Should we handle victory the way the Christian god decrees?

but don't see Frank or cicerone coming around by arguments of doctrine.

What is that supposed to mean?

Ok, let's see, no, they should not be banned from participating in church services. Jesus would never ban anyone from attending a church service. Yes, I agree they should not be in the clergy because I believe it is a sin and our clergy should be held to high standards.

SilkShock wrote:

Quote:

but don't see Frank or cicerone coming around by arguments of doctrine.

Frank Apisa wrote:

What is that supposed to mean?

He means, Frank, that apologetics per se won't ever soften your heart to the point where you see God's goodness and splendor and thus worship Him. No matter how many answers you might get to your "questions," those would not bring you to Him. The Pharisees were the same way.

I know, bec. it wasn't apologetics that brought me to Him. Apologetics are most useful AFTER a person's come to faith.

Mesquite Wrote:

Quote:

I see news items about some church groups bickering about allowing gay and lesbians to participate in their congregations ceremonies or clergy. I see the President recommending a constitutional ammendment to prevent same sex marriages. I believe I recall even you saying that you opposed same sex marriages. All of that would seem contrary to the message of Jesus as I understand it, but then we can always check back to the Old Testament for clarification can't we? The arguements used to discriminate against gays and lesbians today seem not much different to me than the ones for slavery or segregation yesterday.

Ok, let's see, no, they should not be banned from participating in church services. Jesus would never ban anyone from attending a church service. Yes, I agree they should not be in the clergy because I believe it is a sin and our clergy should be held to high standards. Catholic priests who have been found to be molesting children have harmed the Catholic faith not to mention what it has done to those children. I do not believe in same sex marriage. And how is being against same sex marriage and homosexuality contrary to Christ's teachings? I do not recall it being said anywhere in the OT or the NT that homosexuality is ok. I Corinthians 6:9 clearly points out that homosexuality is a sin against God. Did He not say, "hate the sin and not the sinner?" It is not the individual we should hate, it is the sin. I will never change my views on homosexuality not being a sin in God's eyes. However, that does not give me the right to do them harm. It does give me the right to lobby for what I believe is right, just as you have the right to lobby for what you believe is right.

If the law is changed to allow same sex marriage then it will be legal. But, just because it is legal does not mean that I have to believe it is right.

I do my best to treat everyone with respect and dignity, I have every right to not like some of the things they do, just as they do with me.

Momma Angel wrote:

Mesquite Wrote:

Quote:

I see news items about some church groups bickering about allowing gay and lesbians to participate in their congregations ceremonies or clergy. I see the President recommending a constitutional ammendment to prevent same sex marriages. I believe I recall even you saying that you opposed same sex marriages. All of that would seem contrary to the message of Jesus as I understand it, but then we can always check back to the Old Testament for clarification can't we? The arguements used to discriminate against gays and lesbians today seem not much different to me than the ones for slavery or segregation yesterday.

Ok, let's see, no, they should not be banned from participating in church services. Jesus would never ban anyone from attending a church service. Yes, I agree they should not be in the clergy because I believe it is a sin and our clergy should be held to high standards. Catholic priests who have been found to be molesting children have harmed the Catholic faith not to mention what it has done to those children. I do not believe in same sex marriage. And how is being against same sex marriage and homosexuality contrary to Christ's teachings? I do not recall it being said anywhere in the OT or the NT that homosexuality is ok. I Corinthians 6:9 clearly points out that homosexuality is a sin against God. Did He not say, "hate the sin and not the sinner?" It is not the individual we should hate, it is the sin. I will never change my views on homosexuality not being a sin in God's eyes. However, that does not give me the right to do them harm. It does give me the right to lobby for what I believe is right, just as you have the right to lobby for what you believe is right.

If the law is changed to allow same sex marriage then it will be legal. But, just because it is legal does not mean that I have to believe it is right.

I do my best to treat everyone with respect and dignity, I have every right to not like some of the things they do, just as they do with me.

Interesting considering the advice the god of the Bible gives regarding this:


"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be
put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their
lives." Leviticus 20:13



Well...I guess if you don't like one of the god's commandments...you just disregard it...and actually brag about disregarding it.

Frank Apisa wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:

Mesquite Wrote:

Quote:

I see news items about some church groups bickering about allowing gay and lesbians to participate in their congregations ceremonies or clergy. I see the President recommending a constitutional ammendment to prevent same sex marriages. I believe I recall even you saying that you opposed same sex marriages. All of that would seem contrary to the message of Jesus as I understand it, but then we can always check back to the Old Testament for clarification can't we? The arguements used to discriminate against gays and lesbians today seem not much different to me than the ones for slavery or segregation yesterday.

Ok, let's see, no, they should not be banned from participating in church services. Jesus would never ban anyone from attending a church service. Yes, I agree they should not be in the clergy because I believe it is a sin and our clergy should be held to high standards. Catholic priests who have been found to be molesting children have harmed the Catholic faith not to mention what it has done to those children. I do not believe in same sex marriage. And how is being against same sex marriage and homosexuality contrary to Christ's teachings? I do not recall it being said anywhere in the OT or the NT that homosexuality is ok. I Corinthians 6:9 clearly points out that homosexuality is a sin against God. Did He not say, "hate the sin and not the sinner?" It is not the individual we should hate, it is the sin. I will never change my views on homosexuality not being a sin in God's eyes. However, that does not give me the right to do them harm. It does give me the right to lobby for what I believe is right, just as you have the right to lobby for what you believe is right.

If the law is changed to allow same sex marriage then it will be legal. But, just because it is legal does not mean that I have to believe it is right.

I do my best to treat everyone with respect and dignity, I have every right to not like some of the things they do, just as they do with me.

Interesting considering the advice the god of the Bible gives regarding this:


"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be
put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their
lives." Leviticus 20:13



Well...I guess if you don't like one of the god's commandments...you just disregard it...and actually brag about disregarding it.

There has been suggestion that the laws in Leviticus were directed towards the Priests. While this is true (they had a even higher standard to maintain) it was still directed to the people of Israel.

It has been mentioned about gays and lesbians being able to be part of the clergy and how hypocritical it is not to allow this. Should those who avail themselves of prostitutes, alcoholics, etc. also be part of the clergy? The clergy are to be the example for the people and hold to even higher standards than the general populace. Don't bother mentioning that this is not always the case, because I already know that. We know that there are those who should not be part of the clergy who already are.

Regarding Leviticus. To have so many crimes punishable by death may seem rather harsh today, but these offenses were in deliberate defiance of God's holy law.

Israel was instructed not to imitate the nations around them, such as the Ammonites who offered children as a burnt sacrifice to Molech. God had separated Israel from the nations for the all-important reason of preserving the knowledge and worship of himself as the true God.

In Canaan, worship was commonly tied to prostitution and fertility rites. However, for Israel, anything suggesting the sexual or sensual was strictly banned from the worship of God. This does not mean that this aspect of life is unclean. The purpose is to ensure its separation from the worship of God. The rule of strict cleanliness in all sexual matters would also contribute to health.

Many of these laws are directed against the practices of Israel's neighbors. For example, marriage between those closely related by blood or by marriage was forbidden by God. In Egypt, which had little marital regulation, such marriages were common.

Adultery, child sacrifice, homosexual relations and bestiality -- all part of the debased religions of Canaan -- were also forbidden. This was all done to separate God's chosen people from everything not holy.

Again, I will refer to the New Testament because that is where we read that Israel refused to accept God's ways. That is why the gentiles were also given the opportunity for salvation at that time.

What I have posted is not asking a question. It seems to explain much of the bible in terms that can be understood by anybody that can read the English language. Whether you wish to challenge the post is entirely up to you.

It explains why I have difficulty with the bible god and it's beliefs. It's about me: I like simplicity in my life; ideas that contradict any issue continues to be a curiosity for its own sake.

It's not necessary for you to respond one way or the other.

The Bible is consistent in that there is only one true God, although there are numerous gods that people have created over the millennia (e.g. Apollo, Zeus, Baal, etc.) All the passages you quoted are consistent and reflect God speaking to and of people who wrongly held that other gods existed.

What the hell does that have to do with what I said????

Just know that you have many in your army.

Interesting considering the advice the god of the Bible gives regarding this:

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be
put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their
lives." Leviticus 20:13

Well...I guess if you don't like one of the god's commandments...you just disregard it...and actually brag about disregarding it.

Intrepid,

Quote:

Interesting considering the advice the god of the Bible gives regarding this:

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be
put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their
lives." Leviticus 20:13

Well...I guess if you don't like one of the god's commandments...you just disregard it...and actually brag about disregarding it.

I am a bit confused. We are constantly being criticized for not being tolerant of gays. Yet, because we aren't out there killing them like the OLD TESTAMENT says we should do, we are then criticized for ignoring the law? Is that what you get from that statement?

So, the law that "someone" doesn't like in the first place is pointed out to us because we are NOT doing it?

HELP! I am totally not understanding that one.

Frank Apisa wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:

Mesquite Wrote:

Quote:

I see news items about some church groups bickering about allowing gay and lesbians to participate in their congregations ceremonies or clergy. I see the President recommending a constitutional ammendment to prevent same sex marriages. I believe I recall even you saying that you opposed same sex marriages. All of that would seem contrary to the message of Jesus as I understand it, but then we can always check back to the Old Testament for clarification can't we? The arguements used to discriminate against gays and lesbians today seem not much different to me than the ones for slavery or segregation yesterday.

Ok, let's see, no, they should not be banned from participating in church services. Jesus would never ban anyone from attending a church service. Yes, I agree they should not be in the clergy because I believe it is a sin and our clergy should be held to high standards. Catholic priests who have been found to be molesting children have harmed the Catholic faith not to mention what it has done to those children. I do not believe in same sex marriage. And how is being against same sex marriage and homosexuality contrary to Christ's teachings? I do not recall it being said anywhere in the OT or the NT that homosexuality is ok. I Corinthians 6:9 clearly points out that homosexuality is a sin against God. Did He not say, "hate the sin and not the sinner?" It is not the individual we should hate, it is the sin. I will never change my views on homosexuality not being a sin in God's eyes. However, that does not give me the right to do them harm. It does give me the right to lobby for what I believe is right, just as you have the right to lobby for what you believe is right.

If the law is changed to allow same sex marriage then it will be legal. But, just because it is legal does not mean that I have to believe it is right.

I do my best to treat everyone with respect and dignity, I have every right to not like some of the things they do, just as they do with me.

Interesting considering the advice the god of the Bible gives regarding this:


"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be
put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their
lives." Leviticus 20:13



Well...I guess if you don't like one of the god's commandments...you just disregard it...and actually brag about disregarding it.

There has been suggestion that the laws in Leviticus were directed towards the Priests. While this is true (they had a even higher standard to maintain) it was still directed to the people of Israel.

It has been mentioned about gays and lesbians being able to be part of the clergy and how hypocritical it is not to allow this. Should those who avail themselves of prostitutes, alcoholics, etc. also be part of the clergy? The clergy are to be the example for the people and hold to even higher standards than the general populace. Don't bother mentioning that this is not always the case, because I already know that. We know that there are those who should not be part of the clergy who already are.

Regarding Leviticus. To have so many crimes punishable by death may seem rather harsh today, but these offenses were in deliberate defiance of God's holy law.

Israel was instructed not to imitate the nations around them, such as the Ammonites who offered children as a burnt sacrifice to Molech. God had separated Israel from the nations for the all-important reason of preserving the knowledge and worship of himself as the true God.

In Canaan, worship was commonly tied to prostitution and fertility rites. However, for Israel, anything suggesting the sexual or sensual was strictly banned from the worship of God. This does not mean that this aspect of life is unclean. The purpose is to ensure its separation from the worship of God. The rule of strict cleanliness in all sexual matters would also contribute to health.

Many of these laws are directed against the practices of Israel's neighbors. For example, marriage between those closely related by blood or by marriage was forbidden by God. In Egypt, which had little marital regulation, such marriages were common.

Adultery, child sacrifice, homosexual relations and bestiality -- all part of the debased religions of Canaan -- were also forbidden. This was all done to separate God's chosen people from everything not holy.

Again, I will refer to the New Testament because that is where we read that Israel refused to accept God's ways. That is why the gentiles were also given the opportunity for salvation at that time.