Should we handle victory the way the Christian god decrees?

No hope for what?

Frank, this whole thread began with your claim that the God of the Bible was:



As I saw it, your real question went to the character of the God of the Bible and that is what I responded to. But you dismissed my post by questioning whether God exists. That is a red herring. If God does not exist than he is none of those things discussed thru this thread (either good or bad).



You've totally lost me here. What reason? That God may or may not exist? How do you make the leap from a god that may or may not exist to a judgement call that the God of the Bible is not that god?

As I see it, the existence of God has nothing to do with it. No, instead you are basing your judgement ("that the God of the Bible is not God") on the character of the God described in the Bible.

So let's set aside the red herring on God's existence and deal with the question at hand...God's character in the Bible. That is the issue I attempted to answer in my earlier post and I'm still waiting for your response. In a nutshell, I argue that the Creator can do as he will with the creation. If he decides to destroy a galaxy (or a city-state) he created, so be it. This in no way reflects on his character. The "painting" has no basis to make judgement calls on whether that is a good or evil act.

Cicerone Imposter Wrote:



I am going to assume (though I hate to assume anymore) that you are being serious here.

No hope for what? No hope for anything. We are slowly destroying ourselves and our world. God provides hope for a better way. Man, left up to man, will destroy man.

slkshock7 Wrote:



YES! Woo Hoo! Someone finally put it into the right words! He is God. He made us! It's His perogative! Thanx soooooooooooo much!

I'll take your word for that...for the benefit of this reply. But anytime I hear someone talk about what "God" should or should not be able to do...I MOST ASSUREDLY DO NOT TRANSLATE THAT INTO "THE god OF THE BIBLE."

Let's just keep those two things separate...unless you are prepared to establish with reasonable certainty that there is a GOD...and that the pitiful, cartoon god described in the Bible is that GOD.




What are you talking about???? I answered your post completely. I answered EVERY question you asked. How on earth can you possibly accuse me of dismissing it? What is it with you Christians?




That is absurd! Whether there actually is a God or not has absolutely no impact on what the god described in the Bible is like. Whether there actually is a God or not has absolutely no impact on what Zeus was like.

If you want to discuss God with me...do so. If you want to discuss the god of the Bible with me...do so.

If you want to mix the two up...do so....but I will point it out every time.




Perhaps I worded that poorly. I don't think so...but let me re-word it...and see if you catch my meaning.

I do not know if a God exists....I also do not know if no gods exist. I simply do not know either way. (I often add that I do not see enough unambiguous evidence in either direction to make a meaningful guess either way.)

Obviously, I also do not know anything about the nature of any God that MIGHT exist....but I have very little reason to guess that it would be a cruel, vengeful, jealous, tyrannical, petty, murderous, barbaric GOD...

...which is the reason I do not think that the god of the Bible is any God that might exist...because the god of the Bible is all of those things.

I hope that was clearer...and that you got my point.




I am going to assume that my response above is adequate for this question also.




Not sure of your point here.




I understand where you are coming from on this, Shock...and I acknowledge it as a reasonable argument.

But that does not mean that I, or anyone else, cannot characterize the personality and character of the god. You Christians do it all the time. And in this thread, many Christians take exception to my mentioning that the god possesses the traits I mention...and suggest instead that the god of the Bible is a caring god, a compassionate god, a humanity loving god.

Well...if Christians can characterize the god in that weird way...I certainly can point out passages showing the god to be the things I say it is.

I reiterate...I agree with you that the god can be anything it wants to be. But if it is being a scumbag...I see no reason why we humans cannot note that it is being a scumbag...instead of pretending it is being kind and humanity loving.

What problem do you have with that?

Hi slkshock7;
Ain't this fun? In order to answer Frank, you must agree that the harsh judgements of the OT come from a God who can only be cruel, vindictive and/or just plain nasty. When you point out the fact that they are a deserved consequence of sin, you become an idiot.

If you explain that Jesus lived and died to erase the pain and suffering of both those who knew God and those who never had a chance to know Him, he dumps his entire word salad on your head, complete with an expletive laced dressing of unparalleled grammatical creativity.

Equating the discipline we have been discussing here with the discipline that would be applied by a loving parent is absolutely repulsive to me.

The "Lord's" discipline what we have been discussing on this thread is much more related to the sicko discipline that Dyslexia was describing here.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1518007#1518007

Some of you really need to get a grip.

What a bunch of drivel.


I say the god of the Bible is all the things I mentioned. I have posted passage after passage showing the god exhibiting those traits.

I've challenged the Christians in this thread to produce passages showing the god acting compassionate and humanity loving...where the main focus of the passage is not threats, killing, asking others to kill...or that kind of nonsense.

None has ever produced even one passage that meets this criteria...and I have even told them there is such a passage.

One!

Every other time the god of the Bible...the god your Jesus worshipped...is on the scene talking or acting...

...the god is threatening people, killing them, ordering them to kill others...and in general, being a murderous, barbaric scumbag.

Hey...I agree with you, Shock. If the god wants to do things we humans would consider murderous, petty, barbaric, tyrannical, offensive, psychotic, disturbed, idiotic...why the god has the perfect right to do so.

All I'm doing is calling it to the attention of the people participating here.

They seem to be offended by it.

If you will excuse the expression, Mesquite...AMEN to your comments up above.

Pretty picture...and pretty sentiment.

But when you really look at it...

..it falls apart.

In order for a loving father to be disciplining his adored son the way the god of the Bible "disciplines" the "humans he adores"...

...the father would have to deliver his message by smashing his son's head using a claw hammer.

Repeatedly!!!

The denial of these people is overwhelming.

Neo,

Do you recall anywhere in any of these threads that Frank actually told us there was one passage he might even slightly consider to be in opposition to what he says?

I only recall seeing that no one would meet his challenge because there were no verses.

Mesquite,

You obviously don't understand the relevance of what Husker posted because you obviously don't understand what we have been trying to explain to you all along. Again, CostalRat's explanation was clear, concise, and right on point.

I am sorry that we have not been able to explain it more to your satisfaction. But to be quite frank with you, I don't think anyone could.

Unfortunately I understand all to well what you have been trying to explain to me. What I understand is that some people are able to look at some of the most horrific accounts in the Bible and relate it to love or nothing more than a necessary discipline. That sort of mental gymnastics is far too often cause of serious harm as related by Dyslexia in the post I referenced.

Please note that I am not inferring that you or others in this discussion would commit such acts, but your ability to see the words through some rose colored glass rather than as they were spoken is troubling.



I pointed out the specific weakness in CoastalRats's post as I saw it. Reaffirming your agreement with CR adds nothing. You do not strike me as a person that has problems expressing yourself. Why is this issue so difficult?

Yeah, Neo....do you remember that I've mentioned at least 4 times (perhaps more) that there actually is a passage in the Bible (one time, I even mentioned that it is is Genesis) where the god of the Bible was on the scene talking or acting...and the thrust was NOT punishing anyone, threatening anyone, killing anyone, or ordering others to kill someone?

If you don't...too bad, because I have.

In any case...why hasn't some Christian...ANY CHRISTIAN...produce one passage somewhere from the Bible with the god on the scene talking or acting...where the the thrust of the segment does not have the god punishing anyone, threatening anyone, killing anyone, or ordering others to kill someone?

I'll tell ya why.

Because there is only that one tiny passage...(hard to find)...and all the rest show the god displaying the traits I say it has....

...that's why!

And it should be such an easy job for you good folks. After all...you claim the god is kind, gentle, compassionate...and above all, humanity loving. The Bible should be loaded with such passages.

ANYWAY....just in case any of you Christians missed it:

There is one passage in the Bible that has the god of the Bible on the scene talking and acting...where the thrust of the activity does not show the god punishing anyone, threatening anyone, killing anyone, or ordering anyone else to kill someone. It is in Genesis.

See if you can find it.

Frank, "God so loved the world, that...." Doesn't say he loved humans, but one would think it was all inclusive, don't you?

If the Bible is the "Word of God", why can't this book keep its own story straight?

Deism.org's Top 10 Contradictions in the Bible:

Is the Bible the Word of God?
The two different Genesis accounts of creation
Are we judged by our faith or works?
Is anyone righteous?
Is a child's life precious to the Biblegod?
Is Jesus God?
Is Jesus the only way to Heaven?
Does the Biblegod want everyone to be saved? or Does the Biblegod love everyone?
Is Jesus a loving, tolerant person?
How many gods are there?
Is the Bible the Word of God?

Flip: Yes, every word in it!

2nd Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Flop: The views expressed herein are not necessarily those of God.

1st Cor 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord:
Oh, the irony. The Bible itself can't even keep its story straight on whether or not it is the Word of God.

The two different Genesis accounts of creation

In what order did the Biblegod create everything?

Flip: In the first chapter, the Biblegod creates the plants, then animals, then humans, man and woman at the same time.

Gen 1:11-13 ("the third day of creation") And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the third day.
Gen 1:24-26 ("the sixth day of creation") And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Gen 1:27 ("the sixth day of creation") So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Flop: In the second chapter, the Biblegod creates man, then plants, then animals, then woman.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof

Gen 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

The two different paths to salvation

Is salvation by faith or works?

This is a pretty important issue here. Our souls are at stake. Can I get into Heaven by being a good person or do I get into Heaven by faith alone? There are some people who have faith who are not good people and there are some people who do not have faith (or alternatively have faith in the "wrong" religion) who are good people.

For example, is Mahatma Gandhi in Heaven or Hell? He was quite arguably a good person who contributed much to our world but he wasn't a Christian.

We should expect that with the stakes so high, the Bible ought to make a point of being clear on this issue.

Flip: Salvation is only for Christians. God judges us by our faith.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Acts 16:30-31 Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Rom 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God salvation to every one that believeth .... As it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Gal 2:16 A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ.

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

Flop: Salvation is for good people. God judges us by our works.

Psalms 62:12 For you render to each one according to his works.
Jer 17:10 I the Lord ... give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Ezek 18:27 When the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness ... and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul.

Matt 16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

Matt 25:45-46 Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

2nd Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

1st Pet 1:17 The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I (Jesus) come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Rev 20:12-13 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Is anyone righteous?

Flip: Some are righteous in God's eyes

Gen 6:8-9 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. Noah was a just man and perfect.
1st Kings 15:14 Asa's heart was perfect with the LORD all his days.

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Amos 8:7 The LORD hath sworn by the excellency of Jacob, Surely I will never forget any of their works.

Luke 1:5-6 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Luke 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

2nd Peter 2:7-8 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;

Flop: No one is righteous in God's eyes

1st Kings 8:46 There is no man which sinneth not.
Ec 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

Is a child's life precious in the eyes of the Biblegod?

Flip: A child's life is precious to the Biblegod

Matt 18:14 It is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
Flop: A child's life is not especially valued by the Biblegod

Ex 12:12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.
Lev 20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

Deut 20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth

Deut 21:18-21 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

1st Sam 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

2nd Sam 12:14-15 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.

2nd Kings 2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

Jer 19:9 And I (the Biblegod) will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them.

Hos 9:16 Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.

Hos 13:16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

Is Jesus God?

A major point of controversy between the different denominations of Christianity is the humanity, or lack thereof, of Jesus. How much was he human? How much was he God? Naturally, everyone can find verses that agree with their position.

Flip: Jesus is God

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

John 20:28-29 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Phil 2:5-6 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Flop: Jesus is not God

Matt 26:39 And he (Jesus) went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God

Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

John 14:28 (Jesus said) My Father is greater than I

Col 3:1 Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

1st Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

Is Jesus the only way to Heaven?

Flip: Only Jesus saves.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Flop: Except for a few people in the OT who went to Heaven without Jesus' help.

2nd Kings, 2:11 And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Heb 11:5 Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him (into Heaven) for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Does the Biblegod want everyone to be saved?

Some say Jesus came to save everyone if we would all but harken to the Word. Others say that the Biblegod has hardened the hearts of some skeptics to use them as objects of wrath. They can both find Biblical passages to justify their positions.

Flip: The Biblegod wants everyone to go to Heaven. (Bold emphasis mine)

1st Tim 2:3-4 "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
2nd Pet. 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Flop: The Biblegod has hardened the hearts of some that they might be objects of his wrath.

Prov. 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart,

Rom. 9:18 Therefore hath he (the Biblegod) mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

2 Thes. 2:11-12 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Does the Biblegod love everyone?

Flip: The Biblegod loves everyone. He is love.

Job 36:5 Behold, God is mighty, and despiseth not any: he is mighty in strength and wisdom.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

1 John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

Flop: The Biblegod hates some people.

Lev 20:23 And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.
Psalm 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Psalm 11:5-6 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

Mal 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Is Jesus a loving, tolerant person?

Flip: Jesus is a very loving, tolerant and merciful person

Matt 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you
Matt 22:39 Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Above verse repeated in Mark 12:31 and paraphrased in Luke 10:27.

Matt 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Luke 3:14 Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely

Luke 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you

Luke 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

Luke 6:35-37 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven

John 8:7 He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Flop: Jesus was a very hateful person

Matt 10:14-15 (Jesus explains to those who will carry his Gospel) And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Repeated in Mark 6:11 and Luke 10:12

Matt 10:34-37 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Matt 11:21-24 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Matt 13:41-42 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matt 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

Repeated in Mark 7:10

Matt 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Repeated in Luke 17:26

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Luke 3:17 (John the Baptist describes Jesus and how he shall treat the saved and damned) Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

How many gods are there?

Flip: "There is only the Biblegod."

Deut 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.

Deut 4:39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isaiah 45:5-6 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Flop: "There are many gods out there but we like the Biblegod best."

Ex 12:12 ...and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.
Ex 15:11 Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods?

Ex 18:11 Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods: for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly he was above them.

Ex 22:28 Thou shalt not revile the gods

Ex 23:32 Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods.

Num 33:4 ...upon their gods also the LORD executed judgments.

Judges 11:24 Wilt not thou possess that which Chemosh thy god giveth thee to possess?

1st Sam 6:5 ...ye shall give glory unto the God of Israel: peradventure he will lighten his hand from off you, and from off your gods, and from off your land.

1st Sam 28:13 I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

Psalms 82:1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods;

Psalms 86:8 Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works.

Psalms 96:4 For the LORD is great, and greatly to be praised: he is to be feared above all gods.

Psalms 97:7 Confounded be all they that serve graven images, that boast themselves of idols: worship him, all ye gods.

Psalms 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Jer 10:11 Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.

Zeph 2:11 The LORD... will famish all the gods of the earth...

Mesquite,

Fair enough. Let me see if I can try to explain something about my viewpoint on this a bit better.

When the evil acts of flying those planes into the Twin Towers on 9/11 occurred, it was, indeed, horrific, more than horrific. I can't think of a word to describe it, but I am sure everyone felt it.

There is always more than one side to a picture. Yes, what happened killed thousands, devastated families, ruined lives, etc. But, even though something so horrific had such an effect on our nation, look at the good that rose from that horrifying situation. Our country now bands together to support our troops (perhaps not the war, but our troops). There has become a renewed spirit in our country. Perhaps it would not have happened if it weren't for 9/11? I am not saying God did 9/11. I am just saying that from horrific situations good can occur.

Now, exactly why God said to take the children and women who had not slept with any man as slaves? I can only give my opinion. He obviously held the children as innocent and virginity was a sign of purity. Perhaps He was giving those innocents a chance at life? Slaves in the Bible were not treated like slaves in the south. Though they were owned, they were more often than not, treated as family.

Now, I am not saying that is what God was thinking. I can't begin to know His mind. But in any given situation, you have to look at the whole picture, the before, the during, and the after. Before 9/11 we were just going on about our daily routines not really thinking that much about patriotism. 9/11 occurs and we were all devastated. From that devastation, we are growing into a more unified nation. I would much rather 9/11 hadn't occurred and all the lives that were lost were still here. But, if I focus on the negative about that or anything, I become negative and part of the problem instead of the solution. I get back up on that horse every time I am thrown down. I learn from it, I grow from it.

God's teachings are not always easy to understand. Some are impossible to understand because He is God and I can't fathom in my human brain just all that encompasses.

So, as long as you and others continue to focus on the harsh side of God and can't understand the loving side, it is going to be very difficult for you to see what I see. I mean no disrespect here, Mesquite. But, if you do not understand the concept of Christ becoming our intercessory then it is not going to make sense to you.

How often are the harsh words of the OT referenced in these forums compared to the loving beautiful ways of Jesus in the NT? If everyone were just to live by the beatitudes alone, the world would be a much kinder, gentler place to live.

I hope this helped answer you. I was not intentionally ducking you.

Momma Angel

Cicerone,

Uh, I am a little perplexed here. Are you asking a question? Are you answering a question? That's an awful lot of stuff you posted there. How about we break it down to just one question at a time?

I am very confused by you sometimes. I am not sure where you stand on this issue, or if you have a stance, or if you are looking for one.

But, no matter where you are, if you break this down in smaller pieces, I would be happy to try to clear up what I can with you.

Momma Angel

Momma, I said I will not attack you for your personal beliefs in any religion. What I have posted is not asking a question. It seems to explain much of the bible in terms that can be understood by anybody that can read the English language. Whether you wish to challenge the post is entirely up to you.

It explains why I have difficulty with the bible god and it's beliefs. It's about me: I like simplicity in my life; ideas that contradict any issue continues to be a curiosity for its own sake.

It's not necessary for you to respond one way or the other.

Cicerone Imposter Wrote:



I do appreciate your honesty, Cicerone. I greatly appreciate that you aren't attacking me. I am not going to tell you that I have never had questions myself, because I have. But, of what importance is it really that one part of the Bible may say man was created first, then an animal, and then a woman, etc.? And I am just pointing out one of your points there.

And you have to be very careful when pointing out a verse in the Bible. More often than not, the verses before or after it have a great deal to do with it's meaning. In just picking out one single verse, one can interpret it to say pretty much what they want. I know that to be true. When I was being taught how to read the Bible I was taught not to just read one verse but to read the whole story concerning the verse.

Even though there may be seeming inconsistencies, typos, etc., the most important thing of the Word of God has never changed. God created us. God gave us free will. God disciplines us. God forgives us. God loves us.

I do not believe that anyone has ever found any religion to be 100% perfect. There is but one perfect anything. That is God. You put man in the mix and well, you see what has happened with today's world.

Just because there may be seeming flaws to you or anyone else, does that mean that the basics should be thrown out? Does that mean that what Christ taught is not good? I think not. I think the problem is that man too often throws his spin on things to make it accommodate him. Why do we pick out the things that seem to be wrong instead of the things that are right?

Is there any one person in this world that you like every single thing about? Aren't we all made up of characteristics that are desirable and some that are not? Of course we are, if we weren't, then we'd all be the same and we'd all be zombies and bored to tears.

I understand your position, please do not think that I don't. Don't you think I had questions too before I decided to accept Christ as My Savior? Do you think every question was answered to what I wanted it to be? No, but I do not understand God's ways and I can't understand a lot of people, much less God.

So, if you want to look at the inconsistencies in anything you find, then you will never fully understand it. You must look at the entire picture.

Momma Angel

Good...If I understand you, you are suggesting we keep the character of God separate from any argument about his existence. I agree with you.




As I said earlier, we seem to be in agreement.



My point is that we should argue the character of God (whether God is good or evil] but lets not complicate the argument needlessly by bringing in the existence of God. As I see it, we seem to be in violent agreement.



My only problem with that is calling God a scumbag doesn't make him one. We have no way of knowing God's motives, nor whether they are good or evil. Therefore making valid judgements that God is good or God is a scumbag is impossible and not worth our energy.

slkshock7 Wrote:



I know you were posting this to Frank, but I have to ask a question here. How can you argue the character of God without bringing in the existence of God? I, personally, wouldn't argue his character at all, but, I am a bit puzzled here.

So, are you just agreeing there either is or is not a God and if there is a God what is His character? I am just asking for clarification in case I am reading this incorrectly.

Thanx,

Momma Angel

We still have some problems in the areas you covered, Shock...but I do want to get to one area that I think has to be dealt with first.




I could simply agree with that...but I prefer to respond by saying...

...but I didn't call God a scumbag!




We do not even know if there is a God...so obviously we cannot know anything about God's motives.

This is pretty self-evident.




True.

But as I have pointed out three times already...I have not done that.



So what is your point?