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Should we handle victory the way the Christian god decrees?

 
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2005 07:01 am
Intrepid wrote:
It could be said that billions of people can't be wrong, but I would not say that.


At one time billions of people thought that the sun revolved around the earth. At another time, billions of folks maintained that the earth was flat.
Reality is not based on a consensus. What is, is.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2005 07:13 am
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
It could be said that billions of people can't be wrong, but I would not say that.


At one time billions of people thought that the sun revolved around the earth. At another time, billions of folks maintained that the earth was flat.
Reality is not based on a consensus. What is, is.


I will have to use your words here "Pretty words, but logically meaningless".

My reference to billions is factual based on the current world population of approx. 6 billion people. Your reference to billions in the past does not equate since 2000 years ago the population was somewhere around 300 million and even in 1950 there was only 2½ billion. Forty years later we had 5 billion and 6 billion today. Therefore, it was impossible for billions to think that the wun revolved around the earth or that the earth was flat. Unless, of course, people today believe that. You are right, reality is not based on consensus, but faith is.
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2005 08:32 am
Amigo Wrote:

Quote:
In the scripture from your bible (God) instructs that we force submission or murder man, moman and child without mercy. The defence was " Times were primitive". When the christian sword comes down on the child and he/she asks why. Do we say "Sorry kiddo, Times is primative."


The best answer I can give you here is to read what CoastalRat posted. I find that explanation very complete and credible.

I am sorry if it seemed I was ignoring you. I promise I wasn't. I had a migraine yesterday and was a bit fuzzy.
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2005 08:36 am
By the way, good morning everyone!

Snood Wrote:

Quote:
Something that doesn't seem to follow for me is that non-believers insist that the idea of God would have to fit our ideas of what is logical. Does mankind itself behave logically, bya and large? Why would you assume God would "make sense" to you?


I keep asking why non-believers think God should prove Himself and why should God have to accommodate us? I have yet to understand this. I would not want a God that bends to my will or has to be proven. That, to me, is a complete oxy-moron.

God always has been, always will be. Never born, never dying. He's GOD. What would some of you have Him to be?
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2005 08:49 am
Momma Angel wrote:
I keep asking why non-believers think God should prove Himself


I am not saying that God should prove himself. But, until there is some smidgen of proof, there is no reason for anyone to even entertain the thought that there even is a God.
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CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2005 08:52 am
Just out of curiousity, what would you consider an adequate "smidgen" of proof?
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2005 09:03 am
Good question CoastalRat.

I thought that proof had been pointed out (i.e., trees, sight, sound, etc.).

So, I guess the smidgen of proof has to be more specific?
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2005 09:22 am
CoastalRat wrote:
Just out of curiousity, what would you consider an adequate "smidgen" of proof?


I honestly don't know. So far I have not seen anything that would cause me to entertain remotely the concept of a God. But I believe in keeping an open mind.

The next question is, assuming that I receive proof that there is a God, would I live my life any differently? Absolutely not. Would I become a part of the clamoring claque of true believers? No way. I am too much of an individualist.
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2005 09:25 am
MommaAngel wrote:
I thought that proof had been pointed out (i.e., trees, sight, sound, etc.).



I don't agree that those things prove anything but trees exist, and most members of the animal kingdom see and hear.
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2005 09:26 am
Phoenix,

I guess I just don't understand. If you wouldn't change a thing if God could be proven to you, then why does it seem you want proof at all?

If nothing would change, why muddy the waters, so to speak?

If you only think those things exist, how did they get here? And if you say evolution, where did the beginning of evolution come from? There has to be a starting point, right?
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2005 09:30 am
MommaAngel wrote:
I guess I just don't understand. If you wouldn't change a thing if God could be proven to you, then why does it seem you want proof at all?


I don't want proof. Actually, if I had my "druthers" I would never think about a God at all. To me it is irrelevant. The problem is that I am constantly faced with people who attempt to regulate MY life based on their interpretations of what this supposed God wants.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2005 09:32 am
Intrepid wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Intrepid wrote:

Look around at all that God has created. If you did a mathematical equation on the odds of everything being what it is today, it would be beyond human comprehension. The odds of a tornado blow through a junkyard and blow pieces of junk into a complete 747 jumbo jet are probably less.


This "look around" argument is nonsense, Intrepid.

What's here...is what's here.

It can just as easily be an accident as anything else.

The mathematical equation of duplicating it exactly ...may be "beyond human comprehension" (and I suspect it is)...but to take "what's here" as a finished product and say the odds against it happening accidentally is simply misusing logic and math.

You do understand that, don't you? I don't have to explain it in simpler terms, do I?


Nonsense


Nonsense on your part.

The argument you are making is mathematically unsound.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2005 09:34 am
Intrepid wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
I enjoyed the passion in your rationalization of why your god gave such savage and barbaric advice.


I disagree with the rationalization...but it is your rationalization...and I accept that.

In any case, it reduces to agreement with me that the god is savage and barbaric...even if you add your caveat of "it was necessary."


Frank, you would disagree with my rationalization no matter what was written. Even if proved absolutely wrong, you would take a stand and fight to the death against your detractor.

However, I must have given you pause for thought since you didn't call me an idiot or use your usual foul language. I personally do not care whether you agree with me or not.
I have faith....you do not. You find satisfaction in attacking others...I do not. You are a bully...I am not. You enjoy belittling others...I do not. Being a Christian ain't so bad.


Not if you can stand living a lie.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2005 09:49 am
Intrepid wrote:
[Frank, I previously replied to your remarks with the one word of nonsense because that is what I think it is. Realizing that this did not give a full reply, I am adding to that comment.

You throw off the "look around" comment easily. Did you give thought to that, or was that just a hysterical comment without form?


I have dealt with this silly argument on many occasions. My comment was well thought out.


Quote:
If you look around, you will see that very form of life on earth is highly specialized and perfectly adapted to its environment and to its place in life and for the purpose for which it was created.

The cactus in the desert, the eagle in the air, the tiger in the jungle, the whale in the sea, all function perfectly where they are and where God provided that they be. Our orderly, well-planned world, having WATER (practically unknown in the rest of the universe)...


Gotta stop this rant for a second here.

Just how the hell do you know how plentiful water is in the rest of the universe???????????????


Quote:
... a well-balanced atmosphere, almost 100 necessary and useful elements, and climactic conditions permitting life on earth, gives us abundant evidence that our world is unique in the universe


Gotta stop this rant again.

How the hell do you know that our world is unique in the universe????

In fact...how the hell do you know that our universe is unique?

Good grief...are you on drugs today?



Quote:
... and was designed by an all-wise and all-powerful architect for human and animal habitation.


Or...simply has always existed and happened to end up where we are right now.

I certainly don't know which it is....and I suspect you don't either.

So why are you pretending that your guess....silly as it is....is the only possible answer to all this?


Quote:
The innumerable and highly complex specialized organs, such as the eye and the ear, the sonar system of bats, the beak of the woodpecker, the tongue of a toad, the trunk of an elephant, the spinerettes of the spider, and mother's breast, are of such a nature that to be useful and functional they had to come into being at once, and could not have developed gradually through chance mutations, random changes," or natural selection. God created everything in it's place.


How the hell can you possibly know what can and cannot develop through chance mutations?????


Quote:
The medical properties of plants, the healing power of minerals and the food sources from the land and sea are all provided by God.


Or just happen to be here. I don't know which...and I suspect you don't either. Why are you asserting it as fact???


Quote:
Yes, Frank....look around. Figure out exactly what the odds of this happening by chance would be. Include everything that interacts with each other and the perfect way that they work.


Open up a deck of cards...and shuffle it thoroughly.

Figure out the odds that the exact order you find the cards in...would happen by chance.

Then...open your mind and realize that it happened by chance.

You are working a logical and mathematical fallacy.

If the universe always existed...and always had movement...it had to end up somewhere. It is possible "here" is where it ended up...all by chance.

To calculate the odds would make as much sense as calculating the odds of the random deck I just mentioned.

Try to use your brain.


Quote:

Yes, Frank as surely as these things are before us....there is a God,


Only in the eyes of a poor deluded soul who also can see the pathetic barbaric god of the Bible as a humanity loving god.


What a terrible, terrible waste of a mind!
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2005 09:52 am
Phoenix32890 wrote:
MommaAngel wrote:
I guess I just don't understand. If you wouldn't change a thing if God could be proven to you, then why does it seem you want proof at all?


I don't want proof. Actually, if I had my "druthers" I would never think about a God at all. To me it is irrelevant. The problem is that I am constantly faced with people who attempt to regulate MY life based on their interpretations of what this supposed God wants.


Sorry, but this then begs the question on why you frequent these threads.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2005 09:55 am
snood wrote:
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Snood- Once you have subscribed to faith, logic and reason go out the window.IMO, faith and reason are incompatible with each other.


Everyone's entitled to their opinion. In my opinion, people who have ruled out God aren't reasonable.


Most of us haven't ruled out GOD.

Most of us are saying we don't know if there is a God...or if there are no gods.

People who rule out there being no gods...aren't reasonable.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2005 09:57 am
Intrepid wrote:
You are right, reality is not based on consensus, but faith is.


Faith is no more based on consensus than it is based on logic or reason.

"Faith", in a religious context, is the blind, bull-headed insistence that a guess about reality is correct.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2005 09:58 am
Phoenix,

I am with Intrepid on that. Seems like you would just be wasting your time.

Frank,

Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

You say that maybe it always just was here. Then why is it such a hard leap of faith to believe that maybe God was always just here and created everything?

If you can believe something was never created but was just here, it seems to me that believing that God has always been here isn't much of a stretch.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2005 09:58 am
Frank,
I won't use up bandwith by quoting your entire post. Most of it, you have said before anyhow. You asked how I know about water in the universe, the uniqueness of our universe etc. etc. I know this because the scientists tell us it is so. Do you disagree with them as well, Frank? Are you comparing all of creation with a deck of 52 cards? Is that the extent of your arguement? Tell me how the universe could have always been here if God did not create it? Tell me how matter goes from nothing to something. Tell me how a rock on the ground suddenly flies through space. What makes you an expert on logic, Frank?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2005 10:00 am
Momma Angel wrote:
By the way, good morning everyone!

Snood Wrote:

Quote:
Something that doesn't seem to follow for me is that non-believers insist that the idea of God would have to fit our ideas of what is logical. Does mankind itself behave logically, bya and large? Why would you assume God would "make sense" to you?


I keep asking why non-believers think God should prove Himself and why should God have to accommodate us? I have yet to understand this. I would not want a God that bends to my will or has to be proven. That, to me, is a complete oxy-moron.


That is not what an oxymoron is. And anyone who thinks it is...or who writes it as oxy-moron...probably is one.

Oh....without the "oxy", of course.

Quote:
God always has been, always will be. Never born, never dying. He's GOD.


Interesting wild guess. And why is it a "he" in your book?


Quote:
What would some of you have Him to be.


An "It" for beginners.
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