Should we handle victory the way the Christian god decrees?

I do not get into the politics of the war. The only thing that matters is we have troops over there fighting for God and country. They are doing their duty as stated in their oath.

What is important is that they are there and they deserve our support. I had a very dear friend in Iraq. His unit lost 7 men in one day. He has not complained one time about why they are there, etc.

Their unit was part of the protection forces for election day. I received an email from him that night that said "You can be proud of your soldiers. History was made today. I am proud to be an American."

I am sure there probably are troops there that don't agree with the war; however, they are still doing their duty. I support the troops. They deserve our love, encouragement, and support.

Yes, the Bible says turn the other cheek and love one another. We are also told that we are to pray for and follow our leaders. I will not speak against the President. I will not get into the politics of the war.

I have no idea where your other citizenship lies. Your avatar gives me no clue.

Do I think Jesus would bomb Iraq? Since Jesus does not advocate violence in any way, I would say no.

I will not speak against our President. I am proud to be an American. I am proud to call Mr. Bush president.

You are confused, dear. So many boys are willing to fight that the Army is having a major recruitment problem. The first one since 1979. Over 5500 guys are going AWOL because they don't appreciate being lied to. READ THE FOLLOWING IF YOU DARE AND YOUR PACEMAKER CAN HANDLE IT:

History once again repeats itself as 60 Minutes recently reported that 5,500 US soldiers have deserted their posts since the Iraq war began. Many of those have turned up in Canada seeking asylum.
During the Vietnam war, tens of thousands of Americans who were drafted fled to Canada to avoid serving in a war they didn't believe in. With many soldiers realizing that the war in Iraq was not about protecting America from non-existent Weapons of Mass Destruction, but rather about securing more oil for US corporations, they are leaving their posts in droves.

These numbers also tell a story about the morale of those soldiers on the ground in Iraq who've been lied to by their government and held much longer than originally promised in Iraq.

The American public has likewise been lied to, and thus it's taking a very long time for people to mobilize in opposition to the war. What happened to all those who came out in opposition before the war? Where are the protests like we saw during Vietnam when up to 500,000 people came out one day in the biggest protest against that war?

In Europe MILLIONS came out against the US & British & Spanish involvement in the war. Yet Americans seem to be either so ignorant or apathetic or still supporting this illegal war.

America where is your voice against this injustice & state sponsored terrorism?

More Info: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/12/06/60II/main659336.shtml
*********************************
When you 'leaders' lie, it's time to retrench. You say on one hand that Jesus did not advocate violence in anyway. So, again, how do you justify the killing in Iraq? Are you following the Old Test. or the New? The Old Test. was nailed to the cross so to speak, Jesus died. Do you think God is telling Bushie what to do? Are you sure? Satan speaks too. Too bad God didn't tell Bush to get his butt to New Orleans sooner.

I won't try to change your mind about Bush. You are too far gone for that. Obviously you don't want to read anything that might upset your view of him. But, something tells me that you know he's wrong. Anyone who is so opposed to looking at all sides of an issue is either ignorant or afraid of the truth. Which are you? Your rights are being taken away at an alarming rate because of the Patriot Act- which is anything but. The right to peaceful protest is gone. Mr. Bush is dangerous and no different from Hitler. He had his supporters too.
I suggest you take your blinders off and do some research. Start with the Carlyle Group (Bush/bin Laden family connections here), Patriot Act, Halliburton (Cheney/Bush are making lots of $$ from this war, lady). Try a 'google' search. You should get results in seconds that will open your eyes. Heil Bush/Heil Hitler. Same thing.

Wow, just a couple of posts between us and you know how I think and really feel? So, you are psychic too?

You still have not answered me as to where your other citizenship lies. Is there a reason for that?

Oh, and BTW, I don't have a pacemaker.

And oh yes, let's blame the president for Katrina, Rita, and every other thing we can think of.

And as far as our right to peaceful protest goes, ask Cindy Sheehan. I think she's doing pretty good at protesting, don't you?

You would equate Bush with Hitler? You would equate anyone with Hitler? Hitler killed over six million Jews. Bush is not out to eradicate a race of people.

You have your opinions, and I have mine. You don't have to agree with mine and I don't have to agree with yours.

I am in contact with many units in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Kuwait. I have yet to hear one of them complain and speak against the president.

I would take their word over the media or you anyday.

Momma Angel writes:


And what is one to do if the first command conflicts with the second? Which one did Jesus say? Which one is promoted by the Republican National Committee?

You will not speak against any President or just this one?


Those are the words of the slave.

How about the morality of the war? Will you speak on the justice, not the justification, of this war? Pretend to be the believer you are, but from some distant country. Can this war be seen as moral, as just, as Christian?

Joe(slaves seldom speak about reality, they obey.)Nation

And when we win our wars in the future...should we do as the god of the Bible suggests (slaughter every male survivor and enslave the women and children)...

...or not?

Absolutely, Frank, we want to be Biblical about all our actions.

I've stopped eating that which crawleth on the floor of the sea.

Joe(no more lobster bibs for me)Nation

I ain't givin' up no lobsters or scampi for no god!

I have already said I will not get into the poltiics of the war.

I am a slave to no one. I just have differing views than you do.

I am not going to engage in a battle with anyone here.

MA, have you never heard of censorship? Please check this thread to see how even the slightest hint of truth getting out is shut down. If you cannot read all five of the posts, at least check the last two.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=964638#964638

I also hope you have not forgotten this frank post from snood.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1512283#1512283

Mesquite,

Yes, there are those that are fighting this war and don't want to be there, don't feel they should be there, and don't want to go there.

I know how Snood feels and I respect him for his feelings about this. The fact that he feels going to war in this war is wrong takes away none of the respect that I have for him.

I guess it just seems that so many don't understand something about me. I don't feel anyone has to be wrong or right in this. The only thing that I worry about is the fact that our the soldiers that are over there and will do whatever I can to support them. I have never and will never get into the politics of the war with them.

I adore Snood. He's an honest forthright man standing up for what he believes. What is not to respect about that? Do you know how hard it probably was for him to post that? I would imagine it was not easy for him at all. But, he had the courage of his convictions to do it. Now, I pray everyday that Snood does not have to be deployed because it would cause him such turmoil physically and emotionally.

So please, understand this, it's not the right or wrong of the war that concerns me. The fact is, we are in the war. That's just fact. Now, my duty (IMO) as an american citizen is to respect the decisions of other American citizens as to whether or not they will be involved in the war. It's not my place to judge them. I hate war. I hate any war. I hate the fact that I know so many in Iraq right now and pray for them constantly and keep them in my thoughts always. But, I support them by letting them know that I will do whatever I can to make their deployment easier in any way that I can.

Good arguments, all of you. But Ma ain't ready to listen to reason, I reckon. You know what they say, there's one born every minute and Georgie needs every one of em. (wink)

She is obviously afraid to look past her nose because the truth is right there: online, on TV, radio, and zeitgeist in the US. I imagine she only watches the 700 Club/PTL , praises God and Bush and that's that. She completely missed my comment about 'where was Bush when the hurricane disaster hit' and said 'how could I blame him for that'. Did I blame him, ma, or ask WHY it took him so long to DO something? We Canadians were on the spot before most people. But I don't remember seeing white folks sitting on rooftops. However, that is another thread.

For some weird reason she can't figure out where I live but most of you have. Does she think I'm Muslim? No big deal - I live in B.C. Bet she doesn't know where that is either. I am proud to be Canadian after enduring living in the states most of my life. I have family in the states, and actually have family fighting in Iraq who don't want to be there. But they are stuck there because they were LIED to about how long they would have to sign up. Maybe they will join the thousands going AWOL.

It is sad that some people are so dense, especially in this day and age of information. There is no excuse for such ignorance. Ma completely ignored my questions: how do you rationalize a war and 'turn the other cheek'? She sees no parallels between Hitler and Bush. Sure, Bush has not killed millions, yet, only thousands. Give him time. He hasn't started on Iran, Syria, N. Korea yet. But parallels have been drawn between the two men, and not by myself. She apparently does not read much else besides Reader's Digest. If that.

Yes, support the troops, you bet. Bring them home and end this travesty.

Excerpt from 'Huckleberry Finn', for ole Ma from Louisiana: (who probably won't read/respond as she has no argument)

Buck explains this foreign concept to Huck (aka: George Jaxon): "Well, says Buck, "a feud is this way: A man has a quarrel with another man, and kills him; then that other man's brother kills him; then the other brothers, on both sides, goes for one another; then the cousins chip in -and by and by everybody's killed off, and there ain't no more feud. But it's kind of slow, and takes a long time."
(LIKE IN IRAQ, MA).

Poor simple Huck just has a world of trouble understanding how such god-fearing folks can embrace killing other god-fearing folks without any doubts as to whether this is Christian behavior. Of course, the way Twain writes it, slicing right through and laying it bare on the table, the reader marvels at how such people can live in their own skins, riddled with hypocrisy as they are.

Yup, a hypocrite. Through an through.

I find that most people who are so eager to pigeonhole and then blithely cast aside the views of another on this war are terribly shallow. They are by and large not personally affected (themselves, or immediate family members are not presently serving, and none intend to anytime soon), and they can easily put everyone into black-and-white, all-or-nothing groups for their little academic arguments. I think momma appreciates the ironies and conflicts that living in this country, and especially serving in the military in this country, can give rise to in the heart of a person with a conscience. Someone who joined the army for reasons of survival and economics, has served there for years, is trying to maintain some sense of personal dignity and sanity - that person doesn't have the casual luxury of simply labeling the whole endeavor as "silly" and snubbing his nose. If someone has a son or daughter serving in a forward position in Iraq, whether they personally do or do not believe in the stated impetus for the conflict, that mother or father does not have the option of clicking a few keyboard strokes and disdainfully characterizing all participants in the war, as if they are coequally liable as their commander-in-chief.
Decent people who have some maturity can grasp that, to those not fortunate enough to airily view the Iraq war from some pristine perch, real decisions about what is and is not a 'right' course of personal action are not that damn easy.
The others just shoot off their mouths (Huck Finn?)with no concept of, or concern about anything but how terribly erudite they come across in cyberspace.

Englishmajor Wrote:



How sad that because someone does not view things as you do, you would lower yourself to labeling them.

How sad that you cannot defend or explain any of the questions directed at you.

I didn't label you. I stated facts. There is a difference. Too bad you don't know the difference.

I think maybe you should read your post to me again (the one where you say I bet she doesn't know where that is either.) Seems to me you are labeling me as one who might not be as intelligent as you obviously consider yourself to be.

I told you, I will not get into the politics of this war.

Oh, and as far as reading anything either than the Reader's Digest. I happen to read between five or six books every week.

Hi Frank,

This is an epic thread, one that I have followed from page one. Thank you.

May I suggest that you're being too kind about this Sarah business. You have allowed for this story, occupying a few sparse verses in Genesis 17, to be an exception to your challenge to not find a threatening god on the scene.

It was even posited by MA that Sarah, 90 years old, was wanting a child. There is nothing in those verses to support this. I agree with Phoenix, what 90 year old woman would wish for this? What a burden.

Where is the kindness in this story? I wish you would retract your exception.

Regards,

tycoon

Here MA, read it and weep:

Published on Friday, October 7, 2005 by the Associated Press
Poll: Key Groups in Bush's Political Coalition Grow Worried About Direction of Nation
by Will Lester

WASHINGTON - Evangelicals, Republican women, Southerners and other critical groups in President Bush's political coalition are increasingly worried about the direction the nation is headed and disappointed with his performance, an AP-Ipsos poll found.
The growing unease could be a troubling sign for a White House already struggling to keep the Republican Party base from slipping over Supreme Court nominee Harriet Miers, Gulf Coast spending projects, immigration and other issues.

Politically, this is very serious for the president. If the base of his party has lost faith, that could spell trouble for his policy agenda and for the party generally.

James Thurber, a political scientist at American University
"Politically, this is very serious for the president," said James Thurber, a political scientist at American University. "If the base of his party has lost faith, that could spell trouble for his policy agenda and for the party generally."

Public sentiment about the nation's direction has sunk to new depths at a time people are anxious about Iraq, the economy, gas prices and the management of billions of dollars being spent for recovery from the nation's worst natural disaster.

Only 28 percent say the country is headed in the right direction while two-thirds, 66 percent, say it is on the wrong track, the poll found.

Those most likely to have lost confidence about the nation's direction over the past year include white evangelicals, down 30 percentage points, Republican women, 28 points, Southerners, 26 points, and suburban men, 20 points.

Bush's supporters are uneasy about issues including federal deficits, immigration and his latest nomination for the Supreme Court. Social conservatives are concerned about his choice of Miers, a relatively unknown lawyer who has most recently served as White House counsel.

"Bush is trying to get more support generally from the American public by seeming more moderate and showing he's a strong leader at the same time he has a rebellion within his own party," Thurber said. "The far right is starting to be very open about their claim that he's not a real conservative."

The president's job approval is mired at the lowest level of his presidency - 39 percent. While four of five Republicans say they approve of Bush's job performance - enthusiasm in that support has dipped over the last year.

Almost two-thirds of Republicans strongly approved of the job done by Bush in December 2004, soon after his re-election. The AP-Ipsos survey found that just half in his own party feel that way now.

The intensity of support for Bush's job performance has also dropped sharply among white evangelicals, Southerners, people from rural areas and suburban men.

"We've lost focus on where we're supposed to be going and not able to respond to the crises that affect the people of this country," said David Ernest, a Republican from San Ramon, Calif., who is angry about the government's response to Hurricane Katrina. "We're mired in a Middle Eastern adventure and we've taken the focus off of our own country."

Bush has tried to reassure conservatives about his Supreme Court nominee. He's also trying to counter critics of the war by tying U.S. efforts in Iraq to the larger war against terrorism. And he's made frequent trips to the areas devastated by hurricanes Katrina and Rita to offset criticism of the government's initial response to Katrina.

Even those efforts get viewed with suspicion by some.

"I just think the president is doing things for political reasons, not what's right for the people," said Traci Wallace, a Democrat from Tallahassee, Fla. "Every time he makes a trip to the hurricane zone, he's blowing a million dollars."

Of all the problems facing the country, the continuing war in Iraq is the one that troubles some Bush supporters the most.

"I approve of what the president is doing, but it's a mixed decision," said Richard Saulinski, a Republican from Orland Park, Ill. "We should get out of Iraq. It seems like there's no light at the end of the tunnel. I just think we're dealing with a culture we don't really understand."

The poll of 1,000 adults was conducted by Ipsos, an international polling company, from Monday to Wednesday and has a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.

AP manager of news surveys Trevor Tompson contributed to this story.

On the Net:
Ipsos: http://www.ap-ipsosresults.com


© 2005 Associated Press

See, Ma, even the "duh wilbers" are finally getting the idea that Bush is a psycho. Read more newspapers and less paperbacks.