Should we handle victory the way the Christian god decrees?

Momma Angel wrote:

Intrepid,

I am sorry if I made it look like that. Believe me, that was not my intent. I am asking you because I am not going to address Frank directly. Perhaps it would be best if I just ignored what he says at all. I certainly do not want to cause any confusion.

I value your feedback on my questions, as I feel your feedback is quite objective. Please forgive me for any confusion or misrepresentation this may have caused for you. IN NO WAY WOULD I WANT ANYONE TO THINK YOU POST THE TRASH FRANK DOES!

I know you are not being critical, you never are. You have helped me tremendously with your help.

Momma Angel,
Thank you for your reply. If I may make a suggestion, just put so-and-so wrote: in front of the quote when you are only quoting portions. That way there will be no confusion.

Quite frankly (no pun intended ;-) ) I sometimes wonder if he realizes what he is posting. As long as it is hateful, trashing somebody, using foul language or picking and choosing verses from the bible that he thinks will fit his agena...Frank is in a state of bliss.

I replied regarding Leviticus etc. and Frank feigns ignorance or asks what the ____ does this have to do with his statement. I thought it had a lot to do with his statement, but I am only a pea brained Christian who Frank looks down upon from his lofty tower.

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Intrepid,

No problem. I can do that!

And, as far as Frank's response about what that had to do with it? Well, I find that whenever a valid point is made that tends to disagree or discredit Frank's position, he ignores it. I have noticed that throughout these threads.

I really am not as dense as he thinks I am. Laughing

Thanx for understanding!

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:
Just know that you have many in your army.

Army? Are you at war?What is it exactly are you fighting?

Ephesians 6:12
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Ephesians 6:11-13

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Snood ~

Salute! and Amen!

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Proverbs 4:19 The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble.

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I have to share this! I am having the most amazing day! God is doing the most amazing things today! woo hoo!

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Momma Angel wrote:

I have to share this! I am having the most amazing day! God is doing the most amazing things today! woo hoo!

1 Peter 3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:

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Snood,

I know this is off topic but I don't have pm privileges yet. So forgive me for straying everyone.

Have you read "Stepping Out of Denial into God's Grace" by John Baker? (A recovery program based on eight principles from the Beatitudes?)

Momma Angel

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Frank wrote:

I would like to concentrate on the challenge I mentioned that I have put to all the other Christians in this thread. Perhaps you would like to deal with it, Shock.

It is my contention that whenever the Bible describes its god in action...doing and speaking...when the god is on the scene...

...is either punishing, threatening, killing, or requiring others to kill in its name.

I know of only one small passage that has the god showing any kind of appreciation for the human predicament...and none that show the god as the kind, compassionate, humanity loving god you folks claim it to be.

Can you produce two passages from the Bible where the primary thrust of the situtation being described is NOT the god punishing, threatening, killing or requiring others to kill in its name?

Remember...we are talking about the god of the Bible...the god Jesus worshipped...and we want it to be the god in action...rather than someone sucking up to the god by giving it credit for some thing or another.

First of all, you make a distinction between Jesus and God which I do not, but in deference to your request, I won't use the many miracles Jesus performed. I also see that you don't want to deal with creation, so I won't argue that. Finally you don't want acts where God is punishing, threatening, killing, or requiring others to kill in His name. What you're left with is a myriad of verses where God is dealing in an individuals life, blessing them with prosperity, children, health, good fortune, protection, etc.

This is surely an incomplete list, I eventually tired of the exerciseNote that humans are often the tools God uses in the Bible, but in deference to your question, I did not include the hundreds of passages that talk to humans helping other humans because of their faith or because God directed them to.

Ge 20:17
Abraham prayed to God, and God healed Abimelech and his wife and his maids, so that they bore children.

Ge 24:1
Now Abraham was old, advanced in age; and the LORD had blessed Abraham in every way.

Ge 25:11
It came about after the death of Abraham, that God blessed his son Isaac; and Isaac lived by Beer-lahai-roi.

Ge 25:21
Isaac prayed to the LORD on behalf of his wife, because she was barren; and the LORD answered him and Rebekah his wife conceived.

Ge 26:12
Now Isaac sowed in that land and reaped in the same year a hundredfold *. And the LORD blessed him,

Ge 29:31
Now the LORD saw that Leah was unloved, and He opened her womb, but Rachel was barren.

Ge 30:17
God gave heed to Leah, and she conceived and bore Jacob a fifth son

Ge 39:3
Now his master saw that the LORD was with him and how the LORD caused all that he did to prosper in his hand.

Ge 39:21
But the LORD was with Joseph and extended kindness to him, and gave him favor in the sight of the chief jailer *.

Ex 14:19
The angel of God, who had been going before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind * them; and the pillar of cloud moved from before * them and stood behind * them.

Jos 4:14
On that day the LORD exalted Joshua in the sight of all Israel; so that they revered him, just as they had revered Moses all the days of his life .

Jud 15:19
But God split the hollow place that is in Lehi so that water came out of it. When he drank, his strength returned and he revived . Therefore * he named * it En-hakkore, which is in Lehi to this day.

1Sa 23:14
David stayed in the wilderness in the strongholds, and remained in the hill country in the wilderness of Ziph. And Saul sought him every day, but God did not deliver him into his hand.

2Sa 5:12
And David realized that the LORD had established him as king over Israel, and that He had exalted his kingdom for the sake of His people Israel.

1Ki 4:29
Now God gave Solomon wisdom and very great discernment and breadth of mind, like the sand that is on the seashore *.

2Ch 36:15
The LORD, the God of their fathers, sent word to them again and again by His messengers, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place;

Da 1:9
Now God granted Daniel favor and compassion in the sight of the commander of the officials,

Da 1:17
As for these four youths, God gave them knowledge and intelligence in every branch of literature and wisdom; Daniel even understood all kinds of visions and dreams.

Da 6:22
"My God sent His angel and shut the lions' mouths and they have not harmed me, inasmuch * * as I was found innocent before Him; and also toward you, O king, I have committed no crime."

Jon 3:10
When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it.

Jon 4:6
So the LORD God appointed a plant and it grew up over * Jonah to be a shade over his head to deliver him from his discomfort . And Jonah was extremely * happy about the plant.

Joh 1:6
There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.

Ac 19:11
God was performing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul,

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You go slkshock7!

Armour securely in place? Check.
Armed with the Word? Check

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Momma Angel wrote:

Laughing I'm with you there! Ok, but is there anything wrong with offering the opportunity for learning those values? Make it fair for everyone. Let prayers stay in schools and provide a place for those that wish to participate. Those that don't wish to participate don't have to. Kind of like, well, if you don't believe in abortion, don't get one? That is just an example.

I am not for forcing schoolchildren to pray if they don't want to. It's their choice. But, if it is taken totally out of the schools then that is not a compromise, is it? Only one side of the situation gets their rights and the other doesn't.

As I understand it the restriction on school prayer has to do with the teachers leading the children in public prayer. If a child has a compelling need to pray, I do not see the schools preventing it unless some elaborate ceremony is involved.

IMO prayer should be for the home and churches. It would be virtually impossible for schools to sponsor prayer without favoring a religion, group, sect, denomination, whatever.

Your example about abortion is not at all in the same class. The restriction on prayer is only on the sponsorship of prayer not on the act of prayer itself.

Would you be in favor of prayer in school if the prayer was rotated each day so that no favoritism could be shown? Catholic, Buddhist, Protestant, Islamic, Hindu, Wiccan, Voodoo, etc. It is a bucket of worms that our founding fathers tried to prevent.

Momma Angel wrote:

Is it really so offensive to see the Ten Commandments on a wall in a courthouse? You don't have to read them if you don't want to. But, they can be there for those that do.

Yes, it is very offensive in a court of law. I have no objection to symbolism such as in the US Supreme Court[/b]. But when you get down to the specific words the first problem is Which Ten Commandments[/b] do you want to display? Once you are over that hurdle the next problem is that four of the commandments (three for the catholic version) are contradicted by our laws and three (four for the catholic version) are ignored by our laws. That leaves only three don't murder, don't steal, and don't perjure which have any meaning to our laws and they are common sense laws that would be required in any governed society. In addition to that, the second one just ticks me off whenever I see it. It reminds me so much of the Taliban.

"2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any
graven image, or any likeness of any
thing that is in heaven above, or that
is in the earth beneath, or that is in
the water under the earth: Thou shalt
not bow down thyself to them, nor
serve them: for I the Lord thy God am
a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of
the fathers upon the children unto the
third and fourth generation of them
that hate me; And showing mercy
unto thousands of them that love me,
and keep my commandments."

The Ten Commandments issue, school prayer, and gay marriage are just hot button issues used by the religious right to get people worked up and garner support. These issues in reality have no substance other than emotional appeal.

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I agree with Mesquite. Any child who wants to pray independently is certainly able to do so. I have absolutely no problem with that. The point is that the school staff should not lead the prayers.

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Mesquite Wrote:

Quote:

As I understand it the restriction on school prayer has to do with the teachers leading the children in public prayer. If a child has a compelling need to pray, I do not see the schools preventing it unless some elaborate ceremony is involved.

IMO prayer should be for the home and churches. It would be virtually impossible for schools to sponsor prayer without favoring a religion, group, sect, denomination, whatever.

Your example about abortion is not at all in the same class. The restriction on prayer is only on the sponsorship of prayer not on the act of prayer itself.

Would you be in favor of prayer in school if the prayer was rotated each day so that no favoritism could be shown? Catholic, Buddhist, Protestant, Islamic, Hindu, Wiccan, Voodoo, etc. It is a bucket of worms that our founding fathers tried to prevent.

Momma Angel wrote:

Quote:
Is it really so offensive to see the Ten Commandments on a wall in a courthouse? You don't have to read them if you don't want to. But, they can be there for those that do.

Yes, it is very offensive in a court of law. I have no objection to symbolism such as in the US Supreme Court. But when you get down to the specific words the first problem is Which Ten Commandments do you want to display? Once you are over that hurdle the next problem is that four of the commandments (three for the catholic version) are contradicted by our laws and three (four for the catholic version) are ignored by our laws. That leaves only three don't murder, don't steal, and don't perjure which have any meaning to our laws and they are common sense laws that would be required in any governed society. In addition to that, the second one just ticks me off whenever I see it. It reminds me so much of the Taliban.

"2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any
graven image, or any likeness of any
thing that is in heaven above, or that
is in the earth beneath, or that is in
the water under the earth: Thou shalt
not bow down thyself to them, nor
serve them: for I the Lord thy God am
a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of
the fathers upon the children unto the
third and fourth generation of them
that hate me; And showing mercy
unto thousands of them that love me,
and keep my commandments."

The Ten Commandments issue, school prayer, and gay marriage are just hot button issues used by the religious right to get people worked up and garner support. These issues in reality have no substance other than emotional appeal.

Well, there need not be any elaborate ceremony. What about silent prayer? Would that not allow anyone that wants to pray (to whomever they want) to do it and it would not be inflicting themselves on anyone else?

I know that was not a good example about the abortion. It's all that came to mind right then. Oops.

Well, I suppose it offends you because you do not share a belief? a faith? what do you call it? in God.

But, removing the Ten Commandments completely is supporting only your rights and not mine. I want them there. You don't. So, what do we do? I suggest you just don't read them. If you don't like them fine. I don't understand why you want to push so much to take away something others believe. Religion is there for those that want it. Faith is there for those that want it. Agnosticism is there for those that want it. Why can't you just ignore it and let people have their choice? And I suppose you will want to say that to me about abortion? Well, I don't consider the Ten Commandments a sin, so they can't be equated.

Hot button issues used by the religious right to get people worked up to garner support? If these issues in reality have no substance other than emotional appeal, why are you arguing so strongly for your side?

And, if you will go back through some of the posts in this thread, I think it's pretty clear which side is getting worked up.

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

I agree with Mesquite. Any child who wants to pray independently is certainly able to do so. I have absolutely no problem with that. The point is that the school staff should not lead the prayers.

Here in Canada a Christian Youth group wanted to have a lunchtime prayer group in the school. Away from everybody else so as not to infringe on any other religious beliefs. The school board would not allow it on school property at all.

When I was a boy, we had prayer in school and thought it was as normal as singing God Save the Queen each morning. Granted, things were different then. Most school children were Christian. Today we have a wide range of religions in the school. As well, teachers are of varying religious or non-religious groups.

For this reason, I am not against the lack of prayer in school. I am against, schools not allowing a quiet place for those of ANY religion to have a quiet prayer time.

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MommaAngel wrote:

But, removing the Ten Commandments completely is supporting only your rights and not mine. I want them there. You don't. So, what do we do? I suggest you just don't read them. If you don't like them fine.

How would you feel about schools having pictures and sculptures from religious traditions other than Christianity? I am sure that there are some Muslims, Hindus etc. who might feel uncomfortable being faced with an artifact from the Judaeo-Christian tradition in a public school. Would You want a statue of Buddha in a public school? Or some writings from the Koran?

http://photos27.flickr.com/35203738_20e8f0f546.jpg

How would you feel if children saw this when the were at school?

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Phoenix,

Why not? If I don't like them, I don't have to look at them or read them. What's the big deal?

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M.A.- IMO, the "big deal" an organization (the public school) funded by all our citizens' taxes should not give the appearance of promoting ANY religion, or lack of religion.

Religion DOES have a place in society, in homes, in houses of worship, and in private gatherings. IMO, it has NO place in publicly funded establishments.

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But aren't those publicly funded establishments funded by those in society? In homes? In houses of worship and in private gatherings?

Still, you would have the law changed to accommodate you (your side, etc.) and ignore the rights of me, (our side, etc.)?

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As long as the rules are equitable for everyone, I do not have a problem with Phoenix's position on this.
Let me give you a small example of this in reverse. Our City, for years, had a lighted sign on the top of the mountain that read "Merry Christmas". A couple years ago, they changed it to "Hqppy Holidays" because they had complaints from certain groups. In this case, Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Christ...not just a winter holiday. They literally took Christ out of Christmas. Last year, the city changed back to the original sign.

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Should we handle victory the way the Christian god decrees?

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