Should we handle victory the way the Christian god decrees?

Foxfyre wrote:

Do you believe there are other living things in the universe? Do you believe there are other yet unseen planets revolving around distant stars? Why do you believe that? There is yet no way to prove it.

I don't believe IN the existence of other living things, but I believe in the POSSIBILITY that such things exist. "There is yet no way to prove it" is correct. "Yet" being the opperative word. This is something that given time and scientific advancement, could be proven.

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I used the illustrations that I did because they are also unprovable to one who has not seen, heard, or experienced the proof. Going back to the Rogers and Hammerstein musical: "The King and I". The crown prince had never seen snow and was quite dubious when he was told of it. Unless you trust the source of the information, belief is difficult to come by.

True, but he merely had to take a boatride to confirm that it does in fact happen.

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If you were told of numerous great singers but found each one disapponting, how confident would you be that Caruso was a great singer if you had not yet heard him? But if you had good experiences with the others, would you not be looking forward to Caruso with optimistic anticipation? Such is the faith that children have in the words of a good parent. Such is the way it is for those who have experienced the promises of God.

Indeed. Yet each individual interpretation of what "good" is would be a matter of personal opinion and taste. Such a wide range of possibilities would make a quantifiable truth rather difficult, if not impossible to establish.

Thanks for the dialogue, I'm enjoying it.

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Momma angel wrote

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I just love it (NOT) when someone tries to explain away my experience with God with one of their own.

You misunderstood what I wrote. I said I THOUGHT I felt... . but later found that the experience was a common human one, not a supernatural one.

and you ask this:

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Why do you fight so hard against someone believing?

I don't think the word fight is correct. I don't think I have been overly crude or cruel in what I have said, I can't think of any particularly phrased 'fighting words' that I've issued. I do like truth and I seek it wherever I am. I don't like anyone purporting certainty that is based on nothing other than something a little greater than a gut hunch. That's what being offered here in many instances.

I also don't offer my opinions unless asked or I'm involved in one of these forums. If you don't like what I write or think, try to ignore me.

Joe(how thin is the knife edge on which you balance your beliefs?)Nation

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I am absolutely certain that the faith I have is real to me. I know this for a fact. I cannot prove this to anybody any more than I can prove that God exists or that he sent His Son to redeem the world. Bottom line is...my sureness of my own believes, is after all is said and done. is counts to me.

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AMEN INTREPID!

http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/heart.gif

Joe,

I am sorry I misunderstood that statement. But, it still comes down to you (your side, etc.) telling me (our side, etc.) because we can't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that God exists, then He doesn't.

I cannot comprehend how anyone would want or believe in a God that would have to prove Himself to man. It is just totally blows my mind. If God had to prove Himself to me, that would make me better than God.

And no, you have not used fighting words. That's why I said it was only for those (you) it pertained to.

But Joe, can you understand how I might not being told I am deluded, not living in reality, etc., just because I don't agree with you or others? If I am happy in my beliefs, why try to convince me or others they are not real? I honestly do not understand that.

I do understand those that want it separate from government. I can understand that. But, I have yet to get an answer to this question.

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Momma Angel wrote:

No, it's not to hell with turn the other cheek, Questioner. I do that to the best of my ability. I just won't let anyone call me names or label me without saying something about it. But, that does not mean I have to do the same thing to them.

Of course there will always be those defaming Christianity. And, God willing, there will be a Christian right there to stand up for it.

But why stand up for it? If you are secure in your beliefs, then whatever someone else has to say about it should be meaningless to you. Christians shouldn't feel the need to defend their actions or their beliefs to others, others either believe or have an open, questioning heart, or they don't. The ones that don't are the ones you're making a "stand" against. It really reflects poorly on the supposed "loving" and "pacifist" religion to go to verbal war because someone thinks it is delusional.

I doubt seriously that god needs defending against a non-believer.

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Any one who dosen't like the thought of freedom of religion, should move to another country. Try Bagdad!

The logic is exceptional.

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Questioner wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:
Joe,

I have no problem with you having your own beliefs or opinions. What I do have a problem with is you labeling me. Who are you to tell me that I am deluded, in a fantasy world, etc.?

And, if you will read my post again, it does not say I have a deep feeling of worthlessness! I may have felt that way at one time but I haven't for years!

It's hard having conversations with people sometimes through email, etc. You have to be so careful of what words you use, don't paint with a wide brush, etc. But, unless you actually know someone, I don't think it's fair to label them. I am not deluded! I am happy in my beliefs and I just don't appreciate anyone telling me I am deluded because of what I believe in. I don't do it to you, so please do not do it to me.

He believes Christains are deluded, you believe there is a God that loves you. You might also believe that people that reject God are lost. There are always beliefs and assumptions that one side will make upon the other. Not letting it get to you is much easier than trying to demand that someone else change what they believe.

Questioner, "not letting it get to you" is about the wisest, smartest remark I've heard on any of these religion and spirituality threads. But, then, that could be the last portion of the human ego to go, for most.

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Would you tell your children to say whatever they want to anyone because they should just overlook it or get a thicker skin? Would you honestly tell your children it is okay to call others names because they are different or think differently?

Seems to me this has been a reason quite a few teenagers have taken guns to school ~ retaliating against those that treated them badly. What's wrong with teaching people to treat others with respect? We should just let it keep going and whatever happens, happens?

We all have a responsibility in this world. If everyone would treat everyone with even the smallest of common courtesy, I don't think our problems would be as great as they are.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Would you tell your children to say whatever they want to anyone because they should just overlook it or get a thicker skin? Would you honestly tell your children it is okay to call others names because they are different or think differently?

Of course I wouldn't. And I find no reason for this rebuttle as I doubt very many people set out to bring their children up as foul-mouthed braggarts. And nothing I stated would lead to such a deduction.

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Seems to me this has been a reason quite a few teenagers have taken guns to school ~ retaliating against those that treated them badly. What's wrong with teaching people to treat others with respect? We should just let it keep going and whatever happens, happens?

Bad parenting leads to teenagers taking guns to school. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with teaching our children to treat others with respect.

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We all have a responsibility in this world. If everyone would treat everyone with even the smallest of common courtesy, I don't think our problems would be as great as they are.

Agreed. MA, I respect you and your beliefs, you're a great person, and you're dodging.

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Dodging what? I answer your questions. I tell you what I think and feel. I just want to know if teaching our children to teach others with respect is the right thing to do, then why do we not do it ourselves?

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Momma Angel wrote:

Dodging what? I answer your questions. I tell you what I think and feel. I just want to know if teaching our children to teach others with respect is the right thing to do, then why do we not do it ourselves?

Dodging this:

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But why stand up for it? If you are secure in your beliefs, then whatever someone else has to say about it should be meaningless to you. Christians shouldn't feel the need to defend their actions or their beliefs to others, others either believe or have an open, questioning heart, or they don't. The ones that don't are the ones you're making a "stand" against. It really reflects poorly on the supposed "loving" and "pacifist" religion to go to verbal war because someone thinks it is delusional.

Perhaps you're not dodging it. But i'd really like your feedback on it if you are so inclined.

The upbringing of children is a bit of a seperate issue in my opinion. It's a very important issue, don't mistake me. However, i'm not speaking of the others doing the name calling, but questioning why you as a christian react the way you do to it.

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I react to anyone treating anyone in a demeaning or belittling manner because it is just wrong.

If more wrongs in this world were pointed out and people would stop just going with the flow, I really think we wouldn't have as many problems as we do in this world.

And no, I don't feel it is a separate issue because as a Christian we are supposed to show others what Christianity is. It's the same with children, we must teach them the way to be. So, if we are doing the opposite of what we are teaching them, I think that is pretty confusing, don't you?

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Momma Angel wrote:

I react to anyone treating anyone in a demeaning or belittling manner because it is just wrong.

If more wrongs in this world were pointed out and people would stop just going with the flow, I really think we wouldn't have as many problems as we do in this world.

I understand clearly that you react to people treating you demeaningly. My question is, how do you rationalize the verbal bouts, and your overall attitude about insisting to stand against such remarks, with the tennants of christianity that encourage turning the other cheek and overall pacifism?

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And no, I don't feel it is a separate issue because as a Christian we are supposed to show others what Christianity is. It's the same with children, we must teach them the way to be. So, if we are doing the opposite of what we are teaching them, I think that is pretty confusing, don't you?

Forgive me, I must have misinterpreted the intent in what you were saying. It sounded like your remarks were directed at myself, not at other christians.

However, by ignoring belittling people you are doing what the bible teaches. You also rob those people of the power to belittle you. It's when you react to it that you give them power over you.

The only confusing thing is the dichotomy between you being a christian and your reactions to comments of little or no consequence to your beliefs.

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Believers are the adults, non-believers are the children. Pretty much sums up american protestant thought. I have to say though that american bagan as a society that preceived "All men are created equal" with "men" being understood to be white, christian, property owning males of european extract. Fortunately, for the most part, american understanding has moved forward to seek the idea that all people are equal. If the self-defined christians don't take us back to religious bigotry, we, as a nation, will continue to pursue equality for all.

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Questioner,

To you, they may be of little or no consequence to my beliefs. But, I firmly believe that I am to stand up for my Lord and Savior. And yes, he needs no defending because He could handle it Himself. But, in my defending HIS righteousness, I am showing my love and worship for Him.

And there is no where in the Bible that it says that you should let people treat you like a verbal punching bag. You may call these verbal bouts but I don't. I merely ask why do those that do it feel the need to belittle Christianity? I will not do it to them. I have come close at times, I won't deny that. But I will not do it.

Jesus Himself got very angry in the New Testament, remember? He kicked everyone out of the temple because they were defiling God's house. When people say what they say about Christianity, that is defiling it to me, and I will always stand up for that. But, I won't do it in a way that is meant nastily. I try very hard not to do that. Sometimes, it's hard, but I do my best.

Christian does not mean doormat or stupid.

dys,

That is so unfair. Bigotry? Just where have we posted in here anything displaying bigotry?

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Momma Angel wrote:

Questioner,

To you, they may be of little or no consequence to my beliefs. But, I firmly believe that I am to stand up for my Lord and Savior. And yes, he needs no defending because He could handle it Himself. But, in my defending HIS righteousness, I am showing my love and worship for Him.

I would think he wants you to show his love and worship by loving others and being compassionate. By being an example of his teachings to others.

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And there is no where in the Bible that it says that you should let people treat you like a verbal punching bag. You may call these verbal bouts but I don't. I merely ask why do those that do it feel the need to belittle Christianity? I will not do it to them. I have come close at times, I won't deny that. But I will not do it.

"Turn the other cheek." There are several times when Jesus was personally persecuted for his beliefs, and others. They did nothing. They exemplified what is written. So you don't call them verbal bouts, ok then. I reitterate that they have the right to question what you believe. Unfortunately, as is exampled and written in the bible, the book upon which Christianity bases itself, you are supposed to accept it and ignore it.

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Jesus Himself got very angry in the New Testament, remember? He kicked everyone out of the temple because they were defiling God's house. When people say what they say about Christianity, that is defiling it to me, and I will always stand up for that. But, I won't do it in a way that is meant nastily. I try very hard not to do that. Sometimes, it's hard, but I do my best.

Firstly, you are not Jesus, which I'm sure you're aware of. And there is a fairly substantial difference between the defiling of a temple (in your example, men taking money from people for entrance into the temple, and such things) and the questioning of a religion. I understand that you consider them the same, and I can respect that even though I disagree.

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Christian does not mean doormat or stupid.

It definately doesn't mean stupid. Many people don't understand the principles and real benefits of the christian religion. This misunderstanding generally springs from christians behaving in ways that don't coincide with what they profess to believe in. This has the unfortunate effect of negating all of the positives that are inherent in the christian theology.

However I would argue that Christian does essentially mean doormat. In a world of nonbeleif, ruled by Satan, it could be no other way.

I hesitate to go so far as to say that your reaction to belittling, intended or not, does not coincide with what I have been taught are fundamental christian values. This is why I persist in discussing this point with you, because it seems that your stands could do more harm than good.

You have every right to take offense, although none is intended. And if you so choose, I will drop this right now.

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Momma Angel,

Look at the top line of my signature line....

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Questioner Wrote:

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It definately doesn't mean stupid. Many people don't understand the principles and real benefits of the christian religion. This misunderstanding generally springs from christians behaving in ways that don't coincide with what they profess to believe in. This has the unfortunate effect of negating all of the positives that are inherent in the christian theology.

However I would argue that Christian does essentially mean doormat. In a world of nonbeleif, ruled by Satan, it could be no other way.

I hesitate to go so far as to say that your reaction to belittling, intended or not, does not coincide with what I have been taught are fundamental christian values. This is why I persist in discussing this point with you, because it seems that your stands could do more harm than good.

You have every right to take offense, although none is intended. And if you so choose, I will drop this right now.

Ok, I guess I really am misunderstanding something here. I have from day one professed that I believe it is wrong for anyone to belittle anyone for anything. I do my best to stick to my beliefs the best that I can. My real problem is why would someone that does not believe in Christianity (not necessarily you) feel they would in any way have a right to tell a Christian how to practice Christianity? And I have no problem discussing this with you Questioner. I don't feel offended by you. I just want to do my best to get my views across to you just as you are with me.

No, I'm not Jesus. But, I am human and anger is a human emotion. It is not the anger that is a sin. It is what we do with that anger that is the sin. By expressing my views on what I call just plain common courtesy is not anger from me. I am not angry. I am honestly and sincerely trying to find out why anyone would think it's ok to do some things and expect someone to just accept it? Is it because like you said, you really feel Christians are supposed to be dormats? We are supposed to fight against Satan, not be his footstool. If I gave up the fight just because I was met with resistance, that wouldn't say much for what I believe would it?

Intrepid,

Gotcha. I'm not feeling inferior, superior, or anything like that. I am just very curious and unfortunately, I can't seem to get my point across with the right words. Takes me awhile sometimes. But, as long as Questioner is willing to discuss civilly with me, I am happy he is. I truly want to know the answers to things.

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Momma Angel wrote:

My real problem is why would someone that does not believe in Christianity (not necessarily you) feel they would in any way have a right to tell a Christian how to practice Christianity?

You don't have to believe in something to be able to read up on it's tennants and statutes. Christianity would be a lovely guideline for people to live by, and could even be seriously endorsed by people that don't even believe in god if it weren't for those that profess christianity and go out and do whatever they feel like every day but Sunday. It gives the impression that christianity is little more than a fraternity, not the loving institution that it's theology suggests it should be.

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Is it because like you said, you really feel Christians are supposed to be dormats? We are supposed to fight against Satan, not be his footstool.

And in what way is Satan making you his footstool when others call you names? The only way he can achieve any victory in this is if you react out against those namecallers. Reprimanding people is one thing, saying "I'd appreciate it if you would cease calling me (whatever)". But any reaction over that doesn't jive with what Jesus taught.

You fight against satan by not giving in to his temptations. You fight against him by being an example of love in a world of hate. Not by diminishing that love by returning hate. (dear god, i'm sounding like a preacher).

Thus a professed christian becomes a doormat. You can't retaliate, you must turn the other cheek. I believe there's a thread in which you are currently discussing the erosion of christian morals. Christians believing that they must smite the enemy hand and foot to protect their faith is certainly one of the erosions today.

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Questioner,

You don't seem to understand a single thing I am saying to you. I try to point out how not all Christians are the same and still that same old thing gets thrown up.

Fine, I tell you what. I will just stop. This obviously is not going to be resolved and I certainly do not want to seem to be arguing with you or anyone else.

I honestly wanted some answers. I thought maybe you could answer some things for me because you said you were a Christian at one time(?). I put that question mark there because I honestly don't remember if you used the word Christian or not.

Perhaps it is my inability to get my questions out the right way.

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Should we handle victory the way the Christian god decrees?

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