Should we handle victory the way the Christian god decrees?

Intrepid... again, respectfully and with kindness...

You have read what I written but you have not "studied" it till it made sense...

Yes, I mean exactly that we have to forgive Jesus and God...

Look at Frank... do you think he has forgiven God? What about those who re-crucify Christ daily...

If a person professes faith on his/her deathbed and God chooses to grant holy spirit to them that is God's choice not yours/our own.

It is the spirit that makes us holy not the works of the flesh... God knows the heart...

You should realize it is "usually" futile to argue with me because I know my Bible... You would do better to reread over and over what I have written until it clicks. It will too...

You first error is applying what Jesus spoke to the Jews in the gospels and confusing it with what is written concerning the "gift" of the holy spirit, within, addressed to the church AFTER Pentecost.

Remember even with Jesus Christ in their presence "the world" of his day and the devil crucified the lord of glory... Yet the church has Christ "IN" them not just in our presence...

There are MANY things that have changed from the gospel logic and the Epistle logic. This is due to the presence and internal reality of the comforter that has come to the church only. Remember Jesus Christ did not even send his disciples to "the world" until the last page of the four gospels on the day of the ascension.

You are not seeing the shift from the gospel logic TO the epistle logic.

The gospels were based on works because they were still under the law because Jesus needed to be judged by the law... But after the holy spirit came we became FREE from the sins of Adam and emancipated by the works of Christ, the second Adam, who is "within" us (believers) now. We are free indeed....

The gospel people did not have Christ within them the had him in their presence... We have the authority to cast out devils by "the ministry of reconciliation". We are as Christ present in the flesh. The Gospel people certainly did not have this authority... Look at how weak Peter was before Pentecost...

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Comment:
People have erroneously thought this scripture means for us to confess our sins to Jesus... but no! It is saying we have to confess the lord Jesus from sin... We have to make HIM lord in our hearts. Not attempt to make ourselves a lord. We have to wipe the male spit off of his face and take him down from the cross and place him at the right hand of God.

That is not work... Now work is being beat beyond recognition as a human... and sodomized by Roman guards for 36 hours then dragged though town and repeatedly spit upon then nailed to a cross and hung there to die innocent but shamefully for the worlds redemption...

Christ suffered so we don't have to. Christ died so we could live. Christ wept so we could have joy... Christ was judged so we could have liberty. We were crucified with Christ.. We died with Christ. We were buried with Christ we "WERE" judged with Christ. We were raised with Christ and we are now seated in heavenly places in glory with Christ Jesus. The Gospel people did not have this...

The Gospels were not addressed to the church. It is like reading a letter addressed to someone else and taking it as if it was a directive to you. For instance.. If someone wrote a letter to a friend of yours and told them to meet them at a certain time and place and you took the letter and stood waiting for them there you might miss them... Because you are unaware that this person called your friend on the telephone and changed plans at the last minute. The epistles are addressed to you and if there are any changes you will get a call personally.

Jesus said to his apostles all through the gospels until up to the very end to go NOT unto the gentiles/church but to go ONLY unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel(Jews)? The Bible also says there is only Jew, Gentile and church of God... (only THREE distinct groups of people) Are you of the lost sheep of the house of Israel or of the the church of God? Then you should read the epistles "addressed" to the church for revelation and not be mixing up messages with letters that are not addressed "TO' you but written only "FOR" your/our learning. This is where your confusion is evident.

Yes 2000 years ago "holy" spirit became available to all who do one simple thing... Believe. Are you going to judge God for saving someone on their death bed? Isn't that God's choice? Doesn't God know their heart.

There is only one unforgivable sin. That unforgivable sin is.... "NOT receiving the "seed" of God"....

It is not mass murder... it is not homosexuality, pedophilia, mother killers, abortion... It is not rape, drug use or sorcery... It is rejecting the "seed" of God. Why is that unforgivable? Because the seed remaineth...

Your earthly father put seed in you and you cannot change that. He will always be your "earthly" father till the day you die. God did better...

You may have had another man raise you but you are still your fathers son... Likewise when God puts the new birth "seed" in us (born again) it cannot be changed... it is there for eternal life. (spiritual seed as opposed to physical seed) Though we are sometimes raised by the devil and our minds can sometimes become corrupted we are still God's sons.

God looks to this seed which is perfect and eternal. So, behold what manner of love the father hath bestowed upon us that we should be called the "sons" of God... So to receive the "seed" of the devil is unforgivable because it is "seed" and cannot be changed... the seed remaineth...

Get your books straight and you will free your mind of your confusion. You are looking at you own works rather than giving God credit for the creation he has placed in you... And yes, 2000 years later we are still living off of the grace and mercy that was bought and paid for in full by the blood of our precious lord and savior Christ Jesus. If you realize this you will find moderation in your life and you will not worry so much. I call it "sin consciousness"... avoid it at all costs.. Yes, have a conscience but stay your mind on the "holy" spirit within...

It is NOT so much how God sees the external part of you which is you own making. Adore the perfect internal reality and presence of the holy spirit that is created after true holiness and thus find the peace and righteousness of God. God does not want us to get perfect before he will help us. He helps us so we can learn from his love and will. In seeing God's love we pattern and imitate his image and others are drawn to the light created within...

If you recognize that GOD is the one in which we glory in, then your heart and attitude will follow suit...

If I ask you... Are you perfect? And you answer no... then you are identifying YOURSELF with the person on the outside (the flesh)... If you answer yes! Then you are identifying yourself with the created "gift" of holy spirit on the inside... This gift on the inside cannot sin, it cannot be "slain" and it is eternal... So rejoice and thank the father for his grace and mercy through Christ Jesus... God knows a thankful heart and he will reward you for this...

Peace with God

Rex,

What is it that man has to forgive Jesus/God for? What has Jesus/God done to sin against man?

Now, yes, in order for man to move on when angry at someone they must forgive them. However, man forgiving man is one thing. Man forgiving God is another. God has done nothing wrong in which to need OUR forgiveness.

Consider a man consigned to eternal hell by God simply because the man was honestly mistaken. Now consider this man, through clenched teeth and gnawed tongue, forgiving God for doing this to him.

Would the whole scheme collapse on itself right there?

No, I am sorry tycoon, but IMO it would not collapse on itself.

God is perfect and without flaw or sin. Man is imperfect and is flawed and is with sin.

God created man. Man did not create God.

Man may feel within himself that he needs to forgive God or that God should be forgiven. That does not mean that God DOES need to be forgiven. God is without sin or flaw.

Rex... I did read what you wrote. I "studied" it but it did not make total sense to me. You seem to want me to "study" it until I agree with you. On some points, I will never agree.

We read the same bible, but do not understand it the same. I suppose that is why we have so many different religious denominations and even disagreement within them.

Do I think Frank has forgiven God? Why would he do that? What has God done that requires forgiveness. Frank is not sure even if there is a God so why would he forgive anything? I would hope, however, that he can forgive his fellow man.

Of course, it is God's choice as to whether he grants grace to the man on his sickbed. I didn't say any different. I only said that it is taking a great risk to do so.

I agree about the spirit. Romans 5:5 tells us "Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us."

You wrote:


You seem to set yourself upon a lofty place, my friend. Saying that it is futile to "argue" with you either means that you are the only authority on the subject and, therefore, always right. Or you are wrong. Those in lofty places should be careful that they do not fall.



My error? No, Sir, I do not feel that I am in error (though it is possible just as it is possible that you are in error). I do not think I am confused at all. I have read both pre and post Pentecost and have not forgotten Revelation.

You state that there are many things that are changed. The doctrine does not change. God does not change. Only man changes.

So, we got a free pass to pass go and to collect our ticket to heaven?



Matthew 12:31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men."

Mark 3:28-29 "Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter, but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation."

Luke 2:10 "And anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but to him who blasphemies against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven."

Take your pick, Rex.

Rather than take up more bandwidth replying to the rest of your points, I will just say this.

Based on your beliefs and my beliefs, I would say that if you are wrong you may miss out on eternity. If I am wrong, I will at least end up in eternity based on your beliefs. Either way, I win. Oh, not this discussion....that is a moot point in the scheme of things. What I will win is a greater opportunity for life everlasting.

How do you make the leap from Jesus wants all to be saved, and a belief in eternal life is the essence of the gospel, to the conclusion that there is work involved?




Yes, definitely hard to do. However, the primary thing we are called to do (at least according to the Bible) is to love God first and foremost - it is the "greatest commandment", as I recall.



Just for the fun of it, where does the Bible say we have free will?




Why do you think these 2 passages support your contention that "everything we do as good and evil are counted"?




OK, but now you have lost that air of certainty, as you have used the word "seems" as it relates to the idea of everyone going to Heaven. Does that mean you aren't completely sure? IOW, is it possible that all will go to Heaven?

I

Nah, a theist vs theist version of pascalls wager, can't wait to see how this plays out.

Much of what I say to people is based on "testimony" of my life and not just something that I am quoting or spouting from memory... Yes we all need to "forgive" God and Jesus...

A story...

When I was twelve years old My twenty-three year old brother bought an old school bus and did the necessary repairs and got the thing on the road and turned it into a living conservatory where he would drive out to lone roads and pull out his telescope equipment and peer our at the stars... He was a graduate of UMA in physics and was a child prodigy... Our family looked up to him as both a person of immense personality and knowledge. He was a poet and a dreamer... I find this difficult to even recall...

Well one night out in north Conway NH heading toward the White Mountains his bus hit a pothole and slid on it's side burst into flames and he burnt to death... Witnesses to the accident heard him inside screaming and heard his dog barking. They both perished in by fire and we received a visit that evening from the state police.. This being the first born son of my father it struck my father so hard that he never shed a tear. My mother turned pale as a ghost as she came in and shut the TV off and told us the horrible news.

I could go on about how it turned my family from a proud functional family into a dysfunctional nightmare... We all went on our own search for ANSWERS... WHY God? WHY!!!!!!

These are the answers that I have heard you all asking in this thread and many many others..

So time went on and my family NEVER completely healed from this... I am twice his age and he is still my older brother... He knew something that was too much for the world to contain...

At the time we had converted from the Lutheran religion to the Congregational religion. There was not a Lutheran church that far up north in Maine. Our family had been faithful church goers including my deceased brother. My whole town showed up for his funeral and the next year the high school yearbook was dedicated to him...

So in reflection of my brothers death my family became superstitious.. I watched spiritualism creep into their hearts because of their inability to understand the question of why... Why such a horrible way to go for such a kindred soul?

Then one day in seeking solace my family was in church assembled together in reverence to God and the minister at the time made this remark... IT WAS GOD'S WILL...

I accepted this on face value... after all he was a studied seminarian and he would know theses types of things.

But... as the years went by I slowly moved away from God and I never actually had wondered why... By the time I reached eighteen years old I was ready to check out... I had my death planned and had made all of the preparations on how things were to be carried out after I was gone...

I did not realize that because I "believed" that this was God's will that deep inside a resentment had grown within me until I no longer loved God or myself... I could think back before my brothers death in Sunday school learning about Jesus and how I love Jesus so very much. How God had been a place to go and sit alone in solitude and have talks and, God was my friend...

But it only took the words "it was God's will" to slowly over time bring me to a hatred of God that brought me to considering the ledge of a bridge...

In the process spiritualism had crept into my life. I now was an Egyptian oracle and an Atlantian sage and a diviner of the occult. God had become lost and forgotten and I did not even for one moment consider why...

How powerful can four words be? "It was God's will"... They nearly took my life.

In the midst of all of my own personal turmoil I went into a beauty salon to get my hair cut for a job interview. I was sitting down and discussing the streams of thoughts running in my mind and the barber was saying that my thoughts were not in alignment with "the word". He would say this is off and this is on. I did not know what to make of this very strange person.

So as I left he gave me a business card that had his name on it and the name of a biblical ministry.

This was at the height of my plan to do myself in. One night I sat at a phone booth debating whether to call my sister and say goodbye or to call this man and see why he thought my perceptions were "off"...

Suddenly my hands began to dial his number. He answered and said they were just about to begin a "fellowship" and he gave me the address. I got into my car and my arms were driving my foot was pushing the gas pedal but I was still in my mind standing on the ledge of the bridge...

This was the only time in my life when I have ever felt the presence of a "guardian angel"...

I arrived at their house. A woman opened the door and I will never forget her smile... If I were to ever go to heaven I am sure I would be greeted by a smile like this... I walked in and I felt out of place. They made me feel comfortable and they accepted me. The were in haste to begin the fellowship.

They passed around little books with words to hymns.. I was thinking this is weird and my heart was feeling like it was queasy and I did not really know how to classify this experience...

No one played an instrument they knew the tune to the words by heart. We all stood in a circle and they began to sing. I felt obliged to sing along... At first my words were only a tuneless mumble... Then suddenly the words on the page began to jump out at me. "Love lifted me".... I began to actually read them. My heart began to suddenly see... I had to forgive God...

I don't know if forgive God is the right words but at that point I had to turn things around again and raise God up to the place where he had once occupied...

So we sung several songs and soon I was loving each and every word in this little song book. I found myself hungry for God again. This was when they took me to the Bible and showed me that God did not kill my brother... But we were as they put it "ripped off"...

I spend three whole days with them teaching me the Bible... "as it is written"...

A month later I signed myself up to become a missionary... a month after that I was out teaching this message to others. I no longer blamed God for death and injustice. Jesus was not just a swear word. I no longer needed my guardian angel...


Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rex,

I am very sorry for your pain. May God grant His comfort to you.

Like I said, it may be within us that we feel the need to forgive God. But, God does not do anything for us to forgive Him for. That is man's perception of things. Yes, I can understand how someone saying that to you at that time could throw you off your path. I am very joyful that you have found your way back! God Bless You!

I do agree with your take on this...

Forgive is not the right word but blame is very prevalent...

Rex,

Yes, people blame God for many things. I suppose that is because He does have the power to just wave His wand and everything could be perfect. I admit I ask why at times, but when I do, I try to always remember that I cannot possibly comprehend all His ways.

Luke 1:74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,
79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

Rex,
I read your touching testimony and am glad that you seem to have finally found comfort. It is only my opinion, but I think that what you felt you had to forgive God for was what that Preacher had said. Not anything that God did or didn't do. You can call it forgiving God, but you could just as easily call it accepting God once more.

God does not give us more than we can handle. You proved that. Sure, it seems that we cannot go on and there is nothing left for us. I have lost a brother as well. I did not blame God. I recently lost a 2 month old grandson. I did not blame God. Rather, God gave me the comfort that I would not have found anywhere else.

Jesus once said, "Blessed is he who is not offended because of Me."

We read in 1 Peter:4:16 Yet if anone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let h im glorify God in this matter.

Thanks for taking the time to read my testimony and for the comforting words.

I guess my problem as a twelve years old was that I trusted my preacher... I did not realize what that trust was costing me in my mind and soul...

I have learned that it is not God that "tests" us but God that saves us from ourselves. I have learned to see a line of bull (not referring to anything/anyone specific) a mile away. I have learned to hold God in the highest possible esteem. This is why I believe salvation is a "gift" and that works are only an impediment that more often than not comes between simply loving the father. If we can do the fathers will then life is so much more sweeter but that does not dictate the father's love for us... God loves the unlovable and raises up the weak in heart.

God is not waiting for us to become self holy but God is the giver of holiness so we can shine in his true image. If it means forgiving "God" or just recognizing that God is the very essence of true holiness and virtue then AMEN... Anything that comes between that idea is not truth but a lie. A lie, designed to make us stumble. A lie that rips us off of our loved ones, a lie that lurks around in our unawares until it strikes. Yet, God is always there to talk us down from our ledges. God is always willing to place someone with grace and kindness in our path to heal us with acceptance, mercy and the word of truth. Yet is takes meekness on our part to respond...

God overlooks our sin to look within to the spirit and desire. This is what pleases God. When one realizes this, they give control of their own destiny to God and this is the essence of faith and trust in God.

God doesn't need rose petals in heaven, God doesn't take young children to be his cherubs, God does not cause storms and cause people to riot just to "test" us. You will still hear some of the greatest "preachers" of our times claim this... And some (Like the Rev. Billy Graham that simply say... "they don't know", or that God is "mysterious"...) Well that is not good enough for me! When there is suddenly silence... God speaks to us audibly... and shows us the path of his righteousness, peace and our life's calling.

Some reach the bottom of the barrel... the only place that one can go down further than there is death... Not everyone needs to sink that low and some fall because they are simply lost in darkness...

Again it is not God who hands out travesty... it is God who holds out a hand and warmly smiles with tears and welcomes us back home...

So do we forgive God for the harshness of the law? Do we forgive God for the polygamy of Solomon? Do we forgive God for those who found love in another's arms because there was no love but only violence left in their "marriage"? Do we forgive God for condoning slavery? Do we forgive God for suggesting the stoning of unruly youngsters? Do we forgive God for the blood of lambs? Do we forgive God for the burning of Sodom and Gomorrah because they were "gay"...? Do we forgive God for the genocide of Noah's time? Do we forgive God for our own trials? Do we forgive God because he allows this world to spiral down into war after war? Do we cast the first stone at God? Is this God?

This cannot be God...

God is love...

Peace with God...

Rex

First, let me say I am sorry for the losses in your life and I think you have truly made an earnest effort to find comfort again, but I think too that you are still acting and believing as if you were a twelve year old.

You are correct that we cannot blame God for misfortune, but if so, then we cannot credit Him for any good fortune. This modern God is a odd creature of man's mind. He cannot force his will upon you, nor control the weather or earthquakes, he cannot stop war or even provide protection against injuries in a football game although the players pray for such protection. So why's He hanging around here? He's not. He is a fiction and once you let go of the fiction and figure out that it's just life that we have you begin living.

God didn't burn your brother up in that bus, it just happened. It was just part of life. Nature doesn't pay much attention to individuals whether they be giant whales or bristlecone pines or star-gazers. Life goes on.

Yet love springs from that same Nature, the same Nature where species disappear in eyeblinks, fills us with the joy of living and makes us want to go on too.

What would be missing if you took God out of your life's equation? Only the stuff that's not real. Love is real, it would still be there. Fear is real, it would still be there. and so would be hope and mercy and peace. The only thing that would be gone would be the fiction that there is something more than this life.

Joe(This is it. Get with it.)Nation

I like that, Joe. Very neat and concise. We all have our sorrows and angers. We don't all invoke a deity because of it.

Joe N. :



Just curious, Joe. doesn't an atheist have to have unambiguous, scientific proof of something, before he can say it exists?

How can you know that there is love?

I guess what I'm getting at is that it has to be sort of a subjective argument, and not something one can make any final declaration on - unless it's something you just have faith in. But nonbelievers can't have faith, right?

And please don't give me "Anyone should know that there is love", because that's the sort of statement that you wouldn't take from a believer in God without directing some pithy rebuttal their way.

Same old tired faith argument. We are what we are, due to evolution and individual circumstance. No faith to it.

thanks for that, edgar. Care to comment on how one "knows" there is love, hope, etc?

If you took God out of my everyday life, I would have and be nothing! God is my life. He comforts me, He helps me, He sustains me.

God could do all the things that Joe says He doesn't do. Yet, when things like this are stated the part that man plays is more often than not left completely out.

It may be your opinion Joe Nation that Rex is acting like a twelve year old, but it definitely is not mine. Anytime anyone is searching for God and the truth they are not displaying characteristics of a twelve year old. They are searching for something they feel should be in their lives (IMO). Just as we should not belittle you or others who do not believe, we should not be belittled for what we do believe.