Should we handle victory the way the Christian god decrees?

englishmajor,
I wholeheartedly agree with you.

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englishmajor, If that was all there was to the religious folks - just believing in their god, that would be okay. What's not acceptable is their push to legislate their religious beliefs on the rest of us. From ID is science class to taking away the rights of women to choose how their body is used to displaying religious artifacts on government buildings and to deny gay marriage based on their religious belief.

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Yes, c.i., I'm not denying that you are right also. It's a highly personal thing and should probably not be discussed in this fashion. The sad fact that some want to push their beliefs on others has been the problem all along. Everyone thinks 'their' religion is the right one. I've tried out more religions than shoes in my day, and my conclusion is that they are all on the wrong track. But like I said, if someone derives peace from some form of religion, that's a good thing. They could be spending their time doing worse things. But, the US Constitution specifically stipulated separation of church and state. If our lawmakers adhered to secular decisions there would not be the problems you addressed; i.e., abortion and gay marriage. But decisions like these have to be made on ethical or moral grounds, or else society erodes, does it not? Oh well, I'm certainly not going to solve the problem. I'm going to bed. Night all.

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Intrepid wrote:

Do you live in the real world, Joe?
Yes.

Do you have all the answers to what people think?
No. And that is one of those annoying intimidation questions the nuns used to ask me. No one can answer that question yes. So what.

Do you know what they believe in and trust in?
Are far as they have told me, yes.

Your delusional world is one of hurt and torment for those whose believes (sic) are different than your own.
Well, one, I'm not the one in the illusional, or delusional, world and two, what people feel comes from themselves and not from me. At first, being on one's own, which is my belief, is terrifically difficult. Believing there is a loving god out there to take care of things is much, much easier, but once one comes to the realization that one can live and thrive and love, set personal limits and goals, and achieve happiness in a real world, it becomes as easier. Life, real life, is hardly ever easy, but once you face reality it becomes clear. You're here and you can do it.

Why should your "realities" overshadow those of other decent folks?
Reality is reality. It's not a character flaw for it to 'overshadow' anything, it just is. The decent folks have to deal with reality intruding into their made-up world.

Why does the entire mood change when one is conversing with a Christian?

You mean changes in a good way, right? In the same way the mood changes when conserving with a Hindu talking about Krishna's recent birthday celebration or a Muslim who today will celebrate the end of Ramadan. I like people of faith, I work with them everyday. We have a good life. When they ask me, as in these forums, what I believe, I tell them. They think I am lost, I tell them I think they are living a fiction. Most of them roll their eyes, but some listen, if only to test their faith. None of them, and that is what I find odd about some of the reactions here, accuse me of anything, including that of being a bigot. Nor, as happens here, do they sneer about me offering my opinion as if it's valueless because it's my opinion.

Why is bigotry so prominent in the world today?

Don'know, is it? Is it bigotry to try to hold scientific research hostage to a religious test before proceeding to examine the possibilites of stem cells? Is it bigotry to put two more men on the Supreme Court whose Church teaches that women in marriage must be subservivent to their husbands? Do we have the faith to believe they will uphold the Fourteenth Amendment rather than Christian dogma? Is it bigotry to bring forth Intelligent Design as if it were Science?

Wait. Funny story. NY City Council just passed, or re-instated, the law that allows for free parking on Sundays. Why Sundays, they were asked? "Well," they said, "we should have one day of free parking in the city AND it's the day people go to church. (All non-Christian believers scratched their heads on that one.) So someone said "Wait. How about No Toll Tuesdays? Everyone still gets a free day." There was outrage. Was that bigotry?

Momma Angel wrote:

Quote:

Psychopathic Personality Disorder? Are you a psychiatrist or did you just stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night, Joe.

Does that answer mean you didn't look it up?

Deep feelings of worthlessness.

==

There was a time in the United States when religious people were in the forefront in the battle for Civil Rights, for Racial Equality, for Peace and Justice. I was proudly amongst them, for we were making a more open nation. Today, the children of those same people seem to be engaged in a fight for reversal of those gains. They clamor for war in the name of the Prince of Peace, they seek to restrict individual freedoms and scientific research and shout down their opposition as unpatriotic, heathens and bigots.

I must have looked away for a moment whilst they made that U-turn. Do they really think Jesus is leading them in that direction?

Joe( He's sitting on the curb with me. Nice Guy, a little lost though)Nation

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That's precisely why I make occasional forays into these forums, Joe (pounding the pulpit) Nation.

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Joe,

I have no problem with you having your own beliefs or opinions. What I do have a problem with is you labeling me. Who are you to tell me that I am deluded, in a fantasy world, etc.?

And, if you will read my post again, it does not say I have a deep feeling of worthlessness! I may have felt that way at one time but I haven't for years!

It's hard having conversations with people sometimes through email, etc. You have to be so careful of what words you use, don't paint with a wide brush, etc. But, unless you actually know someone, I don't think it's fair to label them. I am not deluded! I am happy in my beliefs and I just don't appreciate anyone telling me I am deluded because of what I believe in. I don't do it to you, so please do not do it to me.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Joe,

I have no problem with you having your own beliefs or opinions. What I do have a problem with is you labeling me. Who are you to tell me that I am deluded, in a fantasy world, etc.?

And, if you will read my post again, it does not say I have a deep feeling of worthlessness! I may have felt that way at one time but I haven't for years!

It's hard having conversations with people sometimes through email, etc. You have to be so careful of what words you use, don't paint with a wide brush, etc. But, unless you actually know someone, I don't think it's fair to label them. I am not deluded! I am happy in my beliefs and I just don't appreciate anyone telling me I am deluded because of what I believe in. I don't do it to you, so please do not do it to me.

He believes Christains are deluded, you believe there is a God that loves you. You might also believe that people that reject God are lost. There are always beliefs and assumptions that one side will make upon the other. Not letting it get to you is much easier than trying to demand that someone else change what they believe.

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Questioner wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:
Joe,

I have no problem with you having your own beliefs or opinions. What I do have a problem with is you labeling me. Who are you to tell me that I am deluded, in a fantasy world, etc.?

And, if you will read my post again, it does not say I have a deep feeling of worthlessness! I may have felt that way at one time but I haven't for years!

It's hard having conversations with people sometimes through email, etc. You have to be so careful of what words you use, don't paint with a wide brush, etc. But, unless you actually know someone, I don't think it's fair to label them. I am not deluded! I am happy in my beliefs and I just don't appreciate anyone telling me I am deluded because of what I believe in. I don't do it to you, so please do not do it to me.

He believes Christains are deluded, you believe there is a God that loves you. You might also believe that people that reject God are lost. There are always beliefs and assumptions that one side will make upon the other. Not letting it get to you is much easier than trying to demand that someone else change what they believe.

But there is also that one factor that is intangible for the non believer and quite real for the believer: the experience of God. Nobody can tell me that God does not exist; and, because I have experienced God, I believe the testimony of others who also have experienced God. Momma Angel eloquently described the change that this experience made in her life. Those who do not believe wish to assign almost any other explanation to that phenomenon. Believers, however, know it to be true.

Most believers also believe it is available to anybody who wants it.

To deny the truth of this is akin to denying the reality of the Holocaust because you did not personally witness it or to deny that Caruso could sing because you never heard him or to deny the existence of anything because you have not seen or heard it.

Wanting something to be true, however, does not necessarily make it so. And it is for certain that wanting something not to be true does not necessarily make it so.

Still those who have experienced the reality, do have certainty.

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Foxfyre!

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Quote:

Wanting something to be true, however, does not necessarily make it so. And it is for certain that wanting something not to be true does not necessarily make it so.

Still those who have experienced the reality, do have certainty.

Read your words again.

(BTW speaking of reading again: I was relating to some of my long ago classmates at East Catholic (1965) how Foxfyre skewered my mixing up of Peter with Paul with a sprinkling of Timothy.... they made me promise to re-read the New Testament before commenting on any more scripture or they would write to Sister Helen and have her thrash me. There is so much I have forgotten.)

Wanting an experience, no matter how ecstatic or enlightening, to be the experience of God, to be therefore real, is the same as wanting something to be true. It ain't necessarily so. It might be a fantastic sensation, a person might be driven to extremes of joy, proclaim visions, spout verses in unknown tongues, but to then leap to the conclusion that this experience implies the presence and experience of God defies logic and we are back to faith.

I want you to know I too have experienced profound happenings. I thought I felt the actual presence of God on at least two occasions, one, in an open field with a single cloud in the sky, I was filled with this sense of uncontrolled joy, the other in a small room in Western Montana as I wept in total despair and loneliness.

I have been in a revival tent when the air appeared to be on fire. We all saw it. People fell down, out cold, in it's presence. Maranatha!

I've been deep in meditation when an electrical shock crashed into my consciousness and I sat there while my body hummed like a struck bell.

And there were more, some with ganja and angels, some without either.

I thought these were unique happenings until I did more study. These experiences of mine are human experiences, reported as happening in every culture, in every age from the shamans of the caves in France to the aborigines of Australia to the sufis of the Middle East. It is the power of the human brain to make such happenings happen and nothing more.

You can be as sure of it as you want to be, it doesn't, as you said so yourself, make it true. And afterall, I am an expert on being sure about Peter and Paul and being wrong.

Joe(you make me so humble)Nation

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Joe Nation wrote:

Quote:
Wanting something to be true, however, does not necessarily make it so. And it is for certain that wanting something not to be true does not necessarily make it so.

Still those who have experienced the reality, do have certainty.

Read your words again.

(BTW speaking of reading again: I was relating to some of my long ago classmates at East Catholic (1965) how Foxfyre skewered my mixing up of Peter with Paul with a sprinkling of Timothy.... they made me promise to re-read the New Testament before commenting on any more scripture or they would write to Sister Helen and have her thrash me. There is so much I have forgotten.)

Wanting an experience, no matter how ecstatic or enlightening, to be the experience of God, to be therefore real, is the same as wanting something to be true. It ain't necessarily so. It might be a fantastic sensation, a person might be driven to extremes of joy, proclaim visions, spout verses in unknown tongues, but to then leap to the conclusion that this experience implies the presence and experience of God defies logic and we are back to faith.

I want you to know I too have experienced profound happenings. I thought I felt the actual presence of God on at least two occasions, one, in an open field with a single cloud in the sky, I was filled with this sense of uncontrolled joy, the other in a small room in Western Montana as I wept in total despair and loneliness.

I have been in a revival tent when the air appeared to be on fire. We all saw it. People fell down, out cold, in it's presence. Maranatha!

I've been deep in meditation when an electrical shock crashed into my consciousness and I sat there while my body hummed like a struck bell.

And there were more, some with ganja and angels, some without either.

I thought these were unique happenings until I did more study. These experiences of mine are human experiences, reported as happening in every culture, in every age from the shamans of the caves in France to the aborigines of Australia to the sufis of the Middle East. It is the power of the human brain to make such happenings happen and nothing more.

You can be as sure of it as you want to be, it doesn't, as you said so yourself, make it true. And afterall, I am an expert on being sure about Peter and Paul and being wrong.

Joe(you make me so humble)Nation

I just love it (NOT) when someone tries to explain away my experience with God with one of their own. The only difference here is I do not rely on what man says about these experiences. I rely on the experiences themselves. I know my experiences were with God. If yours weren't, fine. Then yours weren't. Why do you fight so hard against someone believing?

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Joe writes

Quote:

You can be as sure of it as you want to be, it doesn't, as you said so yourself, make it true. And afterall, I am an expert on being sure about Peter and Paul and being wrong.

Peter and Paul were wrong in some of their expectations; but who is not wrong in some of their expectations? We have no authority to fault them for being wrong in their core beliefs or in the experiences they related, however, because they were there and we were not.

We've heard the stories: The man on the rooftop with the water rising confident that God would hear his prayer and rescue him, so he waved off the canoe, the motor boat, and the helicopter that came by and then wondered why he was drowning. Or the blond who prayed to win just a small price in the lottery to solve a financial emergency. After three drawings and she failed to win, she asked God, "Why?" He replied: "Sweetheart, buy a ticket." (Attention to the clueless: these are JOKES! Though they are instructive as metaphors, they are NOT to be taken seriously, okay")

What they jokes do illustrate is that answers to our prayers, the experiences of God, do indeed appear as normal experiences. And there are plenty of people who will explain them away, to point out your delusion, to pooh pooh them as coincidence or hallucinations. But I maintain a miracle by natural means is no less a miracle. Sometimes the timing is everything. And sometimes we pray the timeless prayer: "Lord I believe. Help my unbelief." Nobody, not even the most devout believer, is never plagued with doubt.

And every now and then we who believe are blessed in a way that nobody can explain away by any means. We were there. The others were not.

And the question always remains: Why is it so important to some people to deny the existence of God even to the point they claim certainty of that? To attempt to destroy the faith of one who believes? To ridicule and hold in scorn one who believes? Why is that? Where does that come from?

Many believers have an answer for it, but it is even more incomprehensible to the nonbeliever as is the certainty of God. Smile

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Foxfyre wrote:

But there is also that one factor that is intangible for the non believer and quite real for the believer: the experience of God. Nobody can tell me that God does not exist; and, because I have experienced God, I believe the testimony of others who also have experienced God. Momma Angel eloquently described the change that this experience made in her life. Those who do not believe wish to assign almost any other explanation to that phenomenon. Believers, however, know it to be true.

I completely understand that. It is a good point. However it doesn't really debunk what I was saying. The beliefs a christian holds MUST be the sole domain of the christian that holds them. They cannot be dispersed among non-believers as a truth, no matter how profound the experience may be.

Quote:

Most believers also believe it is available to anybody who wants it.

To deny the truth of this is akin to denying the reality of the Holocaust because you did not personally witness it or to deny that Caruso could sing because you never heard him or to deny the existence of anything because you have not seen or heard it.

I would disagree with your analogy. My disagreement stems from the fact that we have physical evidence that such events have or have not taken place. That knowledge is something that can be learned if desired.

Yes, non believers may also convert and then have the experience you have described. However I know that many christians have NOT had the same or similar experience, many that I know have had no such experience at all. This points to a more individualistic feeling or knowledge than that of the Holocaust or Caruso singing. Those examples may be experienced by anyone anytime they choose to look them up.

Quote:

Wanting something to be true, however, does not necessarily make it so. And it is for certain that wanting something not to be true does not necessarily make it so.

Still those who have experienced the reality, do have certainty.

As an aside, there are numerous accounts of people that have claimed to have been abducted by UFO's. They believe that their experiences were factual, the rest of the world believes they are lunatics. Each person has beliefs that they hold as truth. The fact that ones belief may contradict what you think of yourself does not allow you the right to insist that they terminate that belief.

Thus I said, it's best to just ignore such things and not let them get to you, for debate will typically not be enough to sway someone in what they believe about you.

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Momma Angel wrote:

I just love it (NOT) when someone tries to explain away my experience with God with one of their own. The only difference here is I do not rely on what man says about these experiences. I rely on the experiences themselves. I know my experiences were with God. If yours weren't, fine. Then yours weren't. Why do you fight so hard against someone believing?

And why do you fight so hard to impress upon everyone that your beliefs are untouchable? If you truly believe they are, then there's no reason for you to defend them.

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Questioner wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:

I just love it (NOT) when someone tries to explain away my experience with God with one of their own. The only difference here is I do not rely on what man says about these experiences. I rely on the experiences themselves. I know my experiences were with God. If yours weren't, fine. Then yours weren't. Why do you fight so hard against someone believing?

And why do you fight so hard to impress upon everyone that your beliefs are untouchable? If you truly believe they are, then there's no reason for you to defend them.

Questioner,

I will stand up for my beliefs with my dying breath. The harder someone tries to tell me they are fantasy, etc., the stronger they become. I see the problem as everyone in the U.S. has freedom of religion already. Have had it for how many years now? I just feel that what some really want is freedom from religion.

I have not called anyone a lunatic for what they believe or don't believe. I don't call anyone deluded for what they believe or don't believe. I ask for common courtesy and I get told that I should expect it and get a thicker skin. Well, I'm not going to accept being treated that way. No one has to accept being treated like that.

If you (whoever the you are) believe you are so right, I could ask the same of you. Is there a reason you feel you need to defend what you believe or don't believe? And if you feel you need to defend them, can't you do it in a more civil manner?

I only mean that you as the ones that have done these things. I know not everyone does it.

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Questioner writes

Quote:

I would disagree with your analogy. My disagreement stems from the fact that we have physical evidence that such events have or have not taken place. That knowledge is something that can be learned if desired.

Yes, non believers may also convert and then have the experience you have described. However I know that many christians have NOT had the same or similar experience, many that I know have had no such experience at all. This points to a more individualistic feeling or knowledge than that of the Holocaust or Caruso singing. Those examples may be experienced by anyone anytime they choose to look them up.

Do you believe there are other living things in the universe? Do you believe there are other yet unseen planets revolving around distant stars? Why do you believe that? There is yet no way to prove it.

I used the illustrations that I did because they are also unprovable to one who has not seen, heard, or experienced the proof. Going back to the Rogers and Hammerstein musical: "The King and I". The crown prince had never seen snow and was quite dubious when he was told of it. Unless you trust the source of the information, belief is difficult to come by.

If you were told of numerous great singers but found each one disapponting, how confident would you be that Caruso was a great singer if you had not yet heard him? But if you had good experiences with the others, would you not be looking forward to Caruso with optimistic anticipation? Such is the faith that children have in the words of a good parent. Such is the way it is for those who have experienced the promises of God.

Quote:

As an aside, there are numerous accounts of people that have claimed to have been abducted by UFO's. They believe that their experiences were factual, the rest of the world believes they are lunatics. Each person has beliefs that they hold as truth. The fact that ones belief may contradict what you think of yourself does not allow you the right to insist that they terminate that belief.

This is why I say that God can not be proved to anybody but yourself. He has to be experienced. And you and I are in agreement on one point. I do not have the right, nor would it be kind, constructive, or effetive for me to demand that you accept my belief. If the circumstance is right, I might recommend it just as I would recommend a Caruso concert.

We do have the right to insist just about anything, of course, but in matters of belief, we have no power or authority to make it happen. It certainly would usually not be constructive to do so when it comes to other people's tastes, beliefs, or convictions.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Questioner wrote:
Momma Angel wrote:

I just love it (NOT) when someone tries to explain away my experience with God with one of their own. The only difference here is I do not rely on what man says about these experiences. I rely on the experiences themselves. I know my experiences were with God. If yours weren't, fine. Then yours weren't. Why do you fight so hard against someone believing?

And why do you fight so hard to impress upon everyone that your beliefs are untouchable? If you truly believe they are, then there's no reason for you to defend them.

Questioner,

I will stand up for my beliefs with my dying breath. The harder someone tries to tell me they are fantasy, etc., the stronger they become. I see the problem as everyone in the U.S. has freedom of religion already. Have had it for how many years now? I just feel that what some really want is freedom from religion.

I have not called anyone a lunatic for what they believe or don't believe. I don't call anyone deluded for what they believe or don't believe. I ask for common courtesy and I get told that I should expect it and get a thicker skin. Well, I'm not going to accept being treated that way. No one has to accept being treated like that.

So to hell with "turn the other cheek" then. Come on MA, you know as well as I do that there will ALWAYS be people out to defame christianity. Whether it be Satan acting through them, or just the way mankind is. Forgoing the life of peace you are taught to believe in to defend those beliefs is rather counter productive.

I applaud your faith. I honestly wish I had it.

Quote:

If you (whoever the you are) believe you are so right, I could ask the same of you. Is there a reason you feel you need to defend what you believe or don't believe? And if you feel you need to defend them, can't you do it in a more civil manner?

Again, I applaud you for taking the higher ground by not ridiculing people by namecalling and other such business. However, if someone calls a belief shared by millions of people "deluded", why is it that you insist that you're the one that must take it personally? It's someones opinion, and it's an opinion shared by millions. Just like your belief in god is shared by millions.

If your faith is in danger of being rattled by one person's irreverant comment then there's a larger issue here. I don't think yours is, which is why your reactions continue to confound me.

With sincere respect.

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Right, Momma. I want freedom from religion. That's true freedom.

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Momma Angel,
Remember how Jesus was called names, scorned, ridiculed, beaten and crucified? He did not argue with his detractors. Rather, he loved them and gave them the offer of salvation. He then gave his Apostles the commission to go out into the world and spread his word of truth. They too were, at times, held in contempt. They did not give up. You must remember that some people actually get some sense of pleasure from mocking Christians, their faith and, indeed, God. Just as children in the schoolyard taunt other children, these poor souls find that they must do the same because they do not know how to handle it otherwise.

Let's say someone sees a child in a mall that has a deformity or is mentally challenged. The child says hi and smiles. How many people walk away or ignore the child out of fear and ignorance? We have all seen it happen. Some of the folks reading this may be among them. As a Christian with a faith in God and the understanding that there are people with differences, it saddens me to see this. What are they afraid of? Some people probably think I am, in some way, weird when I speak to such a child, smile at them and show them a loving attitude. After all, they are God's children too. I think that is the way some people look at us as Christians. They don't know what to make of us and don't know how to treat us as normal, intelligent human beings.

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No, it's not to hell with turn the other cheek, Questioner. I do that to the best of my ability. I just won't let anyone call me names or label me without saying something about it. But, that does not mean I have to do the same thing to them.

Of course there will always be those defaming Christianity. And, God willing, there will be a Christian right there to stand up for it.

edgar,

If you want freedom from religion, then don't practice it. Don't post in the spirituality and religion forums, don't get in a conversation about religion, ignore the word God wherever you see it. Don't even speak the name of God. If you want freedom from religion, you are the only one that can take yourself away from it. We are not forcing it upon you. I am not trying to be smart-mouthed Edgar. I really am not. I just don't understand why anyone that would want freedom from religion would seemingly surround themselves by it.

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Should we handle victory the way the Christian god decrees?

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