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Where Are All The W.M.D.s?

 
 
satt fs
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2003 07:29 pm
dyslexia..
I did not say you were wrong at all.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2003 07:37 pm
I probably just picked up a dose of mad cow disease on my last sojourn.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2003 09:00 pm
I was in the UK last month. Didn't worry a bit. c.i.
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Mr Stillwater
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Apr, 2003 12:44 am
O.K. we'll get back to topic. The story has gone from an Iraq loaded to the hilt with centres manufacturing weapons and a massive number of rockets to deliver them to concrete evidence of zero. So they managed to dismantle and hide them since February, a concept that flies in the face of logic because they JUST FOUGHT A WAR. In a war you use weapons, if there really had been dispersed amongst Iraqi armed forces they would have been either used or captured.

So now the story is that there are mobile laboratories capable of producing the agents (but not able to deliver them). Or they were snuck out to Syria. Or they were destroyed. Christ, the Marines can manage to find $4 million dollars in greenbacks and a $1B in gold, but the can't find the equivalent of a factory (and a munitions factory at that).

Next step, the Workstations of Mass Destruction. We can't locate the actual items or the facilities, but there has to be records of such activity. So, looted computers have all the information, we need to find these before this information is used to create WMDs!
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Apr, 2003 04:38 am
Mr Still, We must use logic in defense and opposition on the question of WMD's in Iraq. As you say, the time line just doesn't fit the tons of WMD's that supposedly existed. As for those portable chemical labs, that's not the whole shoot'n match. They probably had both fixed and portable labs. Yes? The many problems proferred by Saddam are many. The first one was the 12,000 page declaration that only repeated what was available back in 1991-1998. The second problem was the unproven destruction of all their WMD's. The third problem was their claim that they had no WMD's. The fourth problem was the inability of the chemists, scientists, and engineers to speak freely. If it's true that many of their WMD's were destroyed several days before the war started, all Saddam needed to do was to broadcast that action to the world, and to let the UN inspectors to verify it. He didn't do that. Saddam also understood that the US and UK were preparing for military action very soon. Everybody in the world knew that the US and UK were preparing for military action very soon. The Iraqi army had gas masks at many locations throughout Iraq. Why? If they had no intention of using chemical or biological weapons, why did they have gas masks? Although I was against the preemptive attack on Iraq on the premise that Saddam's WMD's were under control by the UN inspectors, I still believe WMD's will be eventually found in Iraq. I think it's only a matter of time as more Iraqi's come forward to provide information on their WMD programs and hiding places. Finally, I still think it's best to wait before we come to any conclusions about Iraq's WMD program. c.i.
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frolic
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Apr, 2003 04:54 am
Why did the US soldiers had gasmasks? What what that plan to use riot control agents to attack Bagdad.

This war was never about WMD. Have you heard what Blix said this week? THe US deliberatly sabotaged and undermined the work of the inspectors. There is a saying in Dutch
"If you want to beat up a dog, its easy to find a stick."

Tell me, how can u destroy tons and tons, thousands and thousands of gallons? All products used in WMD. Without leaving a trace? Without 300.000 soldiers knocking on your back- and frontdoor. With satelites spying on you. With several thousands of special forces operating in the area? With CIA officers infiltrated,....

How is it possible to destroy that enormous stockpile of WMD, without leaving one single trace?

And one last question. IF they had WMD. Why didn't they use it to slaughter the Kurds? Why didn't they use it when the US soldiers passed the so-called red line?
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Apr, 2003 05:16 am
Real classy signature line there, Frolic.
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frolic
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Apr, 2003 05:42 am
snood wrote:
Real classy signature line there, Frolic.


Thanks :wink:

I guess people get the respect they deserve, dont they?
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Apr, 2003 06:16 am
(that boy's been drinking too much! nobody has that much pee available!)
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frolic
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Apr, 2003 04:21 am
An interesting article from The Times.

Reports of weapons 'greatly exaggerated' By Bronwen Maddox

Why have American and British Forces not found any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq? The most plausible answer is that there are none, in the true sense of the word, even though forces are likely eventually to come across some very unpleasant weapons created by Saddam Hussein.
But Tony Blair and President Bush cannot give this answer, as they asserted unambiguously that these weapons existed in justifying the war. So members of Blair's Cabinet and Bush's Administration have felt obliged to offer less plausible accounts of where the elusive weapons might be.

The most ambitious so far were put forward yesterday by Geoff Hoon, the Defence Secretary, in a fabulously implausible narrative which contradicated earlier statements by his Prime Minister, his colleagues and himself.

It is an understatement to say that the failure to find such weapons is an embarrassment for the British and American governments. Hans Blix, the chief United Nations weapons inspector, was always very careful to say that he was looking for weapons which were "unaccounted for", discrepancies between what Iraq could have produced and what it had declared.

Blix never said they definitely existed. But Blair, Bush and their henchmen stepped repeatedly over that line, particularly in the frenetic and ultimately unsuccessful attempts to secure the backing of a second UN resolution.

In particular, Blair presented Parliament with a "dossier" on September 24 last year, headlined Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction ?- The Assessment of the British Government. It said that "Intelligence has established beyond doubt . . . that Saddam has continued to produce chemical and biological weapons".

The most dramatic claim of the dossier, much publicised, was that Saddam's "military planning allows for some of the WMD (weapons of mass destruction) to be ready within 45 minutes of an order to use them".

You do not have to be a fan of BBC Radio's Today programme, or its breathlessly shrill style of interrogation, to concede that there is such a thing as a bad performance. Hoon delivered one yesterday in response to a shrewd series of questions, also the ones which any ordinary, interested person would ask first.

Top of that list is why the Saddam regime, facing annihilation, did not use weapons of mass destruction if it had them. According to Hoon, this is because the weapons were "scattered across Iraq (and) were well hidden" while UN inspectors were in the country.

But then they weren't ready to use in 45 minutes, surely? Hoon appeared unaware of this claim. "I do not recall ever saying that. I specifically did not put a time on it," he said.

No, he didn't say it, but his Government did, and the claim is central to Britain's justification for pressing ahead with the war. Hoon himself, just before the outbreak of war, made a speech that gave warning of the "very real threat today . . . of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction".

Hoon then alleges that the sudden onslaught of war disrupted command structures and prevented the weapons being reassembled. It didn't seem that sudden at the time. Several days passed between the departure of the UN inspectors and the start of the bombing. There was also a solid two weeks after the bombing started in which Iraqi command structures looked anything but shattered, to the point where Washington was grimly bracing itself for a long war.

Why, on Hoon's "well hidden" account, has nothing of significance been found, even though American forces have been in the country for more than a month? There is a limit to the number of possible hiding places. US Intelligence had identified about 150 sites worth investigation, and are already believed to have visited about half, according to analysts. Not one of these has yet yielded a "smoking gun".

On Hoon's account, the regime was organised and skilful enough to dismantle, transport and hide all these weapons beyond the detective skills of US forces, and yet so disorganised that it could not retrieve and deploy even one.

What about the chance that weapons have been smuggled out, to Syria, or sold to terrorists? This possibility has been gaining currency; it has been raised by David Kay, a former UN weapons inspector, and Alexander Downer, the Australian Foreign Minister, although citing reports he said he could not verify.

But that, too, is implausible. Smuggled out to Syria? Not likely. Damascus is certainly capable of making serious misjudgements, but knowingly allowing Iraq's banned weapons across its border would be only slightly short of accepting Saddam himself, a risk which no sane regime, looking at the American force camped in the region, would contemplate.

Could they have been sold to terrorist groups? It is unlikely that they would want them, or pay much for them. The kind of chemical or biological weapons Saddam is accused of making are needed in large quantities, say a tonne, to be of any use. They need complex, expensive and conspicuous delivery systems, such as aircraft equipped with sprays or missiles. Terrorists targeting subway trains or water supplies can make do with something far simpler, such as ricin.

The exception is weapons-grade uranium or plutonium. That is scarce, small in volume and easily hidden, and could be sold for a lot of money. But the nuclear part of the weapons programme is widely thought to have been the least developed; Saddam is not believed to have overcome the difficulty of buying or making weapons-grade material.

Gary Samore, director of studies at the International Institute of Strategic Studies, and an expert on Iraq's weapons programme, also questions the motivation. "If I were an Iraqi fleeing for my life, I'd take cash before bottles of liquid anthrax," he says. True, documents can be easily destroyed or transported, he says, but missiles are particularly hard to transport or conceal.

The most plausible account so far is the one given by Robin Cook, the former Foreign Secretary, in his resignation speech. This is that Iraq certainly made highly unpleasant weapons but not in large enough quantities or at a level of readiness to warrant the term "mass destruction".

"Iraq probably has no weapons of mass destruction in the commonly understood sense of the term ?- namely a credible device capable of being delivered against a strategic city target," he said.

"It probably still has biological toxins and battlefield chemical munititions, but it has had them since the 1980s when US companies sold Saddam anthrax agents and the then British Government approved chemical and munitions factories."

There is no question that Saddam's regime produced, and used, terrible weapons. The odds are that forces will uncover evidence of them. But this is a long way from the claims made in the run-up to war, or the accounts now offered about why the weapons remain so hard to find.

What they said about weapons of mass destruction:
Quote:
"If we know Saddam has weapons of mass destruction ?- and we do ?- does it make any sense for the world to wait to confront him?" "It (Iraq regime) possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons . . . we know that the regime has produced thousands of tons of chemical agents, including mustard gas, sarin nerve gas, and VX gas"
George Bush, October 7, 2002


Quote:
"We are dealing with a very real threat today, that of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction"
Geoff Hoon, March 10, 2003


Quote:
"His (Saddam Hussein's) regime has large, unaccounted-for stockpiles of chemical and biological weaponsand he has an active programme to acquire and develop nuclear weapons"
Donald Rumsfeld, January 20, 2003


Quote:
"Every statement I make today is backed up by sources, solid sources. These are not assertions. What we're giving you are facts and conclusions based on solid intelligence.

"In fact, they (Iraqi regime) can produce enough dry biological agent in a single month to kill thousands upon thousands of people. "Saddam Hussein has never accounted for vast amounts of chemical weaponry: 550 artillery shells with mustard, 30,000 empty munitions, and enough precursors to increase his stockpile to as much as 500 tons of chemical agents. If we consider just one category of missing weaponry, 6,500 bombs from the Iran-Iraq war. . . Our conservative estimate is that Iraq today has a stockpile of between 100 and 500 tonnes of chemical-weapons agent. Even the low end of 100 tonnes of agent would enable Saddam Hussein to cause mass casualties across more than 100 square miles of territory, an area nearly five times the size of Manhattan"
Colin Powell, address to the UN Security Council, February 5, 2003


Quote:
"It is right (going to war) because weapons of mass destruction, chemical, biological and nuclear weapons, are a real threat to the security of the world and this country"
Tony Blair, House of Commons, January 15, 2003


Quote:
"What I believe the assessed intelligence has established beyond doubt is that Saddam has continued to produce chemical and biological weapons, and that he has been able to extend the range of his ballistic missile programme.

His (Saddam Hussein's) military planning allows for some of the WMD to be ready within 45 minutes of an order to use them."
Tony Blair, Foreword to Iraq "dossier"
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 May, 2003 01:13 pm
Well, it's been nearly a month since the last post to this thread, and I just thought everyone would like to know that our troops have been verrrry busy looking for the WMDs (but not very lucky finding them):

Quote:
BAGHDAD, May 18 ?- For once the team found a building intact.

The low stucco structure, one of several walled off from the street, was the 17th target of the war for Army Lt. Col. Charles Allison and the special weapons hunters under his command. Heavy crossbars sealed the doors. That, at least, was encouraging. There would not have been much left to lock if looters got here first.

U.S. intelligence called this place "Possible SSO Facility Al Hayat," after the Special Security Organization of President Saddam Hussein. It ranked No. 26 on a U.S. Central Command priority search list. Allison's team pulled up in six Humvees, not long before noon on May 1, to scout for biological and chemical arms.

"Go get the breach kit," ordered Army Maj. Kenneth Deal, second in command. A soldier returned with bolt cutters, a crowbar and a sledgehammer. Deal carried a digital camera. Army Sgt. 1st Class Will T. Smith Jr. and Navy Petty Officer 1st Class Shawn Anderson wielded chemical sensors that looked like oversized power drills. Smashing padlocks and deadbolts, the men checked for booby traps as they felt their way by flashlight from room to room. They reached a murky stone passage, smelling of mold. Cement covered its windows. Steel doors, a dull orange, lined the hall.

One last bolt snapped. The door creaked open and Deal stepped through.

There, in the innermost chamber, he found a cache of vacuum cleaners.

So it goes for Site Survey Team 3, which today begins its ninth week in the hunt for illegal weapons. One of four such units assembled before the war, it has screened intelligence leads from Basra to Baghdad with discouraging, even darkly comic, results. Team 3's odyssey through Iraq is a tale of frustration and disillusionment.

Allison's 25 men and women have dug up a playground, raided a distillery, seized a research paper from a failing graduate student and laid bare a swimming pool where an underground chemical weapons stash was supposed to be.


An Odyssey of Frustration in Iraq
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 May, 2003 01:22 pm
Maybe, the ought to have some more pratcise .... and look for a car, something like John Kelso suggests in the Austin American Statesman
Call the feds! I can't find my Honda!

Thanks for the update, btw, PDiddie!
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steissd
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 May, 2003 01:29 pm
There is an interesting link provided By James Morrison on another thread. A very non-standard version of answer to a question that appears in the title of the current thread: http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=211779&highlight=#211779
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Vietnamnurse
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 May, 2003 02:01 pm
And now according to a NYTimes/CBS News Poll conducted between May 9 and 12 2003, it doesn't matter to the majority of Americans POLLED(don't know how many and what methods and can't bring up online).

"Victory in Iraq, Even Without Saddam and Weapons:

If Saddam Hussein is not captured or killed, then do you think the US will have won the war in Iraq, or not?

Will have won the war...56%
Will not have won.........37%
No Answer.....................7%

If the United States and its allies never find any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, then do you think the war against Iraq will have been worth the loss of American life and other costs of attacking Iraq, or not?

Worth it........................56%
Not worth it...................38%
No Answer......................6%"

This all from page two of The Week in Review of the New York Times today.

I think if this poll is correct, and I think it is suspect, the American people that fall for this nonsense are dunderheads. The slope is getting very slippery indeed towards fascism.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 May, 2003 02:05 pm
Vietnamnurse wrote:

I think if this poll is correct, and I think it is suspect, the American people that fall for this nonsense are dunderheads. The slope is getting very slippery indeed towards fascism.


Which was somehow to expect, wasn't it?
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steissd
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 May, 2003 02:09 pm
Fascism? Heavens forbid! If the USA really was a fascist (or a Communist) country, then Vietnamnurse would not be able not only to express her opinion online, but even to get online at all. Or, the number of accessible sites would be restricted by some law enforcing agency.
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Vietnamnurse
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 May, 2003 02:14 pm
Yes, indeed, Walter. I have been noting the progression of this for some time since Bush was appointed president. Nothing that has happened has changed my views or fears for my country. I learned a long time ago to question authority and to clarify, clarify, clarify. This most secretive administration lies to us daily and people do not question?
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Vietnamnurse
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 May, 2003 02:16 pm
For now, Steissd...this is the beginning. If Patriot Act II were to be brought about, who knows what would happen to us who question? Professor Niemoller of Germany did not question until they carted him away, remember? Always question the government.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 May, 2003 02:18 pm
I personally don't think so , but I can understand people, who compare the momentary situation in the US to that in Germany in the 30's.
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Vietnamnurse
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 May, 2003 02:26 pm
Walter, we had the main media in this country cheering on the war in Iraq...people who do not go online or to the BBC for news were getting fed news from CNN, Fox, MSNBC, and the main networks ALL corporate owned that this war was just wonderful. They didn't want to show the Iraqi dead and wounded, God forbid we should see what our weaponry does!

I was listening to the radio the other morning...we have at least one liberal radio station YET left! Amy Goodman of Democracy Now had a great line..."If Hitler had had TV and the major media, just think of what he could have accomplished!"

Most people in this country do not have the time we have to read and digest the news. I am saying we are ripe for something and if it ain't fascism, it ain't good!
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