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Why Do Higher Gas Prices Anger You?

 
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2005 04:53 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Thats a fair question Thomas. The crucial word is "the timing". Hubbert got it bang on in predicting the peak of American (sub 47 parallel) oil. Oil companies and governments all say oil will peak, its just a question of when.

If we were having this discussion in the stone age, everything about that logic could be applied to stones. Stones are a finite resource, and people are using it to build houses. Ergo, stones will run out one day, the only question is when. And that's horrible because stones, remember, aren't just another commodity: They are the very foundation that the Stone Age civilization is built on! We have every reason to believe that thoughts like this would have sounded just as compelling to our elders 20000 years ago as the "running out of oil" thought sounds to you know.

So why didn't the world end up running out of stones? We don't have any historical evidence to answer that, but any price theory book can tell you the relevant economics: When the demand for a resource outruns its supply, the ensuing shortage encourages people to use it more sparingly, and to look for alternative resources. This requires effort by the individuals doing it. But seen from the higher levels of society -- the tribe level, the national level -- the process happens spontaneously, with no high-up intervention necessary. In the stone ages, for all we know, there never has been a government program to look for alternatives to stone. In the 19th century, William Stanley Jevons predicted that Britain would run out of coal in a matter of decades. Jevons was one of the most distinguished economists of his day, yet Britain has never run out of energy -- not even out of coal for that matter.

So will we be using oil forever? No, because we will find alternative energy sources, and economise on the ones we have. Will the process be traumatic? No -- because the relevant textbook economics tell us that the price of a finite resource, if set by profit-maximizing agents, will increase at the world's real interest rate, which currently fluctuates at about 3-4% per year. (For one webbed example of the standard textbook treatment, see David Friedman's Price Theory book. Scroll down about 1/3 of the page to the section "depleteable resources.") Will it take massive government intervention to develop those alternatives? If history is any guide, no. We have been "running out of" materials for centuries. Every time this happened, the scarcity of whatever we were running out of raised its price, and self-interest took it from there. This time might be different, but it would be a historical first if it was.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2005 05:10 am
Thomas wrote:
So why didn't the world end up running out of stones? We don't have any historical evidence to answer that, but any price theory book can tell you the relevant economics: When the demand for a resource outruns its supply, the ensuing shortage encourages people to use it more sparingly, and to look for alternative resources. This requires effort by the individuals doing it.


Well, yes, good example, can be carried on with iron, bronce ... . And water and wind ... :wink:
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2005 05:14 am
... potatoes (like, when Sir Charles Edward Trevelyan was warned that Ireland is too dependant on potatoes)
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2005 05:18 am
Well, potatoes.

Just thinking, how that would have effects to the use of potatoe guns.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2005 05:27 am
Actually, by the middle of the 19th century, many governments in Europe were buying food abroad, as food shortages were quite frequent. Trevelyan refused to do so. His opinion was basically the same as Thomas's here:

Thomas wrote:
When the demand for a resource outruns its supply, the ensuing shortage encourages people to use it more sparingly, and to look for alternative resources. This requires effort by the individuals doing it. But seen from the higher levels of society -- the tribe level, the national level -- the process happens spontaneously, with no high-up intervention necessary.


Just that his words were

Quote:
We attach the highest public importance to the strict observance of our pledge not to send orders (for food) abroad, which would come into competition with our merchants and upset all their calculations.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2005 05:28 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Well, yes, good example, can be carried on with iron, bronce ... . And water and wind ... :wink:

I have no problem with water and wind -- only with huge government programs forcing taxpayers to subsidize water and wind, on the claim that the world will run out of energy without those programs. This planet does not need government programs to prevent its running out of energy, any more than it nees them to stay within its orbit around the sun.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2005 05:37 am
Well, okay.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2005 06:54 am
old europe wrote:
Actually, by the middle of the 19th century, many governments in Europe were buying food abroad, as food shortages were quite frequent. Trevelyan refused to do so. His opinion was basically the same as Thomas's here:

By your account, Trevelyan is arguing for protectionist government intervention in the free food market to reduce the supply of that resource in his country. I don't see how this is "basically the same" as my argument, which is against government intervention in the free energy market that purports to expand the supply of resources but, I expect, won't.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2005 07:03 am
Wouldn't protectionist government intervention imply things like trade tariffs, subsidies towards domestic producers and the state buying domestic products instead of those of foreign competitors rather than what Trevelyan proposed, i.e. doing nothing?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2005 09:27 am
old europe wrote:
Wouldn't protectionist government intervention imply things like trade tariffs, subsidies towards domestic producers and the state buying domestic products instead of those of foreign competitors rather than what Trevelyan proposed, i.e. doing nothing?

Based on the three lines you quoted, I would have guessed that this is what he was about to suggest. I may have overextrapolated on the basis of insufficient context. Can you give some more?
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2005 10:06 am
old europe wrote:
Hydrogen myth? Well, I can see the cars, and I'm awake!

Sure, I'm aware that there are no hydrogen fields out there that we could tap or hydrogen ore that we could mine, thank you very much.

And yes, it's bound up in water. H2O. 2 hydrogen atoms, 1 oxygen atom.
But of course it's fairly easy and highly efficient (efficiency ratios close to 100%) to extract it from natural gas.

hint: -> Kværner Method


True enough. However more energy would be released and made practically available by simply burning the methane. The conversion process for producing free hydrogen consumes energy, no matter how it is done. Hydrogen is a usedul fuel in specialized applications, but it most certainly is not a source of energy.
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2005 01:08 pm
The internal combustion engine was invented in 1860. Were supposed to believe that with all the advancement in technology for some reason we just can't come up with anything better since 1862. Bulls**t. There is a reason why these advancements have not been used.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2005 02:20 pm
Multiplication, division, and modern arithmetics in general were invented in Arabia in the 8th century. We're supposed to believe that with all the advancement in mathematics for some reason we just can't come up with anything better than the 8th century. Bullsh*t. There is a reason why these advancements have not been used.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2005 03:04 pm
Amigo wrote:
The internal combustion engine was invented in 1860. Were supposed to believe that with all the advancement in technology for some reason we just can't come up with anything better since 1862. Bulls**t. There is a reason why these advancements have not been used.


Where have you been? Since 1860 (if that is the right year) IC engines have been improved in many ways, most yielding reduced fuel consumption at the same levels of power output. The Deisel cycle, developed early in the 20th century has a thermodynamic efficiency about 2% greater than that of the Otto cycle on which the earliest engines were based. Carburetors on IC engines have been replaced with direct fuel injection. Computer chips control the mixture delivered to the cylinders and the ignition timing, based on real time measured conditions, replacing the fixed mechanical devices that preceeded them. Aluminum blocks now replace much heavier cast iron blocks. Many engines today have controls to individually idle some cylinders when torque demand is low. All of these factors have very significantly improved the efficiency and power to weight ratio of modern IC engines.

Perhaps you are one of those who believes the oil companies are hiding an engine that runs on water.

All that said, I believe Thomas' point above hits the mark.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Oct, 2005 10:06 am
"Though I certainly would prefer a BMW to a Trabant - if I can only afford the latter, I'm pleased to have car. "

Thats a very wise statement Walter. What function does a car provide? Though I enjoy driving at 210 kph on German autobahns (being driven even better Smile), the functionality is the same with a Trabant or a Citroen 2cv.

Its like flashy watches. How much better is the time from a £6000 rolex?

We have imo to return to appreciation of function as opposed to fashion.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Oct, 2005 10:14 am
georgeob1 wrote:
hydrogen, while an interesting fuel for some special applications, is not itself a source of energy.


George is quite correct here.
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Oct, 2005 10:46 am
Steve
Steve wrote: "We have imo to return to appreciation of function as opposed to fashion."

I agree. Car manufactures understand the male mind and continue to produce sexy macho cars. It's like viagra cars. I'm not sure what the female mind wants because there is so little research available. But that may change as car manufactures are beginning to realize that women buy a lot of cars.

For myself, I've bought Volvos for years because of their safety in design and function. For many years, Volvo was the only car that aligned the gas and break pedals with the driver seat. Most American cars had them slightly angled to the right. Because I had to rent a lot of cars for my job, I got to try a lot of different cars. I soon learned that the cars that were not properly aligned caused me great pain due to spinal problems because of the slight waist twist required to drive. Volvos also had the best lumbar support in the seat backs, which was very important to me.

BBB
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Oct, 2005 10:55 am
Women purchase or lease 52.5% of all new vehicles and young guys in fact rarely buy new cars
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Oct, 2005 10:56 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
How much better is the time from a £6000 rolex?


I could imagine, George knows it :wink:
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Oct, 2005 11:11 am
the sport-utility market has become more of a woman's market than ever before. In fact, the rapid growth of truck and SUV sales in the U.S is due in large part to the increased number of women purchasing SUV's. Is it a question of women having the same God-given right to be road-hogging, gas-guzzling, accident-causing, environment-polluting assholes that men can be?

Apparently, yes.
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