Should we handle victory the way the Christian god decrees?

slkshock7 Wrote:

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My point is that we should argue the character of God (whether God is good or evil] but lets not complicate the argument needlessly by bringing in the existence of God. As I see it, we seem to be in violent agreement.

I know you were posting this to Frank, but I have to ask a question here. How can you argue the character of God without bringing in the existence of God? I, personally, wouldn't argue his character at all, but, I am a bit puzzled here.

So, are you just agreeing there either is or is not a God and if there is a God what is His character? I am just asking for clarification in case I am reading this incorrectly.

Now I really am confused!

"...the god is threatening people, killing them, ordering them to kill others...and in general, being a murderous, barbaric scumbag."

Could anyone, other than Frank, please tell me how this is not calling God a scumbag?

Now I really am confused!

"...the god is threatening people, killing them, ordering them to kill others...and in general, being a murderous, barbaric scumbag."

Could anyone, other than Frank, please tell me how this is not calling God a scumbag?

I'll take your word for that...for the benefit of this reply. But anytime I hear someone talk about what "God" should or should not be able to do...I MOST ASSUREDLY DO NOT TRANSLATE THAT INTO "THE god OF THE BIBLE."

Let's just keep those two things separate...unless you are prepared to establish with reasonable certainty that there is a GOD...and that the pitiful, cartoon god described in the Bible is that GOD.

If you want to discuss God with me...do so. If you want to discuss the god of the Bible with me...do so.

If you want to mix the two up...do so....but I will point it out every time.

I have no idea if there is a God or not...and I certainly do not know (or would I guess) that if there is a God...that the God would be cruel or vengeful.

That is the reason I think the cartoon god of the Bible is not God...

I do not know if a God exists....I also do not know if no gods exist. I simply do not know either way. (I often add that I do not see enough unambiguous evidence in either direction to make a meaningful guess either way.)

Obviously, I also do not know anything about the nature of any God that MIGHT exist....but I have very little reason to guess that it would be a cruel, vengeful, jealous, tyrannical, petty, murderous, barbaric GOD...

...which is the reason I do not think that the god of the Bible is any God that might exist...because the god of the Bible is all of those things.

Sorry for any confusion...I think Frank's real issue is that the character demonstrated by God in Bible doesn't fit his human interpretation of what God should be.

Even though he's clearly agnostic, I don't see that we must prove the existence of God in order to discuss God's character. You can discuss the character of a person in a fictional book without needing to prove that the person exists.

Furthermore, by arguing that the character of God is capricious, jealous, etc., he's already presumed that God exists. You can't have character (either good or bad) without the person.

Having said that I do believe in the God of the Bible, that he exists, that the Bible is inerrant, the Trinity, original sin, salvation by faith alone, man's depravity etc., but don't see Frank or cicerone coming around by arguments of doctrine.

Trying to make a logical argument that "who are we to judge God"?

Hope this helps...it's hard to put the delicate distinction in writing.

Hey Frank - as long as it all makes sense to YOU, is all that's important. Have another brewski.

Now I really am confused!

"...the god is threatening people, killing them, ordering them to kill others...and in general, being a murderous, barbaric scumbag."

Could anyone, other than Frank, please tell me how this is not calling God a scumbag?

Every other time the god of the Bible...the god your Jesus worshipped...is on the scene talking or acting...

...the god is threatening people, killing them, ordering them to kill others...and in general, being a murderous, barbaric scumbag.

That is clearly in the context of the god of the Bible as it is depicted in the Bible. Scumbag is actually quite generous terminology in my view for a character that does and says the things that are depicted in the bible. You have certainly had enough exchanges with Frank to know that he always uses the "as depicted in the Bible" format because he considers it to be a fictional character.

Mesquite,

Fair enough. Let me see if I can try to explain something about my viewpoint on this a bit better.

When the evil acts of flying those planes into the Twin Towers on 9/11 occurred, it was, indeed, horrific, more than horrific. I can't think of a word to describe it, but I am sure everyone felt it.

There is always more than one side to a picture. Yes, what happened killed thousands, devastated families, ruined lives, etc. But, even though something so horrific had such an effect on our nation, look at the good that rose from that horrifying situation. Our country now bands together to support our troops (perhaps not the war, but our troops). There has become a renewed spirit in our country. Perhaps it would not have happened if it weren't for 9/11? I am not saying God did 9/11. I am just saying that from horrific situations good can occur.

Now, exactly why God said to take the children and women who had not slept with any man as slaves? I can only give my opinion. He obviously held the children as innocent and virginity was a sign of purity. Perhaps He was giving those innocents a chance at life? Slaves in the Bible were not treated like slaves in the south. Though they were owned, they were more often than not, treated as family.

Now, I am not saying that is what God was thinking. I can't begin to know His mind. But in any given situation, you have to look at the whole picture, the before, the during, and the after. Before 9/11 we were just going on about our daily routines not really thinking that much about patriotism. 9/11 occurs and we were all devastated. From that devastation, we are growing into a more unified nation. I would much rather 9/11 hadn't occurred and all the lives that were lost were still here. But, if I focus on the negative about that or anything, I become negative and part of the problem instead of the solution. I get back up on that horse every time I am thrown down. I learn from it, I grow from it.

God's teachings are not always easy to understand. Some are impossible to understand because He is God and I can't fathom in my human brain just all that encompasses.

So, as long as you and others continue to focus on the harsh side of God and can't understand the loving side, it is going to be very difficult for you to see what I see. I mean no disrespect here, Mesquite. But, if you do not understand the concept of Christ becoming our intercessory then it is not going to make sense to you.

How often are the harsh words of the OT referenced in these forums compared to the loving beautiful ways of Jesus in the NT? If everyone were just to live by the beatitudes alone, the world would be a much kinder, gentler place to live.

Keep in mind the the men that committed those acts had blind faith in their version of the Abrahamic god. They thought that they were doing "Allah's will, and by doing so they would gain direct entrance to paradise (heaven). Their holy documents say "The gates of Paradise are under the shadows of the swords."

I am not sure if I should read that as a belief that the attacks were God directed. Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson, ignorant buttbreaths as they are tried to say it was God's wrath against gays.

In any event the renewed spirit was short lived once our self righteous leader that believes he is guided by God deflected our efforts away from the ones that attacked us and started a conflict in Iraq that we have no business being in.

He was obviously giving the female virgin little ones a chance at life. I also suspect that the fascination with virgins had more to do with male ego than godly purity. In any event, the story is utterly gross.

When I posted a link to Mark Twain's Little Bessie" someone said it was loaded with strawmen, inferring that the statements made by Little Bessies mother were unrealistic. You are beginning to sound a lot like Little Bessie's mother.

People often band together in times of crisis. That is part of human nature. What does this have to do with cruel examples in the Bible?

If teachings cannot be understood, they should not be called teachings.

I also mean no disrespect, but if you can translate a jealous, vengeful, sadistic god sacrificing his son to himself in order to forgive humans for offending himself into an act of love, then probably nothing I say will make sense to you.

That is a very true statement. Unfortunately far too many Christians cannot resist dipping back into the old testament to support their prejudices, and since they consider the source divine, there is no possibility to reason. That is why I concentrate my energies against the texts. It is the texts that are the source of so many problems.

I think all the people arguing against the bible is approaching it from the wrong side. The real issue is why so many people with so many obvious contradictions, errors and omissions in the bible still believe in their religion?

It's not difficult to find verses in the bible that are contradictory - even for a lay person like me. Why are all these contradictions ignored in the bible that would not othewise be accepted so freely in anything else? It surely would not be accepted in law, medicine, science, or most professions.

All my siblings and their spouses including many of my friends are christians. Many of them are well educated professionals.

If they are as illogical, inconsistent, or contradictory in their professions, they would be deemed unfit to practice their profession.

The big Q is why can't we see what they see in their religion?

think all the people arguing against the bible is approaching it from the wrong side. The real issue is why so many people with so many obvious contradictions, errors and omissions in the bible still believe in their religion?

It's not difficult to find verses in the bible that are contradictory - even for a lay person like me. Why are all these contradictions ignored in the bible that would not othewise be accepted so freely in anything else? It surely would not be accepted in law, medicine, science, or most professions.

All my siblings and their spouses including many of my friends are christians. Many of them are well educated professionals.

If they are as illogical, inconsistent, or contradictory in their professions, they would be deemed unfit to practice their profession.

The big Q is why can't we see what they see in their religion?

I guess my question is still this? Why then, if one considers this to be a fictional character, would one spend so much time and energy trying to prove he is a "scumbag?"

The fictional characters The Penguin and The Riddler on Batman were what you might call "scumbags" but I don't find it necessary to prove it. And wow, what about some of these villians on TV today? Wanting to blow up the whole world and dominate the universe? That's why I have such a hard time with anyone trying to prove something about something they don't even believe in. And I don't care if Frank understands that point about me or not.

So, you and I are a bit off neutral ground again, eh? I hope not.

No one is trying to prove anything. Expose would be a better word as it is self evident to anyone that looks at it objectively. As to why, I can't speak for Frank, but for myself I am concerned about the more radical religious right that is injecting itself into our political system and thereby forcing its worldview on the rest of us. See The Rise of the Religious Right in the Republican Party These are the folks that tend to take a more literal view of the Bible. I intend to shine light on that literal view because I do not believe it can stand sunshine.

Well you better believe that if there was an organized cult following of the Penguin and Riddler trying to project their values onto me and to teach it in our public school system, I would do the same for them.

Of course not. I thought you said that you wanted to discuss different views. Did you ever take a look at the links I provided in this post?

Mesquite Wrote:

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That is a very true statement. Unfortunately far too many Christians cannot resist dipping back into the old testament to support their prejudices, and since they consider the source divine, there is no possibility to reason. That is why I concentrate my energies against the texts. It is the texts that are the source of so many problems.

Well, I think you can tell I am not one of those Christians that try to support any prejudices. It's not the sinner I have problems with, it's the sin itself. I do not condemn someone for something I perceive as wrong. That's not my right. I love the person but I don't have to like what they do, just as they don't have to like what I do. I realize not all Christians are like that. Oh yes, I have seen the ones that attack abortion clinics and doctors. I see how gays and lesbians are treated, but you will never get me to agree with their methods. It is never right to do wrong. Bombing abortion clinics, shooting the doctors, gay bashing, etc., are definitely NOT THE RIGHT THING TO DO! I cringe when someone says they are a Christian and they are involved in this behavior. It makes it so hard for Christ's true message to come through. There are so many places in the Bible that He says He does not condemn the person. He is about grace and salvation, not condemnation.

I see news items about some church groups bickering about allowing gay and lesbians to participate in their congregations ceremonies or clergy. I see the President recommending a constitutional ammendment to prevent same sex marriages. I believe I recall even you saying that you opposed same sex marriages. All of that would seem contrary to the message of Jesus as I understand it, but then we can always check back to the Old Testament for clarification can't we? The arguements used to discriminate against gays and lesbians today seem not much different to me than the ones for slavery or segregation yesterday.