Should we handle victory the way the Christian god decrees?

Momma Angel wrote:

And, as I have stated before, I believe the Bible is God-inspired and God-breathed and there is no greater author to me. I can tell you why not the Book of Mormon. I read some of that book. Didn't agree with it. I guess I would have to say Mesquite that I did not choose my faith, it chose me. Christianity is what I felt right about in my heart. None of the others I knew of did. It is, yes, a great leap of faith. But, Christianity is based on faith, so, for me, it's not really a leap, it's a step by step lifelong learning process.

I am just guessing here, but I assume you grew up with Christianity or at least it was your first major religious exposure. Do you think that your views would still be the same if perhaps you were raised Jewish, or Muslim, or Mormon, or heaven forbid agnostic?

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Mesquite Wrote:

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I am just guessing here, but I assume you grew up with Christianity or at least it was your first major religious exposure. Do you think that your views would still be the same if perhaps you were raised Jewish, or Muslim, or Mormon, or heaven forbid agnostic?

Well, you would be guessing and assuming incorrectly. Religion did not enter into my life until my early teens. And I was raised around a pretty diverse group, Mormons, Jews, and even atheists. I just knew which one was right for me.

And Mesquite, every time I think I may be on some neutral ground with you, you make a comment to throw me off track. I may not know God as well as I should but I am getting closer to it every day.

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Momma Angel wrote:

And Mesquite, every time I think I may be on some neutral ground with you, you make a comment to throw me off track. I may not know God as well as I should but I am getting closer to it every day.

Yes, these discussion forums is what I was referring to. No sinister intent.

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Momma Angel wrote:

I may not know God as well as I should but I am getting closer to it every day.

And perhaps you are simply slipping further and further into delusion.

There appears to be no way to know....but for certain, allowing one's fears of the unknown prevent one from even considering the alternatives is a sure way to insure that there is no chance of ever knowing.

Several times Mesquite and I have been asked to consider the possibility of a God existing. Both of us indicated that we have not in any way excluded the possibility.

I wonder if the theists among us can work up the courage to actually acknowledge the possibility that there are no gods?

I doubt it!

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:

I may not know God as well as I should but I am getting closer to it every day.

And perhaps you are simply slipping further and further into delusion.

There appears to be no way to know....but for certain, allowing one's fears of the unknown prevent one from even considering the alternatives is a sure way to insure that there is no chance of ever knowing.

Several times Mesquite and I have been asked to consider the possibility of a God existing. Both of us indicated that we have not in any way excluded the possibility.

I wonder if the theists among us can work up the courage to actually acknowledge the possibility that there are no gods?

I doubt it!

Yeah, you would. But there's no percentage in wasting time trying to convince you we can consider that, and still choose to worship God.

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Snood- This may be a bit off the subject, but there is somwthing about which I am very curious.

FrankApisa wrote:

I wonder if the theists among us can work up the courage to actually acknowledge the possibility that there are no gods?

I doubt it!

Snood wrote:

Yeah, you would. But there's no percentage in wasting time trying to convince you we can consider that, and still choose to worship God.

I am stuck on the concept of "worship". Were a God ever to be revealed to me, (which I seriously doubt) I could never imagine myself groveling in subservient adoration to this aforementioned deity.

You have said in your writing that you can consider the possibility of there being no God, yet you choose to worship him. Why is this happening? Are you covering your bets? (I am more interested in the "worship" part of your statement than whether you consider the possibility of no God.)

Why do believers "worship" their God? Is the concept of a God such that people feel the need to placate him? Does worship help a person to gain "points" in heaven?

Hmmmm...................Don't answer this here. I think that I have found a topic for an interesting new thread!

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=57646

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OK, I won't answer, except to say that you make a jump in assuming that "worship" has to mean "groveling" or "subservience" to believers, even though Merriam Webster might paint that picture. Maybe if I'd said "choose to Love God" that small bit of confusion would be cleared up, but I'm sure there'd be others.

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Re: Should we handle victory the way the Christian god decre
Frank,

Elsewhere in A2K you argue for a woman's right to choose...saying, in essence, that she should have full autonomy over her body, including any embryo or fetus that might be conceived.

Why do you support a woman's right to do what she will with a creation of hers but deny that right to God? Use an analogy of a painter. Wouldn't you agree that the painter has a right to destroy his own paintings (or favor certain paintings above others). Furthermore doesn't he have a right to destroy them in any way he would like? Would you argue that a painting should be able to dictate the terms of its destruction...whether it is torn up, burned or even destroyed at all? By the same token, doesn't God have a right to do as he will with his creation?

This does not make God cruel, or vengeful...anymore than a woman is cruel by terminating her pregnancy.

I expect you to respond with the argument that God did not create us, and I guess that that is your perogative...however at that point, you are asking me, not to defend the God of the Bible (which clearly indicates God created us), but some god of your own imagining using select passages to the Bible to argue your point. To me, that is a god that does not exist, and I see no benefit to arguing the virtues or vices of that god with you.

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Snood wrote:

Maybe if I'd said "choose to Love God" that small bit of confusion would be cleared up.

But what exactly does "choose to love God" actually mean to you? What does this love entail?

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1 John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

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Intrepid- What I would really like to know is what does this love mean to YOU. Quoting from the scriptures says nothing about your "take" on the subject.

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snood wrote:

Yeah, you would. But there's no percentage in wasting time trying to convince you we can consider that, and still choose to worship God.

Are you saying you acknowledge the possibility that there is no god?

And since I addressed this to "Christians"...and you responded with "we"...are you also acknowledging that you are a Christian?

Are there any (other) Christians out there who will acknowledge that there is teh possibility there are no gods?

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Re: Should we handle victory the way the Christian god decre

slkshock7 wrote:

Frank,

Elsewhere in A2K you argue for a woman's right to choose...saying, in essence, that she should have full autonomy over her body, including any embryo or fetus that might be conceived.

Yes I did.

Quote:

Why do you support a woman's right to do what she will with a creation of hers but deny that right to God?

For the same reason I would deny that right to the aliens who live on the third planet from the star fifth closest to our sun. (I do not know if there are such aliens...and I do not know if there is a God.)

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Use an analogy of a painter. Wouldn't you agree that the painter has a right to destroy his own paintings (or favor certain paintings above others).

Absolutely.

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Furthermore doesn't he have a right to destroy them in any way he would like?

Yep.

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Would you argue that a painting should be able to dictate the terms of its destruction...whether it is torn up, burned or even destroyed at all?

No.

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By the same token, doesn't God have a right to do as he will with his creation?

What god? How can you ask this question without establishing there is a God...that the God is a Personal God...and that the God cares one way or another whether a fetus is destroyed or not.

If there is a God...the God allows galaxies to be destroyed.

And by the way...how do you know that your god is not more interested in each human having the right to control his/her own body...than in seeing any more humans born on this planet?

Why are you assuming that if there is a God...the God is on your side in this argument?

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This does not make God cruel, or vengeful...anymore than a woman is cruel by terminating her pregnancy.

I have no idea if there is a God or not...and I certainly do not know (or would I guess) that if there is a God...that the God would be cruel or vengeful.

That is the reason I think the cartoon god of the Bible is not God...because the cartoon god of the Bible is cruel, vengeful, psychotic, retributive, brutal, petty, tyrannical, etc., etc., etc.

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I expect you to respond with the argument that God did not create us, and I guess that that is your perogative...

Well that would be a stupid guess...because I do not know how all this got to be. I have no idea if the universe always existed...and if we simply came into being because that is simply the way existence operates...or if there was a God who always existed and "created" the universe and us.

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...however at that point, you are asking me, not to defend the God of the Bible (which clearly indicates God created us), but some god of your own imagining using select passages to the Bible to argue your point.

I am doing no such thing.

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To me, that is a god that does not exist, and I see no benefit to arguing the virtues or vices of that god with you.

Well...since the notion is a strawman of your own creation...just ignore it.

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Intrepid wrote:

1 John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

More grovelling. And being used to justify grovelling.

What circular reasoning.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Amigo Wrote:

Quote:
In the scripture from your bible (God) instructs that we force submission or murder man, moman and child without mercy. The defence was " Times were primitive". When the christian sword comes down on the child and he/she asks why. Do we say "Sorry kiddo, Times is primative."

The best answer I can give you here is to read what CoastalRat posted. I find that explanation very complete and credible.

I am sorry if it seemed I was ignoring you. I promise I wasn't. I had a migraine yesterday and was a bit fuzzy.

MA, I made a few comment regarding CR's post. Since he has yet to comment on it and you say that you find his explanation very credible, would you mind responding to my comments here.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1517991#1517991

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Phoenix,

Can I jump in there and try to answer that question about what it means to love God?

First, let me say, yes, I do worship God. I do not grovel, as some would call it. I praise Him, I glorify Him, I love Him. I love Him as a father, a teacher, and a friend. The love I have for Him and the love He has for me teaches me how to treat others, how to do what is right, how to be a better person. Phoenix, I can only tell you that the happiness I have experienced in my life since I became a Christian far outweighs any trial or tribulation I may have experienced. God is my strength. I am never alone. He has answered prayers in my life from the smallest of things to the greatest. Experiencing God's love is the most wonderful thing I could ever imagine.

I hope that helped and I hope I wasn't butting in.

Momma Angel

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http://img.heartlight.org/cards/g/proverbs3_11-12.jpg

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Phoenix wrote, "--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Snood- This may be a bit off the subject, but there is somwthing about which I am very curious.

FrankApisa wrote:
I wonder if the theists among us can work up the courage to actually acknowledge the possibility that there are no gods?

I doubt it!

Snood wrote:
Yeah, you would. But there's no percentage in wasting time trying to convince you we can consider that, and still choose to worship God.

I am stuck on the concept of "worship". Were a God ever to be revealed to me, (which I seriously doubt) I could never imagine myself groveling in subservient adoration to this aforementioned deity.

You have said in your writing that you can consider the possibility of there being no God, yet you choose to worship him. Why is this happening? Are you covering your bets? (I am more interested in the "worship" part of your statement than whether you consider the possibility of no God.)

Why do believers "worship" their God? Is the concept of a God such that people feel the need to placate him? Does worship help a person to gain "points" in heaven?

Hmmmm...................Don't answer this here. I think that I have found a topic for an interesting new thread!

Phoenix, I believe you have hit on the mystery of religion; a need to "worship" what humans feel are superior to humans.

I think humans have a difficult time trying to reconcile the fact that we are at the top of the animal chain on this small planet.

With all of our superior abilities to change our environment, we still can't accept the fact that there must be something more superior over the planets and galaxies - a creator.

I have always assumed religious belief was an accident of birth, but I think your thesis is more fundamental to why people must have something to believe in beyond us inferior humans.

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Mesquite Wrote:

Quote:

MA, I made a few comment regarding CR's post. Since he has yet to comment on it and you say that you find his explanation very credible, would you mind responding to my comments here.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1517991#1517991

Mesquite, I don't feel there is anything I can add to what CoastalRat posted.

Cicerone,

You feel man is at the top of the food chain? Well, I think we are in for some trouble here since it appears we have started feeding on each other. If that were the case, there would be no hope, would there?

Husker,

How beautiful that is! Thanx for sharing that.

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Momma:

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You feel man is at the top of the food chain? Well, I think we are in for some trouble here since it appears we have started feeding on each other. If that were the case, there would be no hope, would there?

Exactly.

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Should we handle victory the way the Christian god decrees?

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