Should we handle victory the way the Christian god decrees?

Well, like Mark Twain said, "Go to heaven for the climate. Go to hell for the company."

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snood wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:

Quote:
In the end, we'll all get to the same place and will be able to compare notes. Now THAT will be fun.

Sadly, not all.

There always seems to be someone around who's very willing to insert that caveat. I think their cocksureness about their place in heaven sort of grates a lot of people.

Snood,
I can't figure out if you are replying to foxfyre or me. Since you mention caveat, I assume you are replying to me. Do you see this as a caveat? Do you think that we all will go to the same place? I cannot guarantee that I will go. I don't think anyone has said they are guaranteed a place in heaven. That is up to God and our willingness to prepare our own way.

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Intrepid wrote:

snood wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:

Quote:
In the end, we'll all get to the same place and will be able to compare notes. Now THAT will be fun.

Sadly, not all.

There always seems to be someone around who's very willing to insert that caveat. I think their cocksureness about their place in heaven sort of grates a lot of people.

Snood,
I can't figure out if you are replying to foxfyre or me. Since you mention caveat, I assume you are replying to me. Do you see this as a caveat? Do you think that we all will go to the same place? I cannot guarantee that I will go. I don't think anyone has said they are guaranteed a place in heaven. That is up to God and our willingness to prepare our own way.

I have a long and varied experience in, around, and out of the Christian Church. I've seen a lot of different people with a lot of different attitudes about what they think happens after death, and how that dictates the way they conduct themselves while their alive. In general, something that always gives me pause is a Christian talking about where and in what condition others will end up in the afterlife. In particular, it makes me very angry when I see people trying to talk about what kind of exclusivity God practices. I once belonged to a church in which I heard a sermon (maybe my last one there) that there was talk about how your status - your financial frikkin status - here on earth has something to do with the place you will hold in heaven. Something along the lines of "if you are willing to settle for driving around in a used car and living in a small place here, your place in heaven would probably reflect what you are able to appreciate". I couldn't believe it. It was and is a popular thing in many churches to equate material wealth with spiritual uprightness - because after all, God would reward you if you were being good, I guess the reasoning is.

My whole concept of God, and my very grasp on sanity require me to keep distance between myself and anyone who thinks like that.

Your "Sadly, not all" just reminded me that some people see themselves as perfect arbiters of who goes where in the afterlife. If you are not one of those people, and if my comments offended you, I apologize.

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Hi Snood,

I have heard some of those same sermons. And, I, like you, do not agree with them. God is not about material wealth or status. Jesus makes it very clear in the Bible about how hard it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Spiritual wealth is something altogether different. I believe we gain that wealth by developing our relationship with God and growing spiritually.

I cannot speak for Intrepid, but I do not believe he meant that in an offensive way. It is unfortunate Snood, but I don't believe everyone will go to heaven. Now, I cannot say who will and who won't go to heaven. That is for God only to know.

I have great respect for your views, Snood. I think you have a good heart.

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Snood,
Perhaps you misunderstood me. I stand by my "Sadly, not all" However, I would never presume to be an arbiter of who is included in that all. I hope to be one of them, but I have no way of knowing if I will be until the time comes. All I can do is my best.

The sermon that you described actually sickens me. I have never heard such a sermon and, in my church, I know I never will. Jesus described how a camel going through the eye of a needle is easier than it is for us to get into heaven ( I paraphrase). It is our works and faith that will help us to get there. Not material wealth or how much money we give to the church. God does not need or want our money.

I was replying to the post that said we would all be there. We will not. I do not know who will and who will not and under what exact circumstances it will happen. I just know I want to be one of them. I want all of us to be one of them.

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Thanks Intrepid. I understand.

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Intrepid wrote:

Snood,
Perhaps you misunderstood me. I stand by my "Sadly, not all" However, I would never presume to be an arbiter of who is included in that all. I hope to be one of them, but I have no way of knowing if I will be until the time comes. All I can do is my best.

(snip...)

I was replying to the post that said we would all be there. We will not. I do not know who will and who will not and under what exact circumstances it will happen. I just know I want to be one of them. I want all of us to be one of them.

Question for ya.

You indicate that there is some uncertainty as to whether you are one of the ones who will "be there". (I didn't read all the prior posts, but I assume you are speaking about Heaven).

In your final paragraph, you display no uncertainty that not all people will be in Heaven when you answer "we will not" (as in, not all of us will be there). I sense no uncertainty at all in this comment.

I wonder why you are (or appear strongly to be) certain not all people will be in Heaven, yet you are not nearly as certain that you yourself will be there.

This is really an honest inquiry - nothing else is intended or implied.

I

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snood wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
snood wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:

Quote:
In the end, we'll all get to the same place and will be able to compare notes. Now THAT will be fun.

Sadly, not all.

There always seems to be someone around who's very willing to insert that caveat. I think their cocksureness about their place in heaven sort of grates a lot of people.

Snood,
I can't figure out if you are replying to foxfyre or me. Since you mention caveat, I assume you are replying to me. Do you see this as a caveat? Do you think that we all will go to the same place? I cannot guarantee that I will go. I don't think anyone has said they are guaranteed a place in heaven. That is up to God and our willingness to prepare our own way.

I have a long and varied experience in, around, and out of the Christian Church. I've seen a lot of different people with a lot of different attitudes about what they think happens after death, and how that dictates the way they conduct themselves while their alive. In general, something that always gives me pause is a Christian talking about where and in what condition others will end up in the afterlife. In particular, it makes me very angry when I see people trying to talk about what kind of exclusivity God practices. I once belonged to a church in which I heard a sermon (maybe my last one there) that there was talk about how your status - your financial frikkin status - here on earth has something to do with the place you will hold in heaven. Something along the lines of "if you are willing to settle for driving around in a used car and living in a small place here, your place in heaven would probably reflect what you are able to appreciate". I couldn't believe it. It was and is a popular thing in many churches to equate material wealth with spiritual uprightness - because after all, God would reward you if you were being good, I guess the reasoning is.

My whole concept of God, and my very grasp on sanity require me to keep distance between myself and anyone who thinks like that.

Your "Sadly, not all" just reminded me that some people see themselves as perfect arbiters of who goes where in the afterlife. If you are not one of those people, and if my comments offended you, I apologize.

Great post Snood... and that would be my last attendance at that church myself... I would have gotten up and walked out in the middle of service...

The body returns to the dust... the soul (breath life) returns to the air and the holy spirit returns to God... The spirit is a "gift" from God. Those who freely accept his "gift" do so with meekness, not human self pride. It is not paid for nor earned by us but was bought and paid in full by the sacrifice and commitment of our dear lord and savior Jesus Christ... God will full us all "born again" of "holy" spirit to overflowing in the afterlife... So we shall never know want or need... The capacity of our heavenly vessel will be dependant on the capacity of our hearts to love in this life... regardless it will still unceasingly overflow with God's perfect peace and love... Money is not evil... LOVE of money is the root of all evil... Money CAN aid in the service of the poor but love is greater than any form of wealth...

1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Where the frick is Frank????? I miss your rant Frank, sorely... Sad

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Intrepid started a thread about Frank being missing. I miss him too!

He is on some sort of a hiatus. Hope he gets back soon.

0 Replies

Implicator wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
Snood,
Perhaps you misunderstood me. I stand by my "Sadly, not all" However, I would never presume to be an arbiter of who is included in that all. I hope to be one of them, but I have no way of knowing if I will be until the time comes. All I can do is my best.

(snip...)

I was replying to the post that said we would all be there. We will not. I do not know who will and who will not and under what exact circumstances it will happen. I just know I want to be one of them. I want all of us to be one of them.

Question for ya.

You indicate that there is some uncertainty as to whether you are one of the ones who will "be there". (I didn't read all the prior posts, but I assume you are speaking about Heaven).

In your final paragraph, you display no uncertainty that not all people will be in Heaven when you answer "we will not" (as in, not all of us will be there). I sense no uncertainty at all in this comment.

I wonder why you are (or appear strongly to be) certain not all people will be in Heaven, yet you are not nearly as certain that you yourself will be there.

This is really an honest inquiry - nothing else is intended or implied.

I

Fair question.

Last first. We can read scripture telling us that Jesus' will is that all will be saved. The belief in eternal life is the essence of the gospel. There is no free ticket to get to heaven. There is work involved to earn a place there.

Our attitude towards God and Jesus Christ and to each other is a huge part of what is required to get there. We are admonished to love our neighbour as ourself. That is easily said, but extremely hard to do. We are, after all, still human with our human frailties and that thing called free will. Everything that we do as good and evil are counted. Revelation tells us that "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection." Jesus had said in Matthew that "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also."

I believe, based on scripture, that those who have proved their unswerving loyalty towards the Lord and have achieved a state of perfection that is done willingly and honestly will go to heaven.

Based on this, it seems that not all will be part of eternity in heaven.

The answer to the first part is that only I can work on my own soul salvation. I can go to church and come under the word of God through his servants, but they cannot work on my soul directly. Only I can do that. You may have also read that the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. It is truly a battle to attain and reman as perfect as the Lord expects. Even posting on forums such as this can bring out a combative nature that should be foreign to me. No, I am not sure I will be there.

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Intrepid wrote:

Implicator wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
Snood,
Perhaps you misunderstood me. I stand by my "Sadly, not all" However, I would never presume to be an arbiter of who is included in that all. I hope to be one of them, but I have no way of knowing if I will be until the time comes. All I can do is my best.

(snip...)

I was replying to the post that said we would all be there. We will not. I do not know who will and who will not and under what exact circumstances it will happen. I just know I want to be one of them. I want all of us to be one of them.

Question for ya.

You indicate that there is some uncertainty as to whether you are one of the ones who will "be there". (I didn't read all the prior posts, but I assume you are speaking about Heaven).

In your final paragraph, you display no uncertainty that not all people will be in Heaven when you answer "we will not" (as in, not all of us will be there). I sense no uncertainty at all in this comment.

I wonder why you are (or appear strongly to be) certain not all people will be in Heaven, yet you are not nearly as certain that you yourself will be there.

This is really an honest inquiry - nothing else is intended or implied.

I

Fair question.

Last first. We can read scripture telling us that Jesus' will is that all will be saved. The belief in eternal life is the essence of the gospel. There is no free ticket to get to heaven. There is work involved to earn a place there.

Our attitude towards God and Jesus Christ and to each other is a huge part of what is required to get there. We are admonished to love our neighbour as ourself. That is easily said, but extremely hard to do. We are, after all, still human with our human frailties and that thing called free will. Everything that we do as good and evil are counted. Revelation tells us that "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection." Jesus had said in Matthew that "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also."

I believe, based on scripture, that those who have proved their unswerving loyalty towards the Lord and have achieved a state of perfection that is done willingly and honestly will go to heaven.

Based on this, it seems that not all will be part of eternity in heaven.

The answer to the first part is that only I can work on my own soul salvation. I can go to church and come under the word of God through his servants, but they cannot work on my soul directly. Only I can do that. You may have also read that the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. It is truly a battle to attain and reman as perfect as the Lord expects. Even posting on forums such as this can bring out a combative nature that should be foreign to me. No, I am not sure I will be there.

Intrepid - if only those who achieve "perfection" will be there, what's all the talk about Jesus coming not to save the well, but the afflicted? Wasn't he the champion of the outcast? How many people have you met who think they have achieved that perfection?

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Snood wrote:

Quote:

Intrepid - if only those who achieve "perfection" will be there, what's all the talk about Jesus coming not to save the well, but the afflicted? Wasn't he the champion of the outcast? How many people have you met who think they have achieved that perfection?

Perfection as defined by the Lord, not man. Could you please direct me to the passage that speaks of not saving the well, but the afflicted?

Jesus is the champion of all, not just the outcast. Outcast by whom, BTW?

I have met many people who think they have achieved perfection. Likely, however, in their own mind only. There is a difference in achieving spirtual perfection to earthly perfection.

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Intrepid wrote:

Snood wrote:

Quote:
Intrepid - if only those who achieve "perfection" will be there, what's all the talk about Jesus coming not to save the well, but the afflicted? Wasn't he the champion of the outcast? How many people have you met who think they have achieved that perfection?

Perfection as defined by the Lord, not man. Could you please direct me to the passage that speaks of not saving the well, but the afflicted?

Jesus is the champion of all, not just the outcast. Outcast by whom, BTW?

I have met many people who think they have achieved perfection. Likely, however, in their own mind only. There is a difference in achieving spirtual perfection to earthly perfection.

I promise to do a scripture search, and have already begun. I'm sure I am not as expert as are you about their contents. But I have definite memory of the concept being taught (it certainly isn't an original thought of mine, in any case) that he came to save those in need of saving. And I'm sure you are aware of the passages about God holding as foolish those things which man holds as important, and vice versa. Also about those that would be first, being last, and vice-versa. But, to my search...

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Momma Angel wrote:

Intrepid started a thread about Frank being missing. I miss him too!

He is on some sort of a hiatus. Hope he gets back soon.

Gimme some of that stuff y'all are smokin!!!

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And Intrepid, while I'm searching - can you give me scriptures that say God will accept only the perfect into heaven?

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snood wrote:

And Intrepid, while I'm searching - can you give me scriptures that say God will accept only the perfect into heaven?

I don't know about getting into heaven, but he was a bit picky about his priests.

Quote:

Leviticus 21
16 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
17 Speak unto Aaron, saying, Whosoever he be of thy seed in their generations that hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God.
.18 For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous,
19 Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded,
20 Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken;
.21 No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God.
22 He shall eat the bread of his God, both of the most holy, and of the holy.
23 Only he shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries: for I the LORD do sanctify them.

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Intrepid, As to "not coming to save the well, but the afflicted" (my words), I probably was thinking of this

Luke 5: 30-32 -
30But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law who belonged to their sect complained to his disciples, "Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and 'sinners'?"
31Jesus answered them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 32I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."
That passage also addresses the idea about Christ hanging with the outcasts.

In . John 4:10,

The woman at the well had been married five times and was living with somebody she wasn't married to. But Christ treated her with great honor

In Luke 7: 37-38, Jesus is seen having a prostitute anoint his feet.
37When a woman who had lived a sinful life in that town learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee's house, she brought an alabaster jar of perfume, 38and as she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them.

Anyway, I'm sure that's where I got what I was saying. I always thought of Jesus as someone who wouldn't be hanging with the young Republicans, but with the hiphop crowd. Not as someone who would hang with those who thought of themselves as "perfect", but with those in need of spiritual help. But, that's just me

0 Replies

Intrepid wrote:

Implicator wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
Snood,
Perhaps you misunderstood me. I stand by my "Sadly, not all" However, I would never presume to be an arbiter of who is included in that all. I hope to be one of them, but I have no way of knowing if I will be until the time comes. All I can do is my best.

(snip...)

I was replying to the post that said we would all be there. We will not. I do not know who will and who will not and under what exact circumstances it will happen. I just know I want to be one of them. I want all of us to be one of them.

Question for ya.

You indicate that there is some uncertainty as to whether you are one of the ones who will "be there". (I didn't read all the prior posts, but I assume you are speaking about Heaven).

In your final paragraph, you display no uncertainty that not all people will be in Heaven when you answer "we will not" (as in, not all of us will be there). I sense no uncertainty at all in this comment.

I wonder why you are (or appear strongly to be) certain not all people will be in Heaven, yet you are not nearly as certain that you yourself will be there.

This is really an honest inquiry - nothing else is intended or implied.

I

Fair question.

Last first. We can read scripture telling us that Jesus' will is that all will be saved. The belief in eternal life is the essence of the gospel. There is no free ticket to get to heaven. There is work involved to earn a place there.

Our attitude towards God and Jesus Christ and to each other is a huge part of what is required to get there. We are admonished to love our neighbour as ourself. That is easily said, but extremely hard to do. We are, after all, still human with our human frailties and that thing called free will. Everything that we do as good and evil are counted. Revelation tells us that "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection." Jesus had said in Matthew that "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also."

I believe, based on scripture, that those who have proved their unswerving loyalty towards the Lord and have achieved a state of perfection that is done willingly and honestly will go to heaven.

Based on this, it seems that not all will be part of eternity in heaven.

The answer to the first part is that only I can work on my own soul salvation. I can go to church and come under the word of God through his servants, but they cannot work on my soul directly. Only I can do that. You may have also read that the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. It is truly a battle to attain and reman as perfect as the Lord expects. Even posting on forums such as this can bring out a combative nature that should be foreign to me. No, I am not sure I will be there.

Respectfully... you are seriously in error my friend...

1John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Comment:
Ever wonder why it is called the "gift" of eternal life? When have you ever had to work for a "gift"? The work was done 2000 years ago and your salvation needs only for you to believe in it and "claim" it. We were brought into this world dead in sin.. What works can a "dead" man/woman do to please God?

Romans 8:8
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Comment: Yet when we believe in the righteousness of Christ it is the spirit of Christ born in us that "pleases God". This spirit is seed and "holy spiritual" seed is eternal. We do operate this spirit and the operation is also pleasing to God but it is the presence of this spirit (seed that remaineth) that determines eternal "life" not the operation thereof. When people boast of their own works they are only obscuring the brilliance of God's gift and his Son's sacrifice for our salvation...

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Comment:
I believe you are stuck in the gospel logic.. Jesus was addressing the Jews in the gospels yet in the epistles things change because of the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus. Thus we are not justified by how much we love our neighbor and forgive our debtors but we are justified by how we "forgive" or recognize the righteousness of Christ and God...

Romans 1:17
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 10:3
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Peace with God...

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Snood wrote:

Quote:

Intrepid, As to “not coming to save the well, but the afflicted” (my words), I probably was thinking of this…

Luke 5: 30-32 -
30But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law who belonged to their sect complained to his disciples, "Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and 'sinners'?"
31Jesus answered them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 32I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
That passage also addresses the idea about Christ hanging with the outcasts.

We are not in disagreement here. Jesus wanted that all be saved, but he recognized that some needed more work than others. He referred himself here to a healer of the sick. It is those sinners that have not repented that he desires to be whole.

It is also written in Galatians:
1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.
4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
5 For every man shall bear his own burden.
6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Quote:

In . John 4:10,

The woman at the well had been married five times and was living with somebody she wasn't married to. But Christ treated her with great honor

True. He did not judge her and he was pleased that she did not say she was married when she was not. He told her that whosoever drinks of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. Another indication that all can be saved.

Quote:

In Luke 7: 37-38, Jesus is seen having a prostitute anoint his feet.
37When a woman who had lived a sinful life in that town learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee's house, she brought an alabaster jar of perfume, 38and as she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them.

The scripture explains this better than I can.

36 And one of the Pharisees desired him that he would eat with him. And he went into the Pharisee's house, and sat down to meat.
37 And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment,
38 And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.
39 Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.
40 And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on.
41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.
42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.
44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?
50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Quote:

Anyway, I’m sure that’s where I got what I was saying. I always thought of Jesus as someone who wouldn’t be hanging with the young Republicans, but with the hiphop crowd. Not as someone who would hang with those who thought of themselves as “perfect”, but with those in need of spiritual help. But, that’s just me…

He wanted all to be saved and that includes the good, the bad and the ugly. He wanted those who needed the spiritual help to become perfect spiritually. Look at Saul the tax collector who became Apostle Paul as an example. We still seem to be in agreement. Just saying it differently.

In another post you asked me to provide scripture that indicated Jesus wanted perfection in those who would ascend to heaven. By perfection, I mean that he wants those with true repentance and loving hearts towards Him. I will try to give some examples.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

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Rexred wrote:

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Respectfully... you are seriously in error my friend...

Respectfully, we seem to be in disagreement on this

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1John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Did you read the whole chapter?

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Are you suggesting that this means us? That we are physically born without sin? Jesus was born of God and this is referring to the rebirth in God.

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Comment:
Ever wonder why it is called the "gift" of eternal life? When have you ever had to work for a "gift"? The work was done 2000 years ago and your salvation needs only for you to believe in it and "claim" it. We were brought into this world dead in sin.. What works can a "dead" man/woman do to please God?

We cannot ride on the coattails of what was done 2000 years ago. Like I said, it is not a free pass. Otherwise, all one would have to do is profess love for God on their deathbed after living a life of sin and corruption and they would automatically become justified in Christ. We were not brought in dead in sin and even if we were, we sin while we are here on earth. All carry the original sin of Adam and Eve.

John 3:
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

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Romans 8:8
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Comment: Yet when we believe in the righteousness of Christ it is the spirit of Christ born in us that "pleases God". This spirit is seed and "holy spiritual" seed is eternal. We do operate this spirit and the operation is also pleasing to God but it is the presence of this spirit (seed that remaineth) that determines eternal "life" not the operation thereof. When people boast of their own works they are only obscuring the brilliance of God's gift and his Son's sacrifice for our salvation...

John 6:
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

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Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Comment:
I believe you are stuck in the gospel logic.. Jesus was addressing the Jews in the gospels yet in the epistles things change because of the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus. Thus we are not justified by how much we love our neighbor and forgive our debtors but we are justified by how we "forgive" or recognize the righteousness of Christ and God...

We are not in total agreement on the interpretation. Look at the parable of the wise and the foolish in Matthew 25. Look at the commission Jesus gave to the deciples in
Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

When you say "but we are justified by how we "forgive" or recognize the righteousness of Christ and God." Are you suggesting that we forgive Jesus? This does not make sense. If you mean forgive others then that is loving our neighbour and forgiving our debtors. We must do that to be reconciled with Christ.

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Romans 1:17
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 10:3
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Peace with God...

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Should we handle victory the way the Christian god decrees?

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