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Where Are All The W.M.D.s?

 
 
CodeBorg
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2003 06:00 pm
We're starting to repost the same articles in slightly different contexts.

Seems maybe ... we should have a single reference list maintained somewhere?
A webpage or a reference thread perhaps, that contains all our favorite links ...
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2003 06:00 pm
From Ray McGovern, a CIA analyst for 27 years


Quote:
...But where was the evidence? It is now clear that the only thing available at that time was the so-called argument from aluminum tubes. There had been reports of Iraq trying to procure them from abroad, and those eager to please the White House offered instant "analysis" that the tubes were for Iraq's "nuclear program." Thus, Dr. Rice on Sept. 8, 2002 told Wolf Blitzer that "Saddam Hussein is actively pursuing a nuclear weapon. We do know that there have been shipments into Iraq of aluminum tubes that really are only suited to nuclear weapons programs."
But when the engineers and scientists at US nuclear labs were consulted, their virtually unanimous conclusion was that the tubes were not suitable for a nuclear application. So that line of argument turned out to be as weak as the chemical and biological weapons evidence about which DIA analysts were so suspicious.
What was left? Someone remembered the forged correspondence between Iraq and Niger, decided that it could be used to win the vote in Congress, to win the war in Iraq, and in the afterglow of victory, no one would care that the evidence was bogus.
It worked.
Small wonder that Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), in a March 17 letter to the president, expressed outrage at having been deceived into voting for war, since "the evidence cited regarding Iraq's efforts to obtain nuclear weapons is a hoax."
http://www.counterpunch.org/
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Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2003 06:00 pm
GOP Rejects Formal Probe of Iraq Intel
By KEN GUGGENHEIM

WASHINGTON (AP) - Congressional Republicans on Wednesday rejected Democratic calls for a formal investigation into intelligence on Iraq's weapons programs, contending that such a probe could harm intelligence agencies' work.

The majority Republicans said routine oversight by Congress' Intelligence and Armed Services committees will be adequate to evaluate intelligence findings that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. Those findings served as the basis for the war on Iraq, but no such weapons have been found.

The inability of Democrats and Republicans to agree on an inquiry deepens partisan divisions in an area with potential consequences in the 2004 election: whether prewar intelligence on Iraq was inaccurate or had been manipulated to make the case for war.

Republican lawmakers say there is no evidence of wrongdoing and an investigation would suggest ``there's something dreadfully wrong and you're going to have to set things straight,'' said Sen. Pat Roberts, chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee. http://channels.netscape.com/ns/news/story.jsp?idq=/ff/story/0001/20030611/202340238.htm
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McGentrix
 
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Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2003 06:00 pm
Another opinion...Edit to add link

Quote:
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2003 06:00 pm
Dear President Bush -- Why did you cite forged evidence about Iraq's nuclear capabilities?

Quote:
The Honorable Condoleezza Rice
Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs
The White House
Washington, DC 20500
Dear Dr. Rice:
Since March 17, 2003, I have been trying without success to get a direct answer to one simple question: Why did President Bush cite forged evidence about Iraq's nuclear capabilities in his State of the Union address? ... [From Congressman Henry Waxman, 6/10/03]
http://www.tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/8069



Gee, I didn't know they were forged.

Quote:
A key component of President Bush's claim in his State of the Union address last January that Iraq had an active nuclear weapons program -- its alleged attempt to buy uranium in Niger -- was disputed by a CIA-directed mission to the central African nation in early 2002, according to senior administration officials and a former government official. But the CIA did not pass on the detailed results of its investigation to the White House or other government agencies, the officials said.
The CIA's failure to share what it knew, which has not been disclosed previously, was one of a number of steps in the Bush administration that helped keep the uranium story alive until the eve of the war in Iraq, when the United Nations' chief nuclear inspector told the Security Council that the claim was based on fabricated evidence. [Washington Post, 6/12/03] http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A46957-2003Jun11?language=printer



But wait a minute, yes you did! You and your State Department knew all about it!

Quote:
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2003 03:41 pm
Quote:
Surely all this, plus the grisly digging that still goes on in Saddam's killing grounds, is justification enough for the U.S.-led war that rid the world of a very evil and dangerous regime.


Overturning a dictator and saving his people may well justify A war. But that's another matter. The justification for entering THIS "US-led" war, the reason Congress went along with THIS war, the legal basis for THIS war, turns out to have been an elaborate series of lies. Lying is not only bad, it's against the law; it's betraying the Constitution (which Bush has sworn to uphold). Lying to Congress and to the people in order to get your way as president is against the law. Lying to allies in order to get them to work with you is very, very bad for the country's future as part of a larger community. Lying is a habit with some people. Look at Bush's record -- his life has been built on a series of lies, already discussed (with links galore) above and in other forums.
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Acquiunk
 
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Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2003 05:02 pm
I would not consider the Washington Times to be a reliable source, but my standards are not everyone's and the article does make a valid point. The Hussein regime was very bad and to call it cutthroat is an understatement. But on every other point the article is wrong. The evidence Lambro has presented has either been disproved or is hotly debated. Members of, not critics of, the intelligence community are stating flatly that intelligence reports were falsified for political purposes. There may have been good reasons for removing Hussein given his record on human rights. But the United States, and particularly this administration, has traditionally not used that reason as an excuse for initiating a war. It is increasingly evident that the reasons we went to war with Iraq were falsified to justify that war. In effect the nation and the world was lied to. The rest of the world, particularly our traditional allies will remember this and we will pay the consequences in lost prestige, power and national safety. Having cried wolf once we will be closely examined if we do so again, and the next time it may be for real.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2003 05:10 pm
Acq, Sort of like the terrorist warnings we've been having since 9-11. Yellow, orange, red, yellow, red,.......lost count. c.i.
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Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2003 05:10 pm
This point may have already been raised in this thread--I'm not prepared to wade through 31 pages of discourse right now--but: The rationale for Operation Iraqi Freedom was that it was part of the omnibus War on Terrorism, right? And the so-called weapons of mass destruction were supposedly evidence of Saddam's links with terrorists like Osama and/or evidence of what he would do if he had half a chance.

Both claims--links to terrorists and WMDs--now seem bogus. The first always seemed fraudulent and now the second seems to be, as well.

The fact that Saddam is an evil dictator is beside the point. If that's now being cited as the rationale for the war, then we were lied to. And are still being lied to.
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cicerone imposter
 
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Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2003 05:41 pm
Seems the 'evidence' is piling up against this administration's justifications for this war. The unfortunate fact of the matter is that most Americans don't care. c.i.
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dyslexia
 
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Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2003 05:58 pm
"Our conservative estimate is that Iraq has stockpiles of between 100 and 500 tons of chemical weapons agent ... enough to fill 16,000 battlefield rockets," Secretary of State Colin Powell said in his prewar speech at the United Nations.
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Booman
 
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Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2003 07:29 pm
And Powell is an honorable man. Rolling Eyes

(Hmm...This could be the work of David Copperfield.)
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edgarblythe
 
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Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2003 08:01 pm
Cassius was the honorable one, or so I thought.
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snood
 
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Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2003 08:03 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Seems the 'evidence' is piling up against this administration's justifications for this war. The unfortunate fact of the matter is that most Americans don't care. c.i.


Yeah, how'd that happen? Where did the national malaise come from; the feeling (and I'm affected as much as anyone) that "I know things are f-ed up, but I really can't bother to care"? It's scary, really- sort of like one of those dreams from which you can't awaken.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2003 08:17 pm
from the Christian Science Monitor:

""Whether or not they find weapons of mass destruction doesn't matter, because the rationale for the war changed," Republican pollster Frank Luntz told the Associated Press. "Americans like a good picture. And one photograph of an Iraqi child kissing a US soldier is more powerful than two months of debate [about WMD] on the floor of Congress."
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edgarblythe
 
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Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2003 08:45 pm
It's the same old "I see Bush being a f-up, but the media and general public see a dedicated public servant."
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2003 09:43 pm
It's scary all right. We can't only not trust our government, but also our people. c.i.
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Mr Stillwater
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jun, 2003 01:31 am
McG - glad you used the word 'opinion' for that's all that is op-ed.

Lots of bodies in mass graves, presumably Iraqis. Then, a report by two eyewitnesses of one incident, obviously these are the victims of Saddam's regime. Bit of a leap there.

If they are all regular or conscripts who refused to go into battle and were slaughtered then it would be pretty obvious, they would have uniforms on. Ans are they, in fact, all men? Maybe they are Saddam loyalists killed in reprisals. Maybe is was the disposal of Iraqi casulties from clashes with Coalition troops. There were any number of ways to end up dead in Iraq during that time, and nobody in charge of tallying up white hats vs black hats. He's piling up these charges a bit too easily, a technique called 'shoe-horning'.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jun, 2003 06:08 am
Fact is, though, the reason for starting a war has to be articulated BEFORE you head out to battle.

If "the reason" turns out to be a dud, it is not considered polite among the warring community to say "well....we had other reasons too."
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jun, 2003 07:38 am
Daniel Henniger says the present debate of Iraqi WMDs is absurd … and will remain so until the fate of Saddam Hussein is known.

Quote:
Where's the 'Intelligence'?
The strange postwar debate over Iraqi weapons.

BY DANIEL HENNINGER
Friday, June 13, 2003 12:01 a.m. EDT

To sustain one's belief in democracy, one has to think that every public debate, no matter the motive, can produce some residue of useful information. As the late aficionado of strategic facts, Albert Wohlstetter, once remarked during a dinner discussion of the global-warming debate, "At least we will learn something about the weather." And so it may be with the argument now over whether George W. Bush "overstated" Saddam Hussein's possession of weapons of mass destruction to justify the Iraq war.

But before exploring the debatable, a point about what should be obvious. We won't learn the details of Saddam's WMD program until the scientists who worked on it tell us. Mikhail Gorbachev didn't reveal the details of his country's WMD program; the Soviet Union's weapons scientists did.

Ahmed Chalabi of the Iraqi National Congress party told the Journal's editors at our offices this week, as he did others, that he, like many people in Iraq, believes Saddam is alive in the country and directing the attacks on Americans by Baath loyalists. From the AP yesterday: "Anecdotal evidence such as large amounts of cash seized during arrests of militants suggests that someone is paying the militants to attack U.S. troops, said Sgt. Brian Thomas, an Army spokesman in Baghdad."

If you privately ask authoritative U.S. officials about Saddam's disposition, they will say, "We don't know." And despite the war's victory, many Iraqis persist in believing that the U.S., in frustration, will depart before nailing closed every possible window of re-entry for Saddam. Iraq's scientists won't talk unless they believe Saddam is dead and gone. They don't believe that, so in the search for his WMDs, we are on our own.

As to the debate, what exactly is the argument about? Is it about the quality of U.S. intelligence itself (we learned a lot about that on September 11), or is about whether the war in Iraq was justified, or a fraud?
The core of the debate seems to be whether the prewar intelligence estimates meant that Saddam "had" WMDs or whether they "suggested" he had them; or whether Iraq's dual-use technologies (which no one disputes) "could" be diverted to WMD production, rather than "were" in fact being diverted. From this it presumably follows that if Sen. Carl Levin's hoped-for "investigation" into the Bush intelligence recommendations found they were suggestive, rather than conclusive, then the war was unjustified. And if this isn't the argument, why are we wasting our time on such casuistry other than for the expectable reasons of petty partisanship? Tony Blair has merely re-established Britain as the pre-eminent European military power, so clearly his own problems with this subject derive from factions that want nothing to do with military power.

We don't have access to those intelligence estimates, but you don't need them to be able to form an intelligent opinion about the basis for invading Iraq. Anyone can do that by visiting the Web site for UNSCOM, the U.N. inspection force.

In its first report, issued in October 1991, under U.N. Security Council Resolution 687, UNSCOM's inspectors said: "Conclusive evidence that Iraq was engaged in an advanced military biological research programme has been collected. No evidence of actual weaponization has been found, but the inspections have provided a sound database for future monitoring of biological capabilities in Iraq. Details are given in appendix IV."

Please read the nine other reports on Iraq's WMD program issued under UNSCR 687 until December 1995. And read the eight reports under UNSCR 715 between April 1992 and October 1995; and finally UNSCR 1051's eight reports from April 1996 till October 1999, the year after Saddam kicked the U.N. out of Iraq.

Presumably this mountain of U.N. on-site inspections, in public for any serious person to spend a week reading, may be regarded as a subset of the Bush fraud and fiction now being intimated about the U.S. intelligence estimates. Leaving aside their overwhelming evidence of Saddam's WMD programs, the constant theme across nine years' inspecting is Iraq's unrelenting refusal to cooperate.

That policy of refusal culminated, this past November, in U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441, the one France got from George Bush, with which Saddam also refused to comply. France and Germany then asked for the fifth inspections resolution since the process began back in 1991 when the first team found "conclusive" evidence of an advanced biological weapons program. Instead, we went to war.

The proponents of this current thesis, that the war's basis has damaged U.S. "credibility," are the same people who since 1991 have been willing to move the goal posts constantly downfield for Saddam Hussein, a proven proliferator of WMD who should have been ousted when a premature cease-fire was declared in February 1991, or anytime in 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995 and in every month that he was up and running--until March 2003. Now he, and his WMD proliferation nightmare are gone. Good.

Specialists have argued for years that the "global community" did not have a system of intelligence gathering and enforcement procedures equal to the threat of WMD proliferation. Even if it did, there remains the classic question that Fred Ikle put to this same global community in 1961 about Soviet arms in an article titled, "After Detection, What?" France offered the answer on Iraq--"nothing."
What North Korea has taught us, as regards nuclear proliferation, is that once a nation's nuclear-reprocessing capability goes critical, military action is virtually impossible. Whatever the policy differences, no serious person disagrees that Saddam going back to the 1980s was using his vast oil revenue and the proliferation network to acquire a radiological and biological weapons capability. After the documentary evidence of 12 years of inspections, after September 11, the Bush presidency arrived at that thin space for decision which exists before military action becomes impossible. Past that point, you just live with it. Now we don't have to.

Mr. Henninger is deputy editor of The Wall Street Journal's editorial page. His column appears Fridays in the Journal and on OpinionJournal.com.

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