Are you a soldier mesquite?
I am retired USAF. What difference does that make to this discussion?
Momma Angel wrote:And thanx for the welcome back. I really did miss everyone. I haven't read all the threads completely, as I just skimmed most of them. I just happened to catch the one you put in about all you needed.
I must confess, it was bait.
I used to do a lot of fishing during my time in Louisiana in the sixties.
mesquite wrote:I am retired USAF. What difference does that make to this discussion?
Oh, none I guess. Does air force have special status?
mequite wrote:
Quote:I but being a soldier does not give one license to be an ass.
hey Joe, hate to answer you question with a question but regardless of GODS love or lack of it do you think we are still responsible for our actions including our thoughts as well as our beliefs?
Frank, hope your well
in your question you have the words Christian GOD, if you read the old testament, you will find many things that would be considered outrageous by today's standards. As a Christian my self, a more outrageous question would be how can GOD send his only begotten son to pay for the sins of this world so that those who are willing to believe may have a path to enlightenment?
However, it is by that very crucifixion that such old outrageous practices are no longer needed...back to my point the word Christian did not even exist till almost 100 AD long after the old testament. and as far as your challenge for someone to offer a passage that demonstrates GOD's love, how about JOHN 3-16 "for GOD so loved the world he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not parish, but have everlasting life." GOD gave us free will, so if the the world seems to be destroying it self its the software (creation) not the hardware (creator).
theloandoc wrote:hey Joe, hate to answer you question with a question but regardless of GODS love or lack of it do you think we are still responsible for our actions including our thoughts as well as our beliefs?
Frank, hope your well
I'm well, thank you.
Quote:
in your question you have the words Christian GOD, if you read the old testament, you will find many things that would be considered outrageous by today's standards.
I certainly do. And when I speak of the god of the Bible...it is that god to whom I make reference. That god, after all, is the god Jesus worshipped.
Quote:As a Christian my self, a more outrageous question would be how can GOD send his only begotten son to pay for the sins of this world...
Quote:
And since the "sins" are merely the things humans do that offend that god...it is even more outrageous. It is, as are so many other things the god does, barbaric.
The god, in effect, said: Okay, I will forgive all you people for offending me by doing all the things you humans do....but in order for me to do that, you must first torture and kill my son.
Quote:... so that those who are willing to believe may have a path to enlightenment?
However, it is by that very crucifixion that such old outrageous practices are no longer needed...
There is absolutely nothing that Jesus ever said to indicate that he was here to do away with the "old outrageous practices." In fact, they are not "practices." The are statements about how the god feels about certain human activities...and about what the god expects of humans.
Why does any Christian feel that the god has changed its mind about any of that nonsense...simply because Jesus was tortured and killed?
Quote:
back to my point the word Christian did not even exist till almost 100 AD long after the old testament. and as far as your challenge for someone to offer a passage that demonstrates GOD's love, how about JOHN 3-16 "for GOD so loved the world he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not parish, but have everlasting life."
How can anyone possibly distort logic to suppose that this violent, barbaric act possibly be an act of love? That is the single most absurd contention of Christianity.
Quote:GOD gave us free will, so if the the world seems to be destroying it self its the software (creation) not the hardware (creator).
If this pitiful god actually gave us free will...why doesn't it simply get the hell out of here and let us exercise it without a bunch of goddam threats?
What good is the free will if the god is going to punish you for all eternity if you exercise it the "wrong " way....which seems to be any way a human exercises it? EVERYTHING offends this pitiful god.
Theloandoc wrote:
Quote:hey Joe, hate to answer you question with a question but regardless of GODS love or lack of it do you think we are still responsible for our actions including our thoughts as well as our beliefs?
Welcome to A2K.
Of course, do unto others as you would have done unto yourself, did you think Jesus made that up? It was a guiding principle of morality long before he stepped onto his first wave. And here's the thing: whatever action I take or don't take, you can be sure that I'm acting on my own, and not compelled by either the need for heaven nor the fear of hell, not acting from any god-given free will but the the free will that soars naturally out of all human beings. My morality is based on the love of humanity and not the fear of some supernatural, often ill-tempered, god.
I'm glad you brought up John 3:16, because it's a favorite, but look closely at it, as if you had never read it. It's the touchstone of a death cult. It's full of irony. God gives His Son, who by the way is also God, Who then dies a horrible death in order to save us. Wait. Wasn't the Son immortal? So what's a little death to Him? An afternoon in the park. Where's the sacrifice if three days later he's up and about and on the road? Jesus spoke of loving each other but that's not the main message of 3:16, it's just the same blood-letting smiter God letting his Son take a spear in the side. Where's the love in that?
Life is not about death. Life is about living life, full of love, full of hope, full of grace. Gods of all kinds often get in the way of humans doing that. Humans get confused by voices in their heads, by high priests who claim authority from the voices in their heads and the message never seems to be "Love one another."
That simple phrase is much too complex or not complex enough. The history of Christianity can be seen as the constant search to add on provisos to that phrase. Love one another,
but not if the other is not a believer like those Islamics holding Jerusalem, love one another
but ghettoize those Jews, love one another
but not if there's two men or two women involved, love one another
but burn all the books of the shaman, love one another
but cast a suspicious eye on even the others who do believe as we do, maybe even do a little torture to make sure they stay in line.
That's not God's fault, you say? I say it is. He goofed, as he so often does which is curious for an all-knowing God, by letting the extra rule makers live. He shoulda smote them all down. "What? My believers are raising an army to send against the heathen Cherokee? May boils rise upon their feet until they either get it or drop dead. Their choice, of course."
My point is God is not doing his job. If you had an employee like God, acts erratically, causes conflict amongst the other workers, seems impervious to injustice and disease amongst the innocent, fails to respond to entreaties, dashs hopes and appears to have no rational plan for dealing with the distribution of natural disasters and allows those few who luck out and do well in this world to act as if they were entitled to their good fortune, wouldn't you fire Him?
Joe(I've been going over your job history, Jehovah...)Nation
Fair comments, I think, Joe. My thoughts on John 3:16 have always been: too little, too late.
I did fire him you know,
...Late one Friday afternoon... and things have been, um, just fine since. I don't have him to blame or curse if things go wrong. If things go right, I know it's either something I did or maybe Nature just leaned my way. Either way it's on me to do right because it's right and not for any other reason.
Joe(be brave enough to let go)Nation
Why the bible doesn't make any sense:
"Are we punished only for our own sins? Yes (Num 16:22, Deut
24:16, 2 Kings 14:6, 2 Chron 25:4, Ezek 18:20, Jer 31:30).
But God punishes many for the sins of one, or for the sins
of one's ancestors (Ex 13:15, 20:5, 34:7, Lev 26:22, Num
14:18, Deut 5:9, 28:32, 41, 46, Josh 22:20, 2 Kings 5:27, Ps
109:9-10, 137:8-9, Isa 14:21-22, Jer 6:11, 18:21, Hosea 2:4-
5, 12:2-3, where God will punish the entire tribe of Judah
for Jacob taking Esau's heel when they were born, Mal 2:3).
"Original sin" generally, which means that all humanity is
punished for Adam's sin (e.g Rom 5:12, 19, 1 Cor 15:22; see
also "Punishments").
When will we be punished for sin? OT says in this life, by
death, destruction or suffering (Deut 6:24, 16:20, 28:15-68,
30:16-20, Josh 23:16, Ps 55:23, 92:12-14, Prov 2:22, 10:2-3,
27-31, 12:2, 21, Job 36:6, which says God does not preserve
the life of the wicked, Amos 9: esp v 10, Isa 34, Jer 31:30,
Ezek 8-9, 18:13, 20, 31. Deut 28:20 says punishment is
quick death; but v 15-68 imply long agony.) But the godly
suffer and the wicked prosper (Job 2:3-6, 21:7-13, Eccl 7:15,
2 Tim 3:12). So the NT invents Hell as place of punishment for
sin after Last Judgment.
Does God want blood sacrifices? Yes (Gen 15:9, Ex 20:24, 29:10-
42, Lev 1:1-7, 3:2, 4:6-7, 8:23-24, with detailed
instructions in Ex, Lev, Num, Deut). He enjoys the "sweet
savour" (Gen 8:21, Lev 1:9, Ezek 20:40-41). Sacrifices
atone for sin (Num 15:24-28). The keystone of his plan of
salvation, according to NT, is the blood sacrifice of his
son, the Lamb of God, as the only acceptable atonement for
Adam's sin.
But God did not tell Moses to sacrifice (Jer 7:21-22;
also Amos 5:21-26, Hos 8:13, Mic 6:6-8, Isa 1:11-13).
Sacrifices do not atone for sin (Heb 10:11)."
theloandoc,
Hi, welcome to our little world here. Glad you have joined us. We need more of us that know of God's pure love.
I have pointed out John 3:16 to Frank and others many times. They prefer to see it as God being barbaric and having His son tortured and killed. They do seem to miss the fact that He was resurrected on the third day and ascended to heaven.
I do have a question for Frank and those that believe how John 3:16 is not about God's love. I suppose if Jesus had died of pneumonia instead of crucifixion you might think God was less barbaric? But, I suppose if he had died of some illness not many would have noticed nor understood the sacrifice.
God is alive and in my life every minute of every day. I know He exists. It's not a guess. It's a fact.
And yes loandoc, it does make you realize just how much you are blessed, doesn't it? I have often thought how sad it is for those here that are so far from God. I couldn't imagine my life without Him in it.
Hang in there, you are in for some heavy hits, but it's the norm for a few in here.
Momma Angel
theloandoc wrote:i am sorry you feel that way, that just confirms to me how blessed i really am in that even as you curse my GOD i am still full of love for you...
Hey, Doc, don't get me wrong. I am full of love for you too. And for MA and all the others. We agnostics have a motto: Don't hate the hypocrite; hate his/her hypocrisy.
So being able to love others although they are diametrically opposed to yours does not need a god to occur. In fact (don't spread this around)....I think it is easier for us to love you folk than for you to love us.
Quote:...and if that does not testify to GODS love for the world well its just not you time Frank is all.
As I said...feeling love towards one's fellow human being...despite differences...does not require a god...and if you think that your god is responsible for you being a decent human being, Doc...you are short changing yourself.
loandoc,
This is about the time you will need to put on your armour. It's that old lulling you into a false sense of security thing. I fell for it for a few seconds, but it didn't last.
Momma Angel wrote:theloandoc,
Hi, welcome to our little world here. Glad you have joined us. We need more of us that know of God's pure love.
I have pointed out John 3:16 to Frank and others many times. They prefer to see it as God being barbaric and having His son tortured and killed. They do seem to miss the fact that He was resurrected on the third day and ascended to heaven.
Oh....I missed that. He was resurrected on the third day and ascended into heaven.
So that makes it okay that your god required a sacrifice in order to get over his snit...and it makes it okay that a man was tortured and nailed to wood??????
Wake the hell up!
John 3:16 should disgust...not edify...anyone thinking clearly.
Quote:I do have a question for Frank and those that believe how John 3:16 is not about God's love. I suppose if Jesus had died of pneumonia instead of crucifixion you might think God was less barbaric? But, I suppose if he had died of some illness not many would have noticed nor understood the sacrifice.
WHY SHOULD THERE BE A SACRIFICE????????????????
Why, if your idiot god wants to forgive humans for being human....does it not simply forgive them? Why the need for a sacrifice? And why something as barbaric as this?
Quote:God is alive and in my life every minute of every day. I know He exists. It's not a guess. It's a fact.
Oh horseshyt!
You can't even be truthful about something as evident as that...and you dare to give lectures to others on their ethics.
Quote:And yes loandoc, it does make you realize just how much you are blessed, doesn't it? I have often thought how sad it is for those here that are so far from God. I couldn't imagine my life without Him in it.
Hang in there, you are in for some heavy hits, but it's the norm for a few in here.
Momma Angel
Don't worry, Doc. You will have plenty of people like MA to applaud every time time your grovel to that pathetic god you people worship. You can handle the stuff we opponents will dish out.
This would be where the armour comes in handy.
thanks for the welcome MA, i save the Armour for the heavy stuff, Frank is a good guy doing GODS work in his own way by raising these types of discussions he just does not realize it.
I have posed that to him myself. Sometimes I feel he is the best argument for believing in God. Just makes my heart hurt for him.
theloandoc wrote:thanks for the welcome MA, i save the Armour for the heavy stuff, Frank is a good guy doing GODS work in his own way by raising these types of discussions he just does not realize it.
Funny...I feel...and have expressed...the reverse sentiment on many, many occasions. I think the theists...particularly the Christians...are doing more to cast doubts on all this superstitious nonsense than we agnostics are able to do on our own.
Christianity only works if you don't question it...which is the reason most priests, ministers and such will advise against participating in these kinds of fora. Christianity is little more than superstition...and each attempt to defend it merely reveals more chinks in the armor.
Love to have you here, Doc. I hope we become good friends.
Despite what MA says...I love you, her...and all the other poor deluded dupes.
Honestly.
thanks Frank,
riddle me this. agnostic is latin for " to not know" or without knowledge if so why direspect that which we do not know?
