Why is only one side of this story published?

@Lash,

Turkey is a member of NATO, it wanted the missiles there, as did Cuba for that matter.

That's not what buffer zones are, that's front line.

America also had to secretly agree not to invade Cuba, so overall it was a good thing.

Two Superpowers squared up to each other, there was a naval blockade and a lot of sabre rattling but in the end both sides backed down and disarmed.

This is nothing like that it's an invasion of a sovereign power. Kennedy did not invade Cuba, nor did Kruschev invade Turkey.

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@Lash,

What the USA didn't do is bomb Cuba back to the Stone Age; Castro was allied with the Warsaw Pact until it fell apart – he ruled until 2008 and died, peacefully, of old age eight years later. The showdown was between the two superpowers, not the US vs Cuba – it was never suggested that we install a puppet government in Havana. Parallels with the current situation in Ukraine can be made but the context is very different. Anyway, the argument that people should be denied their right to independent nationhood when it offends another country because it always happens that way violates the basic tenets of democracy and national sovereignty. It's an excuse not a justification.

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@hightor,

The only parallel I’m making is that it causes great dangerous upheaval when a threatening entity tries to stake a claim near our borders.

Surprising pushback on that basic fact.

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@Lash,

Any pushback is directed at the endless repetition and acceptance of folly and failure, not at you. It's as if we're still basically at the mercy of sticks and stones, now at hypersonic speed. The planet is undergoing climatic convulsions threatening much of the natural world and our way of life as we know it. Instead of addressing this, we're waiting around to see who wields a bigger stick since everyone knows how well that always works out. Anthropogenic climate change is too slow. Covid is so over. Maybe we can cause a wheat shortage. Hell, why not a nuclear exchange? Drill,baby, drill!

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@engineer,

engineer wrote:

In the Cuban missile crisis, the US did not bomb Havana into submission

How does that change what I commented on - the concept of buffer zones or States being important to super powers?

engineer wrote:

The whole idea of a "buffer state" is ridiculous,

If in fact Russia had put it's nukes in cuba - there is valid argument it would have started WW3, because 'Russia' would have been too close to the US.

How a country handles the breach of a buffer zone is a related but separate topic with its own reasoning required. Invasion should only ever be a last resort to a true threat. That doesn't seem at all the case in Russia / Ukraine. 'Pre-emptive strikes' are almost never justified, and are usually used by imperialistic nations.

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@vikorr,

Quote:

If in fact Russia had put it's nukes in cuba...

...we would have declared our nukes in Turkey. (I think it was an open secret.)

The "buffer state" concept is obsolete; it's based on marching legions and mounted cavalry.

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@hightor,

Not trying to be a stickler, but if we see buffer states and chess board global realpolitik are still being used, they aren’t obsolete. I understand you’d like to render them obsolete.

I mean, if their tribe is caught hunting on your tribe’s side if the river, there will be a war party.

If your neighbor plants a tree that sheds blooms on your property…

It’s a big thing since man looked up and saw another man.

If climate change doesn’t off us first, this concept will probably be the thing that wipes us out. Working together to solve our common problems doesn’t even make the list of ways for mankind to interact.

I wish it was obsolete.

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@Lash,

Even in the comparatively minature (Russia conducting 'war games' on the Ukrainian border before the invasion) - no country wants unallied wargames on their border because there is no buffer / no early warning. All wargames on unfriendly borders are seen as potentially hostile for this reason. Similar can be said for why arms races occur. I doubt this will ever be an obsolete concept.

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@vikorr,

(nodding)
War games, building or expanding bases, sending troops near your borders—a pretty potent set of non-verbal communications. The universal language.

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@Lash,

Ok.

So, who built these military bases that you allude to, and where did they build them?

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@bulmabriefs144,

bulmabriefs144 wrote:

The point, and the part that is only one side of the story is while Ukraine wants to join NATO, it is clearly nothing to do with the fact that Ukraine's leader is a US-run puppet or that as far back as February, weapons were promised to Ukraine. Or that there are nine US bases in Ukraine.

https://aseanarchitectcouncil.org/a-military-expert-has-revealed-9-secret-us-bases-in-ukraine/

So again, if Mexico had Chinese bases, if I were president anyway, I would start rolling out the tanks. So I fully expect someone else to do the same if it's in their backyard. The sheer amount of intellectual dishonesty is stunning.

So, again, who built bases where, that from what I gather, Lash and you are saying Putin is justifying the rolling out of tanks?

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I’ve pointed out more than once that questioning the accuracy of the carefully curated narrative re Putin’s war doesn’t equate to ‘justifying’ Putin’s response, like most here are desperate to do.

But, just a little googling of an inquisitive citizen appears that we’ve been sending lots of troops to Ukraine for a while.

https://www.7atc.army.mil/JMTGU/

Excerpt:

Joint Multinational Training Group-Ukraine is the name given to the mission of training, equipping, training center development and doctrinal assistance to the Ukrainian armed forces. 7th Army Training Command oversees the JMTG-U mission at the Yavoriv Combat Training Center, most recently manned by Task Force Gator, 53rd Infantry Brigade Combat Team, Florida Army National Guard.

In February, U.S. European Command repositioned Task Force Gator to Grafenwoehr, Germany.

Mentor and Advise Armed Forces of Ukraine Trainers: Task Force Gator Soldiers, joined by NATO allies and partners, mentor and advise Armed Forces of Ukraine Observer Controller / Trainers at the Combat Training Center located near Yavoriv. This is accomplished by employing a "train-the-trainer" approach, enabling Ukrainians to take the lead in training rotational brigades.

Enable Combat Training Center Capability and Capacity: Task Force Gator works with Armed Forces of Ukraine partners at the Combat Training Center - Yavoriv to develop and implement systems to improve combat training and increase training center capacity. Combat Training Center - Yavoriv delivers Brigade-and-below collective training for Armed Forces of Ukraine Brigades.

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I don't think the US has denied helping to train the soldiers and upgrade the military readiness of our allies in many places around the world. We do, after all, sell them a lot of weapons systems.

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@hightor,

And, we’ve established that doing so in the back yard of certain countries is intentional provocation.

Which we accomplished in the Russian-Ukrainian issue.

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@Lash,

Has intention actually been "established"? I thought we agreed that some countries claim they are "threatened" by activities within a neighboring country but don't you think we should look more closely at such claims? They are often cooked up to justify crackdowns on domestic political opposition. I haven't seen any evidence that the US (and its European allies) decided to aid Ukraine in order to "intentionally provoke" Russia. To what end? Russia had already seized Crimea and was conducting a proxy war in the east of Ukraine. I don't think Putin did this to intentionally threaten the USA – but I do think our military aid to Ukraine was a deliberate response to defend Ukraine's sovereignty. If there was "provocation" it was on the part of the invading country – it's hard to think of a provocation more severe than a military invasion and appropriation of another country's real estate, as was done in 2014, or the wholesale destruction of a country's civilian infrastructure as is being done now.

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@hightor,

Considering all the historical brinkmanship around ‘the universal language’ of making military moves close to adversarial countries, I’m satisfied that the US and NATO knew extending their reach around Russia was provocative. I believe it was intentional. But, Russia’s grab of Crimea was the same.

Maybe the creation of NATO was the first adversarial move; maybe something else preceded that…

I think the use of NATO’s military base Yavoriv near Lviv, Ukraine practically compelled a response from Russia.

I don’t feel the need to convince anyone else. It has been good to be able to talk it out and examine ideas. I’ve appreciated your contributions. There’s probably so much we don’t know.

I just hope this is over very soon, but I’m not too confident that this war isn’t one of many increasingly dangerous steps toward an even more regrettable outcome.

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@Lash,

Stalin setting up his own puppet government and locking up members of the Free Polish army predated the forming of NATO by quite a long time.

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@Lash,

I had asked you Do you (support) or (denounce) the actions of Volodymyr Zelenskyy and the Ukraine people, because you had recently wrote:

Quote:

The Ukrainian people are incredibly brave.
I’ve heard so much audio and seen interviews that really compel respect.

Based on that recent post, I thought you would have answered by saying that you do indeed (support) the actions of Volodymyr Zelenskyy and the Ukraine people.

Maybe I'm wrong and I'm just reading too much into your post.

I had also asked you Do you (support) or (denounce) the actions of Vladimir Putin,
because you had recently wrote:

Quote:

1. Assassination of Putin seems to be the best path forward. Of course, better not miss.

2. I think he is the driving force behind this reconstitution of the USSR. Russian citizens aren’t behind it.

3. Putin’s getting older, pines for when he was a global power, and is insinuating that he’d use nukes to get what he wants.

4. I think all paths lead to a world war featuring nuclear weapons.

5. Time to wake up spooks in Russia.

Based on your own posting, I thought you would have answered by saying that you indeed (denounce) the actions of Vladimir Putin.

Maybe I'm wrong and I'm simply reading too much into your previous postings.

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@Lash,

This was your actual response to me, when I had posed those two questions to you.

Quote:

I’ve been alive long enough to know that viewers hundreds or thousands of miles away from a war or battle do👏🏻not👏🏻know what exactly is happening in the fighting.

I also know the mainstream news outlets 1. make mistakes (fog of war), 2. create narratives and 3. listen to CIA / shady military aligned henchmen who have agendas.

Thus, I don’t pretend to know enough to make a declaration, but I feel very comfortable asking questions and refuting revisionist histories tailored to support favored opinions.

Life (nor war) is as black and white as so many people here think it is.

You also responding to those two questions I posed by saying to me:

Quote:

Sounds like a great question for the McCarthy hearing.

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I keep reminding myself that I do not know 100% of the truth about Ukraine, Putin, or interference between the two by other countries, including my own.

Even if I did know all the facts, I very likely wouldn’t feel comfortable making a blanket approval or condemnation of either of them. No one is pristine. For instance, I’ve seen enough interviews with people on the ground helping African students evacuate Ukraine and rehouse to feel comfortable saying there is a strong element of virulent anti-black racism within Ukrainian law enforcement. What I have less proof of is accusations that there has been bloody fighting for years by groups of Ukrainians under the direction of Zelenskyy against pro-Russia groups around Donbass.

Further, I don’t even know how to process that. If it is happening, is it justified? What would I be doing or hoping for if I were in Ukraine? What would I be doing or hoping for if I was the president of Russia? The president of the US? The chancellor of Germany?

So, I’m trying to couch a lot of my opinions about it with “I think” or “I believe.”

The only thing I can say without reservation is that I’d like the carnage to stop asap.

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Why is only one side of this story published?

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