JW, the thread is about perceived unpatriotic behaviour by the "left". It's unclear exactly who fits into this catagory, but whoever they are, they are loathed by some people who consider themselves "right". It's all smoke and mirror's. Magginkat's reply was out of frustration that so many people will call someone like her unpatriotic despite the fact that she and many of her family have served. It appears to me that many folks are wrapping themselves in the flag yet offer nothing but ridicule at her family's sacrifices. I think we all need a collective breath and a deep sigh. As said by Pogo, many years before, "We have met the enemy and he is us"
DL...go back and read the article. It's not about patriotism at all. You just want it to be about patriotism LOL.
Glitterbag needs to re-read it also, or so it appears.
Some women wanted to go to Iraq, but now
they face justice instead.
Might be this is the reason, some above named don't register?
JustWonders wrote:DL...go back and read the article. It's not about patriotism at all. You just want it to be about patriotism LOL.
Read the hot air and dramaprop in the thread.
JustWonders wrote:DL...go back and read the article. It's not about patriotism at all. You just want it to be about patriotism LOL.
Exactly what is it about?
"Lest this argument be dismissed as an attack on leftist Americans' patriotism, let it be clear that leftists' patriotism is not the issue here. Their honesty is."
Well, it ain't about intrepidity, so i think you needn't bother too much with what it may purport to be about.
joefromchicago wrote:A strawman tied up with bootstrapping and knocked down with an ipse dixit. Well done, Dennis Prager, you've again met our lowest expectations. Now go pick up your paycheck.
Criticism without foundation.
JW, Well I took your advice, held my nose and re-read Dennis Prager's passive-aggressive take on modern times. What I hear is that the people that Dennis thinks are on the "left" are at core dishonest and only claim to support the troops because they fear social consequences. I am not claiming to be the only one hear to be able to read Prager's prose and be disquieted by his propaganda, but in a way I admire his willingness to contort opinion into a morass of social disregard.
I get the sense that Prager high opinion of war clouds his appreciation for what actually is happening to blood-pumping Americans in Iraq. For the time being let's suspend the idea that this is a good or bad war to be in. I can't be the only person on this thread that has second hand knowledge from a neighbor, relative or co-worker what is happening in Iraq. I know you find personal experience kind of creepy in support of internet discussions, however, I recall with great clarity the stories by my parents and their friends and the neighbor accross the street who was in the French underground regarding WWII. Everyone is glad we won, we had to win and we should thank our parents and grandparents for presenting us with a safer place to live.
Families made terrible sacrifices for WWII in the form of lost loved ones, maimed loved ones, and the poor souls who returned to the country after being tortured in Japanese prison camps. To say that people can support the troops yet be destressed over the loss of a son, daughter, husband or father is somehow dishonest,,,,,,is unbalanced. Anybody on your block throw a party everytime someone dies for Uncle Sam???? Of course not, only the extremists we are fighting think death is better than life. For the families and friends of our military forces, it is more likely we will throw a party upon their safe return.
You are entitled to your opinion, but as far as I am concerned, this is my country, right or wrong. It is not unpatriotic or dishonest to urge my government to use the best possible judgment in order to safeguard our troops, our allies and the people here in this country. It is everyone's duty. Expect the best out of our leaders, someone's life depends on it.
FreeDuck wrote:I brought up the fact that I didn't think I could really support the troops if I didn't support the war, and immediately got piled on by a bunch of righties as if I was actively blaming, opposing, and condemning them, or as if I hated the military.
But it doesn't really matter. Nobody supports the troops. The right sure doesn't. They send them off as cannon fodder, deny their deaths, cut their VA benefits, and then wave the flag in their faces. Or they send them off to be torture's handmaiden and when the pictures hit the paper they sell the "few bad apples" down the river. And heaven help them if they run for office against a Republican any time in the future -- they will be slimed for the very service we are supposed to respect. Rah rah rah.
So, tighty righties, get off that high horse and quit hiding behind your yellow ribbons and your porch flags. You don't support a damn thing but greed, gluttony and exploitation.
Disclaimer: The words above were not intended to be any more a coherent argument than the article posted.
Well said freeduck (Almost)
The most damning claim you make is that the Right sends troops off as cannon fodder. I doubt anyone believes that Lefties who don't, truly, support our troops in Iraq want them to die. In fact this is really the gist of a Lefty's claim for supporting the troops: He or she doesn't want them to die.
Fair enough. I do believe Lefties would like us to lose in Iraq without a single American casualty. That they do is just additional evidence of their irrational thought, but I would never say that they didn't care about our young men and women in Iraq (at least not the majority of them).
But now we find a Lefty (FD) who just can't resist arguing that Righties don't care whether or not American men and women die in Iraq.
You approached honesty by acknowleding that you cannot "support" the troops. (Again, I know full well that this doesn't mean that you wish them harm), but then you had to allow your partisanship to take over and blame it
all on Republicans. Maybe you were being honest in that argument. If so you were not being rational.
Lash, don't you find the argument that "the left" is not actually unpatriotic, just not honest about what they actually believe, specious? If you truly believe Prager's statements are rooted in truth, you really need to talk to people of differing opinion in a more moderate forum. It's easy to get your shorts in a knot over some of the crap that shows up here, but sitting face to face with someone who is slightly to the left or right of your position can be a freeing experience. I wish people here would take the time to learn a little about other opinion, instead of just going on the attack over what they "assume" someone believes.
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:glitterbag wrote:JW, Well I took your advice, held my nose and re-read Dennis Prager's passive-aggressive take on modern times. What I hear is that the people that Dennis thinks are on the "left" are at core dishonest and only claim to support the troops because they fear social consequences.
BINGO!
I am not claiming to be the only one hear to be able to read Prager's prose and be disquieted by his propaganda, but in a way I admire his willingness to contort opinion into a morass of social disregard.
I get the sense that Prager high opinion of war clouds his appreciation for what actually is happening to blood-pumping Americans in Iraq. For the time being let's suspend the idea that this is a good or bad war to be in. I can't be the only person on this thread that has second hand knowledge from a neighbor, relative or co-worker what is happening in Iraq. I know you find personal experience kind of creepy in support of internet discussions, however, I recall with great clarity the stories by my parents and their friends and the neighbor accross the street who was in the French underground regarding WWII. Everyone is glad we won, we had to win and we should thank our parents and grandparents for presenting us with a safer place to live.
Families made terrible sacrifices for WWII in the form of lost loved ones, maimed loved ones, and the poor souls who returned to the country after being tortured in Japanese prison camps. To say that people can support the troops yet be destressed over the loss of a son, daughter, husband or father is somehow dishonest,,,,,,is unbalanced. Anybody on your block throw a party everytime someone dies for Uncle Sam???? Of course not, only the extremists we are fighting think death is better than life. For the families and friends of our military forces, it is more likely we will throw a party upon their safe return.
You are entitled to your opinion, but as far as I am concerned, this is my country, right or wrong. It is not unpatriotic or dishonest to urge my government to use the best possible judgment in order to safeguard our troops, our allies and the people here in this country. It is everyone's duty. Expect the best out of our leaders, someone's life depends on it.
Again, the author doesn't, necessarily, question the patriotism of the Left.
What it comes down to is what does "support the troops mean."
If it means simply hoping that they all come back home alive and whole, than without doubt the Left supports the troops.
If it means believing that their sacrifices are of value, that their work is just, and hoping that they succeed, then the Left does not support the troops.
Without a doubt the Left feels politcally compelled to toss in "support the troops" at every opportunity. Yes they love the troops as fellow Americans, but they do not hope that they will succeed in their missions.
While we debate back and forth on this issue, it is unquestionable that the troops view "support" as something much more than hoping they make it home alive.
Should be:
Again, the author doesn't, necessarily, question the patriotism of the Left.
What it comes down to is what does "support the troops mean."
If it means simply hoping that they all come back home alive and whole, than without doubt the Left supports the troops.
If it means believing that their sacrifices are of value, that their work is just, and hoping that they succeed, then the Left does not support the troops.
Without a doubt the Left feels politcally compelled to toss in "support the troops" at every opportunity. Yes they love the troops as fellow Americans, but they do not hope that they will succeed in their missions.
While we debate back and forth on this issue, it is unquestionable that the troops view "support" as something much more than hoping they make it home alive.
Finn wrote:But now we find a Lefty (FD) who just can't resist arguing that Righties don't care whether or not American men and women die in Iraq.
Bush and Cheney care that soldiers are dying in Iraq, but not for the right reason. They care because it makes their ill-conceived and illegal campaign look bad. But if anyone really believes that either one of those evil bastards would shed a tear for a fallen soldier because of the waste of the young one's life and the tremendous anquish felt by the soldier's family, then you're sadly mistaken.
Those evil bastards could care less about that.
"If it means believing that their sacrifices are of value, that their work is just, and hoping that they succeed, then the Left does not support the troops."
Is it your contention that one ought to believe this even if every ounce of rationality and political analysis and understanding that one has says that it is not so?
If one even could.
To however it was that remarked "Bingo" I'm glad that person verified my take on Prager's piece. But it is sad that the same person doesn't see any subtle argument here, but rather a condemnation of an amorphous group known as "the left". You might be shocked at my opinion and support of National Security. You might also be served by investigating situations a little more closely before you paint with such a broad stroke. As a nation we make a mistake when we try to pinpoint what can divide us instead of what can unite us. But what the hay, if the entire radical Muslim extremist threat isn't enough for you, by all means, attack other Americans.
Sorry, I meant Whoever not however.
Lash wrote:[
If that is true, propping one's internet argument up on the body and service of others is gross.
Care to explain that comment genius? Or do you have any idea what you are talking about?
