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The Democrats Gloat Thread

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Aug, 2006 11:03 am
george, We may have survived thus far, but the world is now on fire. Or, haven't you noticed? Comparing Bush to past presidents second term is like comparing apples and oranges.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Aug, 2006 11:19 am
Example of "conservatism" in the US:
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Aug, 2006 11:40 am
Wow -- that means it's only weeks until Republicans start french-kissing their partners again.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Aug, 2006 12:13 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
george, We may have survived thus far, but the world is now on fire. Or, haven't you noticed? Comparing Bush to past presidents second term is like comparing apples and oranges.


I think that if you review the histories of Roosevelt's third term and the second terms of Presidents Truman, Johnson, Nixon, Reagan, and Clinton you will see that the world was on fire then as well.

On second thought Reagan's second term was different. The world was basking in the fall of the Soviet Empire, and, at least in the West, the prosperity brought about by Reagan and Thatcher's reforms of their respective economies. The only negative was the internal catfight promoted by Democrats, who couldn't forgive Reagan for his many successes, over such non-issues as the very clever sale (at exhorbatant prices) of useless missiles to Iran and our aid to the Contras in Nicaragua.

cicerone imposter wrote:
... Harassing the French is probably not the wisest course now that America may need their help negotiating a ceasefire in Lebanon.


Harassing the French is a good idea under almost any circumstances. Until there are some profound changes in French political life, their "help" isn't worth much and their affections an illusion.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Aug, 2006 12:27 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
blatham wrote:
I confess I am preparing myself to get significantly depressed at what is about to unveil. There really is a lot at stake...powerful people could quite possibly go to jail, and lots of them. Huge, unimaginable amounts of money are swinging about related to militarism in the ME. Serious ideologies are at risk of losing their prestige and places of power.


Sounds like politics as usual to me. We are approaching the Congressional elections that will mark the start of the last Congress (2 year period) of Bush's second term. Consider the coresponding periods of the last terms of Clinton, Reagan, Nixon, Johnson, Truman, and Roosevelt's third term. All more or less the same. Somehow we survived.


There's a familiar ring to that passage, george. Did you pen that or are you quoting Neville Chamberlain?

Might I point to an inconsistency in your take on the world, or at least what I assume it to be after gruelling hours of conversation.

You seem quite comfortable with the perception, forwarded by this administration and those around it, that the present point in history constitutes quite a new - and acute - set of threats and dangers necessitating serious re-evaluations of old ideas and equally serious and original responses. The "post 9/11" package, if you will.

But, by golly and by gum, there sure ain't no need to be going and looking inside to see what's a goin' on because just like ol man river, Amurica keeps on rollin along under that righteous chorus of angels singin the praises of Jesus. Sho nuff. Let's cook up some hot dogs and go watch them A-rabs get blown to smithereens.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Aug, 2006 12:39 pm
I think it is a question of degree bernie. There is indeed a political storm of sorts brewing, but in fact it is no greater than those that confronted the country in the last terms of Roosevelt, Truman, Eisenhower, Johnson, Nixon, and Clinton. There were many regrettable ramifications of those earlier events to be sure. However we did survive. Moreover a major part of each was the beginning of the inevitable political struggle for succession -- a process that brings out the worst in all the protagonists, incluiding predictions of impending doom over this or that issue. It is that aspect of the matter that was central to my point in the reply.

This doesn't mean I deny the several salient issues confronting us in the world today. It is just that we have been down this road before and the rhetoric and heat then was about the same as we are seeing now.

If you are tempted to suggest that America is now uniquely in danger of losing the respect and affection of the rest of the world, I will reply in advance that we never really had it (except for the hordes of disadvantage and oppressed who came, and still come, in great numbers.)
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Aug, 2006 01:34 pm
george

Well, I'm pleased to hear you are relaxed and that the threat from Enlightenment Radicals now recedes.

Otherwise, I agree with nothing you've just said.

I've never seen such partisan divisiveness as is evident presently in your country. And it ain't just me making the observation or claim...it is the consensus of good people in both parties who've been working in your government for decades.

As to how America is considered outside of America, poll after poll uniformly and without exception describes a broad and downward change of view, worsening every time a new poll is done.

What dangers might arise for the American Experiment? You could lose a city and everyone in it. That's possible, if unlikely. You could suffer serious economic turmoil, along with the rest of the world, from disruption of energy supplies. You could suffer a serious diminishment of your status as most wealthy and most powerful nation through changes in the balance of various factors - not right now, but fairly soon. You could face on-going and increasing costly attacks on your interests around the world, probably now likely. You could suffer the consequences, in a decade and following, of climate-change caused disorganization.

What is not at risk from any external source or agency is the loss of your sovereignty. You aren't going to be overtaken, nor is any European nation, by hordes of people with questionable racial/cultural/ideological characteristics bearing superior weaponry or tactics.

So if you fucck up and chuck out the Radical Enlightenment experiment that your nation represents, you are going to do it to yourselves in your notions of how you fit in the world and how you respond to changes. And you might do this, good intentions notwithstanding.

You aren't going to buy this, but I don't care. It needs to fall into this conversation. Suskind wrote a very astute passage in his new book on the way dictators function.
Quote:
We have a policy against terrorists, but not what might be called a dictator policy.

Save for a single unifying issue: by the fall of 2003, George W. Bush had assumed extraordinary powers to try to force various dictators to give up theirs... These changes make a dictator's traditional challenge of never "losing face" even thornier. Because their power grows from personality, duly enforced, "face" is everything. They must never be irrefutably bested by another country's champion - and, especially, of late, not bested by the "crusader" George W. Bush.


Now, it takes a pretty dull fellow to not see the parallel with how Bush himself and his administration follow this same trajectory themselves. Do not admit error. Do not allow criticism. Never, ever allow yourself, your party, your administration to "lose face".

You won't buy that, as I said. Nor will you accept as accurate what I've writter in the paragraphs above regardless of what stats I might bring to the discussion, or regardless of what commentary or argument I might bring. All is well...now is not importantly different from any other time...you hold those notions to be axiomatic.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Aug, 2006 02:23 pm
A generation ago we we faced the ever present possibility of a nuclear exchange with a well-armed Soviet Union - an empire that, at the time, was quite opaque and hard to read or predict. Moreover our interests around the globe were being continuously challenged by them. We also faced the possibility of the disruption of our oil supplies. Earlier Presidents faced Soviet post WWII expansion attempts in Greece and throughout the developing world, as well as wars, first in Korea and later in Vietnam. What would have been your contemporaneous commentary then?

Partisan divisiveness has long been a salient feature of American politics. Notwithstanding the hand-wringing of self-serving and largely ignorant pundits to the contrary, it is no worse now than it was during the Taft Eisenhower primary struggle in 1952 or the campaign against the democrat nominee, Stevenson that followed. Surely you will not suggest that the political struggles attendant to the second Administrations of Presidents Johnson and Nixon were tame compared to what is going on now. The passage of time dims the memory of past struggles: a wise interpretor of events takes that into account.

I'm not sure exactly what you have in mind with the reference to the "American radical enlightenment". While its principles were radical in 1776, they are hardly that today. Do you suggest we ought to continuously be in some kind of vanguard , leading the way like some sort of self-appointed revolutionary elite? That would be a very alien notion to the framers of the constitution. Moreover it ignores the well demonstrated ability of Europeans to take things too far themselves, without any help from us.


Interesting reference to Chamberlain, though I don't see any relevance to this debate. I'm not suggesting there are no issues in dispute today, only that they are no greater than those we have faced before, and that the political season, now as always, raises the heat at the end of a second presidential term. You sound a bit like those hated fundamentalist Christians forecasting Armageddon.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Aug, 2006 03:48 pm
george wrote:
Partisan divisiveness has long been a salient feature of American politics.

Yes, we've had partisan divisiveness in our country, but nothing compared to what Bush has created. We never had fundamental religious nuts pushing for changes in our constitution to create discrimination in our country, and pushing our schools to teach ID in our public schools along with science.

We have a president that talks about "each life is precious," but is responsible for tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi killing. Bush talks about stem cells is a life, but doesn't do anything to help the children of this country with health insurance.

Would you like for me to repeat all the lies Bush have told? I'm sure it won't be necessary, but why trust a moron who lies and doesn't give a shet about lives of Iraqis? He's the only president that has allowed the torture of our prisoners. You must be proud.
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BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Aug, 2006 02:46 am
Blotham wrote:

So if you fucck up and chuck out the Radical Enlightenment experiment that your nation represents, you are going to do it to yourselves in your notions of how you fit in the world and how you respond to changes. And you might do this, good intentions notwithstanding.


This was in response to George OB1- I note that Blatham takes an adversarial position and uses the term 'YOUR NATION". He is obviously not an American Citizen.

Since he is not and has obviously not studied or Constitution and laws for years, I consider his opinions as just bovine excrement!!!!
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BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Aug, 2006 02:50 am
George OB1 wrote in answer to Blotham:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A generation ago we we faced the ever present possibility of a nuclear exchange with a well-armed Soviet Union - an empire that, at the time, was quite opaque and hard to read or predict. Moreover our interests around the globe were being continuously challenged by them. We also faced the possibility of the disruption of our oil supplies. Earlier Presidents faced Soviet post WWII expansion attempts in Greece and throughout the developing world, as well as wars, first in Korea and later in Vietnam. What would have been your contemporaneous commentary then?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The same tired old left wing shibboleths would have been Blatham's commentary.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Aug, 2006 05:32 am
From today's Chicago Tribune (Section 2, page 3):

Quote:
PRIMARY SOURCE

Spinning all over the country


Jeff Zeleny

The economy is humming along just swimmingly, right? That's the word from the White House, which dispatched its Economic Team across the country on Friday to make that case--in triplicate. This document, sent to reporters in Washington, offers a glimpse at the lengths--hour-by-hour--to which the Bush administration has gone to flood the zone in dispensing its economic news.

So how many officials does it take to spin the fact that the unemployment rate crept to a five-month high of 4.8 percent in July? Four Cabinet secretaries, one deputy secretary, four assistant secretaries, one undersecretary, one deputy undersecretary, one deputy assistant secretary and two directors. Oh, we forgot a chairman and an administrator. In one day, their entourages traveled to 13 cities in 11 states. Is there an election around the corner?

http://i2.tinypic.com/23sygsk.jpg
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BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Aug, 2006 02:42 am
Mr. Walter Hinteler referenced an article by Jeff Zeleny in which Mr. Zeleny said, in part,
quote
So how many officials does it take to spin the fact that the unemployment rate crept to a five-month high of 4.8 percent in July?
end of quote

I am very much afraid that Mr. Zeleny did not take any Economics course in school. If he had he would have discovered that 4.8% Unemployment is classed as "full employment" WHY? Because in a nation where there are over 100 Million employed, some of them are on the move from one job to another.

But, we need to put Mr. Zeleny's comment into full perspective----

Note---the report from the Bureau of Labor Statistics




Labor Force Statistics from the Current Population Survey

Series Id: LNS14000000Seasonal AdjustedSeries title: (Seas) Unemployment RateLabor force status: Unemployment rateType of data: PercentAge: 16 years and over

Year Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Annual
2000 4.0 4.1 4.0 3.8 4.0 4.0 4.0 4.1 3.9 3.9 3.9 3.9
2001 4.2 4.2 4.3 4.4 4.3 4.5 4.6 4.9 5.0 5.3 5.5 5.7
2002 5.7 5.7 5.7 5.9 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.7 5.7 5.7 5.9 6.0
2003 5.8 5.9 5.9 6.0 6.1 6.3 6.2 6.1 6.1 6.0 5.9 5.7
2004 5.7 5.6 5.7 5.5 5.6 5.6 5.5 5.4 5.4 5.4 5.4 5.4
2005 5.2 5.4 5.1 5.1 5.1 5.0 5.0 4.9 5.1 4.9 5.0 4.9
2006 4.7 4.8 4.7 4.7 4.6 4.6 4.8

end of quote


It would appear that the Unemployment Rate has been much better( Indeed under 5.0% since November of 2005.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Aug, 2006 06:32 pm
A lovely graph from the blog Political Arithmetik, which I only just discovered, and which I'm sure will give me much of interest to read from now on:

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/436/1538/400/BushFullTerm20060809.png
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Aug, 2006 06:59 pm
With apologies for the double post (from the News on House and Senate Races thread):

-------

The Congressional Quarterly's Election Forecast map struck me as more cautious, when it comes to assessing probable change, than the NY Times map.

But the decidedly bullish mood in favour of Democrats (or against the Republicans, in any case) has moved CQ to do something it primly states it normally never does: change a bunch of its forecasts at once, "in bulk".

Quote:
Big Batch of Rating Changes Reflects Stronger Democratic Breeze

The following is a roundup of changes that CQPolitics.com is making to its forecasts of three Senate races and 15 House races. The changes are the result of a thorough review of all races that we've done as part of an elections overview that will be published in the Aug. 14 issue of CQ Weekly and subsequently on CQPolitics.com.

These forecast changes are the result of a one-time systematic examination of all the races at a key moment in the campaign. They are not the result of any single piece of new information. We generally prefer not to issue ratings changes in bulk.

The ratings changes below include summaries of the reasoning behind each switch. Stories containing more detailed explanations will follow in the coming days.

Read on...
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Aug, 2006 07:13 pm
Walter,
You do realize that the unemployment rate NEVER dropped below 5% when Clinton was President.
That was classified by the dems as a great economy.
Now,its under 5% and its a bad economy??
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Aug, 2006 07:33 pm
MM. I'm guessing that the issue is not, per se, the current rate of unemployment but rather the attempted obscuring of data showing that the unemplyment rate is rising.
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Aug, 2006 12:25 am
And your proof for that is?
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BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Aug, 2006 12:29 am
Yes, Mr. Nimh--Life is change. Things can change very quickly-

You wrote:


quote

The Congressional Quarterly's Election Forecast map struck me as more cautious, when it comes to assessing probable change, than the NY Times map.

But the decidedly bullish mood in favour of Democrats (or against the Republicans, in any case) has moved CQ to do something it primly states it normally never does: change a bunch of its forecasts at once, "in bulk".

Quote:
Big Batch of Rating Changes Reflects Stronger Democratic Breeze

The following is a roundup of changes that CQPolitics.com is making to its forecasts of three Senate races and 15 House races. The changes are the result of a thorough review of all races that we've done as part of an elections overview that will be published in the Aug. 14 issue of CQ Weekly and subsequently on CQPolitics.com.

These forecast changes are the result of a one-time systematic examination of all the races at a key moment in the campaign. They are not the result of any single piece of new information. We generally prefer not to issue ratings changes in bulk.

The ratings changes below include summaries of the reasoning behind each switch. Stories containing more detailed explanations will follow in the coming days.

end of quote


Please be so good as to reference Congressional Quarterly's Forecast Map at the end of this week and the end of the next week--I am sure that it will change!

THE ATTEMPT OF THE MURDEROUS ISLAMIC FANATICS TO KILL PEOPLE WAS THWARTED BY THE BRITISH, THE US and THE PAKASTANI-using the dreaded phone taps, of course, and provisions from the wicked Patriot Act!!!
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Aug, 2006 06:44 pm
BernardR wrote:
Please be so good as to reference Congressional Quarterly's Forecast Map at the end of this week and the end of the next week--I am sure that it will change!

THE ATTEMPT OF THE MURDEROUS ISLAMIC FANATICS TO KILL PEOPLE WAS THWARTED BY THE BRITISH, THE US and THE PAKASTANI-using the dreaded phone taps, of course, and provisions from the wicked Patriot Act!!!

Dear Bernard,

You asked me two weeks ago "to reference Congressional Quarterly's Forecast Map at the end of this week and the end of the next week", as you were sure it would change after the news of the thwarted terrorist plot.

CQ has however not changed any of its estimations in the past two weeks.
0 Replies
 
 

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