Coronavirus

Federal official raises questions about vaccine timeline

"I don't know any scientist involved in this effort who thinks we will be getting shots into
arms any time before Election Day," said the official, who is familiar with Operation Warp
Speed, the federal government's effort to develop coronavirus vaccines...

1 Reply

@Region Philbis,

Nine leading Western pharmaceutical companies want to assure careful corona vaccine development according to scientific standards despite the immense time pressure.
In an unusual move, competitors AstraZeneca, GlaxoSmithKline, Johnson & Johnson, Merck & Co, Moderna, Novavax, Sanofi, the Mainz-based company Biontech and its US partner Pfizer joined forces and pledged in a statement on Tuesday that safety and efficacy would be the top priority in the development of a corona vaccine.

The statement comes a week after the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s preliminary plans for vaccine distribution surfaced. Those documents asked local and state governments to start drawing up their initial plans for vaccine distribution, and they mentioned that “limited COVID -19 vaccine doses may be available by early November 2020” or by late October 2020.
Experts have since said that they consider that timeline “extremely unlikely” and have emphasized the importance of preparing a complex distribution system in advance.

Vaccine makers promise safety amid shaky public confidence in Covid developments

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A review of what we got right and wrong so far on Covid19.

https://slate.com/technology/2020/09/coronavirus-research-so-far.html

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@engineer,

From your link:
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

July 1, 2020 Update: A summary of the FDA review of safety issues with the use of hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine to treat hospitalized patients with COVID-19 is now available. This includes reports of serious heart rhythm problems and other safety issues, including blood and lymph system disorders, kidney injuries, and liver problems and failure.
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Do you contend that the trials upon which Fauci based his opinion were done on folks during the early stages of covid? And if they were not conducted during the early stages, why not?

You condemned an Association of doctors who mentioned the successful use of the hydroxychloroquine cocktail in the early stages of the virus. So I asked you whether or not you were claiming that no doctors outside of that Association have reported success in treating covid with the hydroxychloroquine cocktail. If that's what you're implying, why don't you say so?

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@Glennn,

Because that is not how the trial was set up by the researchers. Any researchers who want to set up a trial differently can. Strange how all these people who say the trial should have been done differently don't do any trials themselves.

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@engineer,

The fact is that doctors were using it to good effect.

Strange how Fauci's determination that it's of no use is based on its use on folks who were already so sick that they had to be hospitalized. The doctors who had been using it successfully could have told Fauci that the key to success is to use it during the early onset of the virus. That's what that open letter was about.

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@Glennn,

Great, then a controlled study should show that. They should do one. Wonder why they haven't. Why would you write an open letter instead of doing a study that would have been complete months ago?

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@engineer,

So, what you're saying is that using something that is working to great effect during a pandemic must be halted because of a lack of trials. Is that how it works?

Quote:

They should do one. Wonder why they haven't. Why would you write an open letter instead of doing a study that would have been complete months ago?

You condemned an Association of doctors who mentioned the successful use of the hydroxychloroquine cocktail in the early stages of the virus. So I asked you whether or not you were claiming that no doctors outside of that Association have reported success in treating covid with the hydroxychloroquine cocktail. If that's what you're implying, why don't you say so? At this point, you need to just say so.

Anyway, you're ignoring the real question here. Why would Fauci condemn the use of the hydroxychloroquine cocktail without testing it on patients who are in the early stage of the illness? You're trying to turn Fauci's failure into the failure of some doctors who have used the cocktail successfully. But this is an indictment of Fauci's failure to test it on folks during the early stage.

And those doctors have addressed his failure here:

Please explain how multiple observational studies arrive at the same outcomes using the same formulation of hydroxychloroquine + azithromycin + zinc given in the same time frame for the same study population (high risk patients) is not evidence that the cocktail works?

In fact, how is it not significant evidence, during a pandemic, for hundreds of non-academic private practice physicians to achieve the same outcomes with the early use of the HCQ cocktail?

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https://media.timesfreepress.com/img/photos/2020/09/10/200911presidentialalert2079833005.jpg

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@Glennn,

You keep saying some doctors report anecdotal results, no controls, no numbers, they just say they've had success. Studies were done to verify those statements and they show no results. Oh you say, but what if you do the studies differently? And what if the patients also take a vitamin? Seems pretty silly but if you think that is important, go for it. Having doctors make recommendations based on the actual studies seems fine to me, but if you want to go to one of these doctors and get yourself some malaria medicine and zinc, go for it. As I've pointed out already, it's perfectly legal for them to prescribe it to you. No one is stopping you.

1 Reply

@engineer,

Quote:

they just say they've had success.

See, that's the thing. You're willing to say that the doctors who claim that they've used the cocktail with good success are mistaken. If not that, then what are you saying about them?

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Oh you say, but what if you do the studies differently? And what if the patients also take a vitamin?

I've never mentioned vitamins. Why are you mentioning them?

I'm not saying that the studies should have been done differently. The doctors who used the cocktail according to a certain protocol wonder why Fauci has condemned its use based on trials that involved only hospitalized patients.

Quote:

Having doctors make recommendations based on the actual studies seems fine to me

Oh good! We're finally hitting pay dirt. Where are those studies that show that the hydroxychloroquine cocktail is ineffective when used at the onset of symptoms?

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As I've pointed out already, it's perfectly legal for them to prescribe it to you.

Yeah, about that:

PHOENIX — A Tucson-based national organization of doctors has sued the federal Department of Health and Human Services for putting roadblocks in the path of physicians who want to prescribe hydroxychloroquine to prevent COVID-19.

The lawsuit, filed in Michigan, asks a federal judge to overturn an order by the Food and Drug Administration, part of HHS, which says the drug can be obtained from the Strategic National Stockpile only when a patient has the virus and is hospitalized.

Dr. Jane Orient, executive director of the Association of Physicians and Surgeons, told Capitol Media Services the agency is illegally restricting the rights of doctors to choose what is best for the patients.

The action comes after Gov. Doug Ducey in April imposed his own restrictions on the use of hydroxychloroquine, forbidding Arizona doctors from prescribing the drug for prophylactic purposes absent a peer-reviewed medical study showing it is effective. To date, there has not been one.

https://tucson.com/news/local/tucson-based-doctors-group-sues-feds-over-use-of-hydroxychloroquine/article_963f9a9c-f257-5c72-95a3-4a40ca2a0a5f.html#:~:text=The%20action%20comes%20after%20Gov.%20Doug%20Ducey%20in,effective.%20To%20date%2C%20there%20has%20not%20been%20one.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________

You should at least look into things like that before declaring that something is so. It gives the impression that you will make things up if it's expedient to your argument.

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@Glennn,

Glennn wrote:

See, that's the thing. You're willing to say that the doctors who claim that they've used the cocktail with good success are mistaken.

No, I am saying they are reporting anecdotes without sufficient controls. As someone who designs experiments and analyzes data all the time, I am very familiar with people who see what that want in uncontrolled experiments.

Quote:

I've never mentioned vitamins. Why are you mentioning them?

You have repeatedly mentioned taking zinc as part of this treatment.

Glennn wrote:

I'm not saying that the studies should have been done differently. The doctors who used the cocktail according to a certain protocol wonder why Fauci has condemned its use based on trials that involved only hospitalized patients.

Meaning you think the studies should have been done differently.

Quote:

Where are those studies that show that the hydroxychloroquine cocktail is ineffective when used at the onset of symptoms?

Doctors have done studies based on good medical practice and found no to negative results. Sorry that the patients were not the ones you wanted to test. Maybe you should fund a study instead of complaining. Maybe those doctors who are writing "open letters" should do so.

Quote:

PHOENIX — A Tucson-based national organization of doctors has sued the federal Department of Health and Human Services for putting roadblocks in the path of physicians who want to prescribe hydroxychloroquine to prevent COVID-19.
...
Dr. Jane Orient, executive director of the Association of Physicians and Surgeons, told Capitol Media Services the agency is illegally restricting the rights of doctors to choose what is best for the patients.

Ah, the far right extreme organization that puts ideology ahead of science and patient health again. Doctors want to get free medicine from the national stockpile for a disproven treatment. Oh so sorry.

Even the FDA which reports directly to the President who is a big fan of questionable medicine doesn't support this. That should be a clue for you.

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@engineer,

glenn has been trying since day one to disabuse the use of HCQ as "sound science". Like many other "meds" in the past, several had severe negative effects. (Use of Hg in treating venereal diseases). Only through careful research was the methodology able to attain a medical doxy. If we all recall (maintaining a non political objective view), the original research was compiled in several EU labs at doses almost 10X at what present HCQ is being researched. Its being used as a palliative , not a cure and the mineral Zn has only been reported in widespread med research since mid JULY.
The original HCQ dosage was determined based on what past malarial doses were made at (and were increased by 5). The discovery that the cardiac dysrhythmia (ventrical not atrial) IS AN OFTEN FATAL OUTCOME. SO, in listening to what the Hippocratic oath says, and I paraphrase, "First off lets not make it any worse than it is...",

The research was held ( APPARENTLY NOT TERMINATED) because there were questionble relationships of positivity that pointed to possible beneficial use of the drug as a derivative of quinones (in combination with several associated drugs and vitamins and minerals).
LOW dose HCQ is a med of interest, High dose is a poison we know that now. (Remember what the mother of forensic medicine said"DOSAGE DETERMINES THE POISON" (on th table we call salt a flavor enhancer , in the lab we call it NaCl and is clerly deadly at high dosage).

Id been a anti HCQer since all the data pointed to the dysrhythmia "feture" it gave patients. After that brouhahaha, (In hich politics on both sides were to blme), objective resaerh found it as good as remedesevier, and with Zn to actually cap the endosomes, HCQ hs finally answered the question that was originally never addressed properly in that
"Why arent the quinine derivatives effective on the novel coronavirus as with othr coronavirii.??"

Engineer is correct though, none of the research has, as of yet been done in prescribed scientifically controlled environments on a large population and controlled variables.

WE DO KNOW ONE THING THOUGH, as cases are now rising in severl areas of the world, lethality seems to be dropping among adults,(dont know bout kiddies) is thisa mutation?, is the lethal form already killed itself out by eliminating itself statistically, is the antigen dosage controlled by our precautions, or is it something else??.

1 Reply

@engineer,

Quote:

No, I am saying they are reporting anecdotes without sufficient controls. As someone who designs experiments and analyzes data all the time, I am very familiar with people who see what that want in uncontrolled experiments.

You're trying to cast doubt on all of the doctors who have successfully used the hydroxychloroquine cocktail. And why are you calling their treatment of covid patients an experiment. They weren't experimenting. They were treating covid patients. However, you are correct in that doctors using the cocktail saw what they wanted to see. They saw covid patients recovering after the hydroxychloroquine cocktail. But according to you, any doctor who vouches for the effectiveness of the the cocktail only thought that they saw their patients recover. Sure . . .

Quote:

You have repeatedly mentioned taking zinc as part of this treatment.

Yeah, zinc. You seem to be ignorant of the role that zinc plays in the cocktail. Tell me your version of what function it serves, and we'll see it jives with reality.

Quote:

Meaning you think the studies should have been done differently.

No. You're not listening. When doctors from different states bitched about their governors prohibiting them from using the hydroxychloroquine cocktail on covid patients, that wasn't about how a study should be done. It was about governors restricting its use to people who are already so sick that they require hospitalization. So, what I want to know is why Fauci is playing ignorant when it comes to the successful protocol used by doctors around the country. Instead of duplicating their protocol to find out for himself whether or not it works, he decided to limit its trial to a last-ditch-effort to keep a dying patient alive. He admits that it does nothing for hospitalized covid patients. One has to wonder why he would ignore reports from physicians reporting success with patients in the early stage of the virus.

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Doctors have done studies based on good medical practice and found no to negative results.

Sure. But like I said before, they did not study the effects of the cocktail on people in the early stages of the virus. They used it on people who were on their death-bed. And now, in order to preserve your faith in authority, you're defending a man who condemned a drug because he refuses to look at its use in any situation other than an end of life emergency.

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Doctors want to get free medicine from the national stockpile for a disproven treatment.

Yes, its effectiveness for anyone on their death-bed has been disproven. But the fact is that, when given early on in accordance with the protocol reported by doctors around the country, it works good.

Quote:

Ah, the far right extreme organization that puts ideology ahead of science and patient health again.

You're doing it again. According to you, any doctor who successfully treats a covid patient with the early use of the hydroxychloroquine cocktail is a liar or so psychologically off that they don't know that their covid patients died on them.

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Even the FDA which reports directly to the President who is a big fan of questionable medicine doesn't support this. That should be a clue for you.

Oh good. This is another opportunity for you to provide something to support your claim that the cocktail doesn't help anyone early on. Post the study done by the FDA which shows that the hydroxychloroquine cocktail does nothing for covid patients at the onset of symptoms. And when you are unable to locate such a thing, consider your faith in something that doesn't even exist.

2 Replies

@farmerman,

Quote:

glenn has been trying since day one to disabuse the use of HCQ as "sound science".

Are you accusing all of the doctors who used the cocktail to good effect of lying, or are you saying that their perception of the outcome of the treatment they used on covid patients early on is so tainted by ideology that they don't know when they've lost a patient.

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A coronavirus-infected American who stayed in the U.S. military’s hotel in the Bavarian resort town of Garmisch-Partenkirschen has sparked a wave of cases.
The 26-year-old woman, who had virus symptoms, was tested positive and ordered to quarantine, but visited afterwards multiple bars on last weekend and on Tuesday, infected dozens people and prompted Garmisch yesterday to shut down nightlife establishments, pubs and restaurants.
On the premises of the US forces where she had been staying, about 30 people have tested positive so far.

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@Glennn,

Glennn wrote:

They saw covid patients recovering after the hydroxychloroquine cocktail. But according to you, any doctor who vouches for the effectiveness of the the cocktail only thought that they saw their patients recover. Sure . . .

Most patients recover from Covid with no medicine what so ever. The question is do more recover when given the treatment as opposed to the control group. Again, you show no data. What are the side effects? Oh, no data again. Doctors say "hey we gave some stuff to patients and they got better so clearly this stuff must work!" Yep, the rooster crows in the morning and the sun rises, clearly the roster causes the sun to come up.

Quote:

Yeah, zinc. You seem to be ignorant of the role that zinc plays in the cocktail. Tell me your version of what function it serves, and we'll see it jives with reality.

LOL, that is your role. You are making the assertion that a vitamin supplement is an integral part of this treatment. You need to explain the mechanism that explains that. You know, the mechanism. Exactly what is the means by which Zinc changes the way the medicines interact with the body. You know, science.

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No. You're not listening.

Well, one of us isn't.

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Post the study done by the FDA which shows that the hydroxychloroquine cocktail does nothing for covid patients at the onset of symptoms. And when you are unable to locate such a thing, consider your faith in something that doesn't even exist.

LOL! You keep saying the burden of disproof in on me. The way it works is the burden of proof is on you and the doctors you favor. If you say putting a bullet into a patient's leg is a cure for Covid19, it's not up to me to show that shooting patients is not a valid treatment, it is up to you to prove it is. I don't have to show you a study proving a negative, you have to show me a study (not anecdotes) proving the positive. You have repeatedly failed to do that. It's too bad your radical "doctor" group is more interested in lawsuits than medical research. The study could have been completed by now. Where is that report? Consider your faith in something that doesn't even exist.

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@engineer,

Quote:

The study could have been completed by now. Where is that report? Consider your faith in something that doesn't even exist.

You're still pushing the idea that, even though doctors have successfully treated covid in the early stages with the cocktail, it's best to condemn it until proper trials are done. When something works during a plague, is it the normal to discontinue its use until you know why it works?

Quote:

LOL, that is your role. You are making the assertion that a vitamin supplement is an integral part of this treatment. You need to explain the mechanism that explains that. You know, the mechanism. Exactly what is the means by which Zinc changes the way the medicines interact with the body. You know, science.

I assume this is your way of telling me that you don't know why zinc is an integral part of the treatment protocol. By the way, zinc is a mineral, not a vitamin.

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Yep, the rooster crows in the morning and the sun rises, clearly the roster causes the sun to come up.

You need to work on your analogies. That was piss-poor.

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I don't have to show you a study proving a negative,

You do if you're confronted with the fact that lots of doctors were successfully treating the patient. If you want to prove them wrong, you're going to have to produce a study that supports your condemnation of a protocol that works. But of course you're going to continue believing that those doctors' ideology caused them to see success where there was none.

So, the question to you is: Why is this successful protocol that's used by many doctors not tested on high-risk patients BEFORE they are to the point of hospitalization?

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It's too bad your radical "doctor" group is more interested in lawsuits than medical research.

I think this would be a good time for you to confirm your suspicion that outside to that Association, no doctors are claiming success with the HCQ cocktail.

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the burden of proof is on you and the doctors you favor.

Doctors were treating covid patients with the hydroxychloroquine cocktail early on. Then they were told that they can only use it after the patient has been hospitalized. Those doing the prohibiting need to explain why they didn't try it on those high-risk patients BEFORE the point of hospitalization. And since you are here answering for them, go ahead and explain.

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@Glennn,

Quote:

I assume this is your way of telling me that you don't know why zinc is an integral part of the treatment protocol. By the way, zinc is a mineral, not a vitamin.

No, it is my way of telling you that you don't know why zinc is an integral part of the treatment protocol, but you keep pushing it anyway.

Quote:

You need to work on your analogies. That was piss-poor.

And yet you have no answer for it.

Quote:

You do if you're confronted with the fact that lots of doctors were successfully treating the patient.

Yet I'm not confronted with that "fact". A controlled study would do that which is why I'm asking you for it. At this point, all I have is you saying that "lots of doctors" "successfully" treated Covid. How many is "lots"? What is the definition of "successful"? Without a control group, you can't define the latter. Does that mean that instead of 5% of patients progressing to the point where they needed hospitalization, only 2% did? That's why you need a control.

I work with very accomplished PhD's trying to solve very complicated problems. They have lots of ideas and I help them design experiments to show whether their strongly held ideas are really in the right direction or whether it is more coincidence. It's clear at this point you aren't going to get it, but I'll summarize for you.

It is the responsibility of someone proposing a treatment to say why it works (explain the science) and to conduct the experiment to prove (or more often disprove) the treatment. That some doctors feel this treatment has merit was sufficient to generate trials. Those trials have not shown a positive result and in some cases have shown some risk. If those doctors have used that information to modify their hypothesis, great, but they need to test the modified hypothesis. It is not someone's job to do that for them. It's not enough to yell it's a pandemic, we just need to try anything when you might be causing harm or preventing other, more beneficial treatments. It's not a slam on the doctors proposing it, it's just a statement of their responsibility. Smart people get used to being right, often assume they are right. I work with really smart people who are wrong more often than not because they are trying to solve really hard problems. They know better than to yell that they are right because of their degree or their experience or their position. They want to prove they are right with the science. Same thing here.

You keep yelling about Fauci. All you have to do is show him the evidence. Not anecdotes, just the evidence. It's a fair ask. It doesn't matter if a fringe group is suing, it doesn't matter if a few doctors have seen patients get better (which happens most of the time anyway), just generate the evidence.

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@Glennn,

Quote:

You're trying to cast doubt on all of the doctors who have successfully used the hydroxychloroquine cocktail.

I doubt every one of your nameless Doctors working on unknown patients in unidentified locations with an unspecified nonstandard treatment regime.

Even the Brazilians who were suckered into buying hydroxychloroquine from Trump have written it off as so much bunkum.

If it worked the medical industry would be all over it making money hand over fist.

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