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That Dick!

 
 
chiczaira
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jun, 2005 05:18 pm
"Don't tread on me" Moral High Ground?

What a laugh!!!!!

We lost our "moral high ground "when it was found that our President was being Lewinskied by an intern young enough to be his daughter.

Any idiot who attempts to make a moral equivalency between The Nazis, The Soviet Gulags, Pol Pot and Gitmo is either incredibly stupid or vicious and totally overinvested in passionate hatred for the Bush Administration. It is no secret that the Democrats like Durbin have signed on to the nuttiest slurs of the lunatic fringe.

What did Durbin say?

quote

"Not only was the temperature unbearably hot, but extremely loud rap music was being played in the room"

What a crock!

What was the body count in Gitmo?

Zero. Compare this with Nazi, Soviet and Pol Pot counts.

Only partisan haters like Durbin make such goofy statements.

A few more Durbins and Deans and the Republicans will win in a walk in 2006 and 2008.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jun, 2005 05:59 pm
Somebody's poll numbers must have sunk as low as his decency:

Sen. Durbin Apologizes for Gitmo Remarks By GLEN JOHNSON, Associated Press Writer
46 minutes ago


WASHINGTON - Under fire from Republicans and some fellow Democrats, Sen. Dick Durbin apologized Tuesday for comparing American interrogators at the Guantanamo Bay prison camp to Nazis and other historically infamous figures.
"Some may believe that my remarks crossed the line," the Illinois Democrat said. "To them I extend my heartfelt apologies."

His voice quaking and tears welling in his eyes, the No. 2 Democrat in the Senate also apologized to any soldiers who felt insulted by his remarks.

"They're the best. I never, ever intended any disrespect for them," he said.

(Then who the hell was he talking about? LIAR!)

During his apology, which Durbin delivered while looking directly into a TV camera broadcasting the proceedings, the senator said: "I made reference to Nazis, to Soviets, and other repressive regimes. Mr. President, I've come to understand that's a very poor choice of words."

He also reached out directly to Holocaust survivors, adding: "I'm sorry if anything that I said caused any offense or pain to those who have such bitter memories of the Holocaust, the greatest moral tragedy of our time. Nothing, nothing should ever be said to demean or diminish that moral tragedy."

(Damn straight)

Immediately after the apology, Sen. John McCain (news, bio, voting record), an Arizona Republican and former prisoner of war, spoke in Durbin's defense. "All of us, I believe, who have had the opportunity to serve in public life from time to time have said things that we deeply regret. I know that I have. I would like to say that the senator from Illinois, he did the right thing, the courageous thing, and I believe we can put this issue behind us."

___

Not.
0 Replies
 
chiczaira
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jun, 2005 06:19 pm
Lash- I wonder what McCain would have said if Durbin had made a parallel between Gitmo and the Vietnamese prison camps in which McCain languished? It is clear that McCain is setting himself up to run in 2008. Only a mealy mouth or a political relativist would react as McCain did.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jun, 2005 06:23 pm
I think McCain did respond as though the comparison included his suffering. However, I think McCain has got his eyes on a higher office.

I think he's running to unseat God. I've never watched anyone deify himself---should I say Himself--before....
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jun, 2005 07:21 pm
chiczaira wrote:
"Don't tread on me" Moral High Ground?

What a laugh!!!!!

We lost our "moral high ground "when it was found that our President was being Lewinskied by an intern young enough to be his daughter.


hey folks, we found another one with a crush on clinton.

is that really all you got ?
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jun, 2005 07:23 pm
It may seem reasonable to urge that we focus on the heart of Durbin's comments rather that the rhetorical excesses.

After all, the description of what was done to the individual at Gitmo is pretty rough and I can appreciate that to some folks there is never a reason for such rough treatment.

However, we are not discussing the comments of an A2K poster, we are discussing the comments of the 2nd most powerful Democrat in the US Senate, and a man who has given countless speeches and made countless remarks. Clearly he is a skilled politician and if he didn't appreciate the power of words, he would not be where he is today.

There were a thousand ways to criticize the extent of the treatment of this prisoner without evoking Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot.

It is absolutely clear that Durbin was attempting to draw a connection between the current Adminstration and Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot.

Did Durbin stop and think that by reference, he was accusing American soldiers of behaving like the sadistic thugs of Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot? Probably not, but it's enough that he did not stop and think of the impact of his statement.

And if Durbin was as truly horrified by the case of this prisoner as he suggests than why would he not be criticizing the American soldiers who participated in the treatment?

Instead Durbin issues an ass covering statement that he is not blaming any of America's proud men and women who serve yada yada yada. But why not? Does Durbin think that the actual perpetrators of this horrific abuse are excused because they were only following orders?

Durbin is a partisan attack whelp who is attempting to fuel his ambitions by playing the Leftist base of the Democratic party. If you don't think Durbin has a run for the presidency in mind, please let me tell you about the perpetual motion machine I've designed and which I can manufacture if you will only invest $50,000 in my efforts.

Assuming the account of this prisoner's treatment is accurate, it is something of which we should all be aware. Not so that we can howl at the moon and call for the impeachment of the President, but so that we can engage in a public debate on a very important issue.

Should there be a limit to the rough treatment of our enemies, if it can be shown that such treatment has the real possibility of saving lives?

Is there any reason to believe that such treatment can save lives?

Is adhering to absolute principles of human rights more important that protecting our country and preserving American lives?

These are not easy questions to answer, and throwing around politically motivated references to Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot not only does nothing to help the dialogue, it inhibits it by polarization.

What is most offensive to me is the notion (advanced by Durbin himself, among others) that he is somehow a victim here. What utter cynical crap!

Paraphrasing Durbin: "And I will continue to criticize the Administration when I see fit..." merely enforces the conclusion that he was attempting to draw a connection between Bush and Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot.

As for these comparisons:

They are utterly without merit and if not partisan in nature, than the product of an absolute idiot.

Either way we don't need a US Senator who is such a blithering idiot or who would impugn our nation honor for partisan reasons. He is a disgrace.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jun, 2005 07:25 pm
hmmm... now john mccain is no good either, huh ? Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jun, 2005 08:38 pm
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
hmmm... now john mccain is no good either, huh ? Rolling Eyes


Meaning what?

Did McCain compare Gitmo to the concentration camps of Hitler, the gulag of Stalin and the killing fields of Pol Pot?

If he did (and I seriously doubt that he did) than, yes he is no good.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jun, 2005 09:21 pm
Weekly Standard

I would appreciate a reasonable explanation (which is to say not a Liberal rant) as to why Durbin's comments do not deserve the same consequences as Lott's.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jun, 2005 09:24 pm
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
hmmm... now john mccain is no good either, huh ? Rolling Eyes


Meaning what?

Did McCain compare Gitmo to the concentration camps of Hitler, the gulag of Stalin and the killing fields of Pol Pot?

If he did (and I seriously doubt that he did) than, yes he is no good.



not really sure what in particular he did say that's got 'em all riled up. i have heard him say something to the effect that we need to be straight up on how we deal with prisoners.

having spent more time than he had to in hanoi, rather than be used as a pr tool for the cong, i guess he knows a little bit about detainment and torture.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jun, 2005 09:31 pm
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
hmmm... now john mccain is no good either, huh ? Rolling Eyes


Meaning what?

Did McCain compare Gitmo to the concentration camps of Hitler, the gulag of Stalin and the killing fields of Pol Pot?

If he did (and I seriously doubt that he did) than, yes he is no good.



not really sure what in particular he did say that's got 'em all riled up. i have heard him say something to the effect that we need to be straight up on how we deal with prisoners.

having spent more time than he had to in hanoi, rather than be used as a pr tool for the cong, i guess he knows a little bit about detainment and torture.


We do need to be straight on how we deal with prisoners. This doesn't make McCain "no good."

Nor does his attempt to present himself as a moderate healer in advance of his presidential ambitions.

That he did not, properly, come down on Durbin is something I will weigh when considering whether or not to vote for McCain in a primary or the general election.

They are all politicians or they are not re-elected.
0 Replies
 
chiczaira
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jun, 2005 09:52 pm
A crush on Clinton. IS that all you really got?

No, that's not all I really got. The one who really got it is rhe man who wrote the definitive book on Clinton and his essential sleazyness.

Richard A. Posner, in case you are unaware, is the chief judge of the US court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit and is considered to be one of the most intelligent and influential jurists in the USA.

Posner states: "For those who think that authority depends on mystery, the shattering of the presidential mystique has been a disaster for which Clinton ought of rights to have paid with his job"

Dont tread on me talks about "Moral High Ground" after a president of the USA uses his girl friend's pudenda as a humidor in the Oval Office?

Dont tread on me talks about "Moral High Ground" after Jimmy Carter, upon being informed of Clinton's last minute pardons. especially the pardon Marc Rich. thinks the qid pro quo was "disgraceful">

Dont rread on me talks about the" moral high ground" after Clinton had to pay $80,000 to Judge Wright for misbehavior in her courtroom.

Dont tread on me talks about the "moral high ground "after Clinton, on the last day of his tenure makes a statement for the Independent Counsel Robert Ray which reads;" I have accepted a five year suspension of my law license, agreed to pay a $25,000 fine to cover counsel fees and acknowledged a violation of one of the Arkansas model rules of professional conduct because of my testimony in my Paula Jones case deposition"

WHAT MORAL HIGH GROUND?? After Clinton there is no moral high ground left.
0 Replies
 
chiczaira
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jun, 2005 09:58 pm
It is clear in the Midwest that Daley was the one who pushed Durbin over the edge. Daley may not be the most eloquent of mayors or even the most above board but he will not allow a scumbag like Durbin to make idiotic comments about our military.

I wonder if Dont Tread on Me has ever scrutinized the "moral high ground" belonging to the fanatic dirtbags who decapitate innocent men and women who are not combatants and display thier heads on Arab TV.

I am sure that Dont Tread on Me would say that we cannot become like our enemies.

My brother, who was in Iraq, and has returned, Thank God, says that idiots who talk about the "moral high ground" never rode in trucks that came close to hidden bombs planted by Muslim cowards.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 01:34 am
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
hmmm... now john mccain is no good either, huh ? Rolling Eyes


Meaning what?

Did McCain compare Gitmo to the concentration camps of Hitler, the gulag of Stalin and the killing fields of Pol Pot?

If he did (and I seriously doubt that he did) than, yes he is no good.



not really sure what in particular he did say that's got 'em all riled up. i have heard him say something to the effect that we need to be straight up on how we deal with prisoners.

having spent more time than he had to in hanoi, rather than be used as a pr tool for the cong, i guess he knows a little bit about detainment and torture.


We do need to be straight on how we deal with prisoners. This doesn't make McCain "no good."

Nor does his attempt to present himself as a moderate healer in advance of his presidential ambitions.

That he did not, properly, come down on Durbin is something I will weigh when considering whether or not to vote for McCain in a primary or the general election.

They are all politicians or they are not re-elected.


no, ya got me wrong there, your mojoness ( Laughing ). i like mccain. quite a bit actually. he's one of the few republicans that could possibly lure my vote back to the gop. note i say possibly. the current crop doesn't have much in common with those i voted for in the past. mccain ? sorta does...

could be that jack mac has been round that corner and doesn't like the idea that our country may be acting badly in regards to mistreatment.

we're supposed to be the good guys, remember ?

not to mention every expert asserts that torture does not reap good information. mccain being one with firsthand experience.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 01:39 am
chiczaira wrote:
A crush on Clinton. IS that all you really got?

No, that's not all I really got. The one who really got it is rhe man who wrote the definitive book on Clinton and his essential sleazyness....bla, bla, bla...

WHAT MORAL HIGH GROUND?? After Clinton there is no moral high ground left.


speak for yourself.

if you hate america so much, then leave.
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 06:06 am
rayban1 wrote:
Goodfielder and Dlowan

You both had pertinent and well founded comments deserving of attention but the fact remains you are both very critical of our "Ham fisted" approach to the problem. Perhaps if both of you would "try" to put yourselves in the position of the guys involved, perhaps you could "monday morning quarterback" and tell us what you would have done and when you would have done it. It should be easy now that we know the consequences.

I think we deserve serious answers from both of you.

I am particularly interested in the way you would have dealt with the prisoners and what legal status you would have accorded them.

1. Would you have declared them POWs, entitled to all the privileges of POWs even though they did not wear uniforms.

2. Where would you have detained them and in what kind of facility?

3. Would you have questioned them?

4. If they were declared POWs, how long would you hold them?

5. What kind of guards would you use or would you just let them go?

These are fair questions and deserve serious answers since you seem to be the keepers of all moral values perhaps you will enlighten us callous, ham fisted mortals.

Of course I expect you to beg off on grounds that it is beyond the boundaries of this thread..........if that is the case, perhaps Lash would consent to expanding those boundaries?


The only prisoners would have been those who were identified as conspirators in the atrocities. They would have been extradited from whatever country there were in, taken straight back to the US and put on trial for murder and as many other indictments as possible. Forget about throwing the book at them it would have been a case of chucking the entire Library of Congress at them.

Thus the above questions don't come into the equation.
0 Replies
 
thethinkfactory
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 07:07 am
Rayban - your forgetting another option. We could charge them with terrorist acts against America and try them in our courts.

This is not binary - POW or let them go. Also, if you think a uniform is what seperates an enemy combatant from an unlawful combatant you should see what our CIA and special forces wear to work. It aint an American Uniform with big US flags on it.


TTF
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 08:11 am
Lash wrote:
Immediately after the apology, Sen. John McCain (news, bio, voting record), an Arizona Republican and former prisoner of war, spoke in Durbin's defense. "All of us, I believe, who have had the opportunity to serve in public life from time to time have said things that we deeply regret. I know that I have. I would like to say that the senator from Illinois, he did the right thing, the courageous thing, and I believe we can put this issue behind us."

___

Not.

Why not?
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 08:13 am
chiczaira wrote:
Richard A. Posner, in case you are unaware, is the chief judge of the US court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit...

No, he isn't.
0 Replies
 
rayban1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 09:14 am
Dlowan
As I suspected you threw a load of platitudinous rhetoric at the wall, hoping I would swallow some of it...........not a chance. Below you will find the legal discourse with justification for the President's decision to proceed on the path that he is following by using the term "enemy combatant" for those captured or detained in our war against the Islamist Fascists who want to take us all back to the sixth century.

This is the source and below is an excerpt which puts it all into perspective:
http://www.fed-soc.org/Laws%20of%20war/enemycomb.pdf

< It is well settled, in both international and U.S. domestic law, that individuals captured in war may be detained during the conflict and they are not entitled to all of the elaborate due process rights guaranteed to criminal defendants. (These include the right to retain and consult with counsel) The enemy combatants detained in the war against terror, like other prisoners taken in war before them, have not been subjected to a criminal justice process. Their confinement is not for purposes of punishment or deterrence. Rather it is to ensure that they do not return to the fight against the United States. If criminal charges are actually brought against any of the detainees, they will be entitled to counsel, and all of the process that is due, at that time.>

This then is the basis for the decision and I would have chosen the same course of action even knowing that my critics in the press would probably try to turn it into a debate with never ending intellectual ramifications which is exactly what you and all the sob sisters on this forum want to do.

The requirement to gain information from those captured to assist the president in his responsiblity to protect the American people plus the absolute neccesity to prevent any of those captured from returning to combat were ample justification for this decision and this was confirmed by the Presidents legal advisors as is evident in the source document.

Your assertion that the US military should be taking action to punish those guilty of abuse of the established guidelines is a valid point but you fail to recognize that they (the US military) are doing exactly that by conducting investigations in every reported abuse..........You and the world wide media just don't accept the evidence so I recommend you take off your blinders.

Furthermore, your platitudes regarding healthy debate are absolutely meaningless this far into the game.........debate causes divisiveness which is exactly what the our enemies are hoping for as in the case of the lost war against the communists in North Vietnam. Walter Cronkite sealed the loss in his Feb 1968 broadcast (after a few days in Vietnam) in which he concluded that the US was "Mired in Stalemate" and that the war was "unwinable". I hope never again to see the power that he wielded during that evening broadcast. Endless debates by intellectuals have never yielded anything but divisiveness but that is the price we pay for living in freedom and that is the foundation for my rage that you commented about. The destructiveness of endless "debate" creates a sense of frustration which results in a feeling of rage against those who are so blinded by an ideology that says "ALL WAR IS BAD" and if only we stick our heads in the sand and debate it, it will just go away.

If you want to help the enemy.........then continue on with your drivel about debate and endless misguided criticism of our military which you swallow from the New York Times or any other overly critical news source such as Al Jazeera.
0 Replies
 
 

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