Christians, in their prideful beliefs, think they will be favored by God because of their faith. Perhaps they think they will be give a house by a street paved with gold and silver, hopefully not to close to one of the pearly gates as there will be a lot of traffic.
You like to think that atheist and agnostics don't care about morality, saving or helping people. Click on the sites below. There you will see that they care about helping people as much as any prideful Christian.
http://www.atheists.org/
http://www.infidels.org/
Where is this coming from? I never claimed Christians have a monopoly on morality, charity, or saving souls and lives.
All I said was that Christians have had a much greater beneficial impact on human society than any other religion or ideology (acts which far outweigh the few errant so-called Christians that have killed, persecuted, or tortured other Christians).
This thought is overdone on A2k so I won't respond. I have before in other threads if you're interested in my position.
Nice sentiment, but entirely illogical. So God doesn't discriminate between a serial rapist and Mother Theresa?!!!?? Your God is not a God, he's a mushroom...totally irrelevant, not worthy of being called a deity.
What does or did your diety ever do for anyone? Did he create us? Does he perform miracles? Does he participate in our lives in any way, shape or fashion?
...Are you suggesting these organizations provide as much money, people and time to help others as Christian relief organizations do?
No but people of your ilk have. This we are so much better then you theme is one I have always run across and your comments reek of it.
I think you had better take a closer look at your fellow Christians. It is they that point out mistakes in belief and errors in interpretation of the Bible of other Christians more vehemently and scornfully then agnostics and atheists.
Look at the history of your religion. See how many Christians have been persecuted, tortured and killed by other Christians because their belief did not agree with another's.
What beneficial impact?
So your God does discriminate? OK, which Christian God do you believe in. Some will send Mother Teresa to hell. There are so many Christian Gods out there it's difficult to speak to Christians because you don't know which God they created.
For me God is of pure love (and yes Frank, I know you don't buy this). What we do here on earth is something we will all have to relive when we return to God, regardless of what you have done or believed. The pain we give to others is the pain we will feel when we have our life review.
Hating someone and wanting to inflict torture and pain on them for whatever they have done here on earth is not a godly feeling but a human one, a feeling of hate, intolerance and vengeance. I know you love your barbaric, selfish, vengeful and jealous God but I expect something better then an angry human.
I acknowledge that morality is not exclusive of Christians, but you paint all Christians with a wide brush of "misinterpretation" and mutual "persecution, torture, and killing" of fellow Christians. Kind of the kettle calling the pot black, don't you think?
Shall I start with the 17,000,000 folks helped by the Salvation Army? Or the 70,000,000 helped each year by World Vision? Or the thousands helped by Mother Theresa's organization in India?
Your position seems somewhat self contradictory. You argue against a judging God, but readily admit that we will ourselves relive the pain we inflict on others while here on earth. Is this something we will voluntarily submit to and self-inflict?????
So your saying Hindus, Muslims and other non-Christian religions don't help others? My, but what ignorance and arrogance do we have here.
If all you know is the Christian religion then it makes sense that you would be ignorant of any other religion, their organizations and charities.
Again I see you taking the holier then thou position I see in many conservative Christians.
Life is a learning experience for our souls. We learn by our mistakes. When we feel the pain we caused others we see our mistakes. We learn and when we return we remember.
What we do here on earth is something we will all have to relive when we return to God, regardless of what you have done or believed. The pain we give to others is the pain we will feel when we have our life review.
It does sound a bit silly to claim that an all-powerful god wants all people to know it, yet not all people know it.
Then again, maybe it is true that such a god exists, and that knowledge of it is one desire it has, yet it is not the *ultimate* desire it has.
Or, maybe all people *do* know this god, yet they claim they don't.
Lots of possibilities.
I
Implicator wrote:
It does sound a bit silly to claim that an all-powerful god wants all people to know it, yet not all people know it.
Then again, maybe it is true that such a god exists, and that knowledge of it is one desire it has, yet it is not the *ultimate* desire it has.
Or, maybe all people *do* know this god, yet they claim they don't.
Lots of possibilities.
I
If God could be quantified, then He would not be Infinite, but finite.
If God could be empirically defined, catalogued and measured ( He = AxBxC ) then he would be no greater than any other thing in the universe.
However, all people have the knowledge of God available to them. The heavens and the earth show His handiwork and tell of His glory so that all are without excuse. But you are correct, Implicator, that they claim they don't know it.
Frank said.........Here is a passage from the Bible...it is the god of the Bible speaking to Moses:
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be
put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their
lives." Leviticus 20:13
I cannot speak for all agnostics and atheists...but most agnostics and atheists I know are of the opinion that this passage is clear and unambiguous. It indicates a facet of human behavior...identifies that behavior as repugnant to the god of the Bible...an "abominable deed"...and decrees that the penalty for such behavior should be death.
Frank you have to get over this thing you have about homosexuality and acting like it is the only sin God dislikes. He dislikes them all. The wages of sin (all of them) is death.
I took the following joke from the internet. Maybe it will help shed some perspective.
"The Bible contains six admonishments to homosexuals and 362
admonishments to heterosexuals. That doesn't mean that God doesn't
love heterosexuals. It's just that they need more supervision. (Lynn
Lavner)"
362!
The bible says we are all sinners. The bible says we need to confess our sin. We need to admit that we are sinners- not perfect- not in harmony with God.
I use the word imperfect, because that helps me understand how we should not be judgmental of others because we, like them, are imperfect too.
Okay so I know, Frank, you don't like that we are imperfect. If I recall correctly you said God shouldn't have made us imperfect. Well I don't know if he did make us imperfect. I heard a priest talking about this subject this morning and he used the words, in disharmony with God, and maybe that's better than saying we are imperfect- not so judgmental sounding. Maybe by saying we are imperfect it sounds like we somehow have to get perfect and that is impossible (in and of ourselves). Maybe what I need to say is we need to find harmony with God. The priest said that all christians are going to feel not right with God because of this disharmony (not just homosexuals).
Remember, Frank, I told you that the bible says love is the "fulfillment" of the law. It says love means no ill will towards others. In some ways acknowledgment that we are all sinners appears to accomplish just that. I feel that christianity isn't about being perfect, it isn't about being right. You have to let go of those things. Christianity is about growing in love and to do that you have to follow your conscience. I don't think God wants us living a lie. Be gentle, no ill will to others and no ill will toward yourself either. When I realized I could just let perfection go I can't tell you how wonderful that felt. I could just be human and so could others around me- no pious judgements. I could accept God's forgiveness. I feel love is letting go of those things that stand between you and God or you and others. As you grow in love and begin to find purpose for your life then those things that stand between you and God that seem so important or those things that seem like you can't possibly change will lose their importance and you will be able to just let them go. We don't have to beat ourselves or others up over them. Well that's what I feel. I'm no bible expert.
All I said was that Christians have had a much greater beneficial impact on human society than any other religion or ideology (acts which far outweigh the few errant so-called Christians that have killed, persecuted, or tortured other Christians).
You're putting words in my mouth. I never said that Hindus, Muslims, or other non-Christian religions don't help others. You questioned whether Christians had "beneficial impact".
a much greater beneficial impact on human society than any other religion or ideology.
So what is it? Do we relive pain during "our life review"? Or is it realtime in this life "when we feel the pain we caused others"?
