2
   

Okay...let's see...where was I...

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jun, 2005 09:20 am
Absolute abject silliness from people who cannot summon up the courage, honesty, and integrity to answer the question "What is the true nature of REALITY?"...with "I do not know....and the evidence available is too ambiguous to make a meaningful, reasonable guess about it."

Anyway...it is pleasant to see that most of the professed atheists in this forum are actually just agnostics without, as I already mentioned, the courage, honesty, and integrity to acknowledge their agnosticism.

You pretend atheists really ought to go out into the world and ask people who are not engaged in these kinds of discussions....what they think the words "atheist" and "agnostic" mean.

You might do just as well to go to a dictionary.

Here is the Merriam Webster on-line definition of atheist:


Main Entry: athe·ist
Pronunciation: 'A-thE-ist
Function: noun
: one who believes that there is no deity
- athe·is·tic /"A-thE-'is-tik/ or athe·is·ti·cal /"A-thE-'is-ti-k&l/ adjective
- athe·is·ti·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb


Here is its definition of agnostic:

Main Entry: 1ag·nos·tic
Pronunciation: ag-'näs-tik, &g-
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek agnOstos unknown, unknowable, from a- + gnOstos known, from gignOskein to know -- more at KNOW
: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
- ag·nos·ti·cism /-t&-"si-z&m/ noun
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jun, 2005 09:23 am
I have plenty of guts, Frank. I do not, though, have a smidge of belief in god or gods.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jun, 2005 09:26 am
ossobuco wrote:
I have plenty of guts, Frank.


I'm sure you do....and I did not accuse you of not having them.


Quote:
I do not, though, have a smidge of belief in god or gods.


Neither do I.

What is your point?
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  2  
Reply Fri 17 Jun, 2005 09:41 am
Frank
Frank, your bombastic style is only hurting YOUR arguments.

I think, friend, that you need to be less bellicose if you want to be more successful in expressing your opinions.

Being arrogant and dogmatic does not prove your points.

I've always thought you to be too smart to make that mistake---unless your intent is to provoke hostility rather than understanding.

OK, Frank, which is it?

BBB Smile
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jun, 2005 09:46 am
Re: Frank
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
Being arrogant and dogmatic does not prove your points.

I think deep down he's very self-conscious and shy, so he's hiding behind the hair on his chest. Smile
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jun, 2005 09:49 am
I gather from years of reading your posts (god help me) that you consider atheism, agnosticism, and theism to all be belief systems. I insist that describing myself as an atheist is to say that I am void of belief in god or gods, and that in so doing I am not harboring a belief system.

I also don't care what Merriam is thinking on the matter.


My point, Frank, in saying I have guts and that I do not have a smidge of belief in god or gods, in that sequence, was directed to this sentence of yours.

"Atheists....at least the ones with any guts....insist there are no gods." I don't "insist". That would take me into a belief system, and as I mention, I don't subscribe to a belief system re gods.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jun, 2005 10:26 am
I went looking for whether there was something between "agnostic" and "atheist", as at least "atheist" seems to have two distinct sub-categories -- came up with this, kind of interesting:

Quote:
As with many definitions, the meaning of the words "atheist" and "agnostic" are difficult to pin down, and they mean different things to different people in different contexts. Let's start with some basic dictionary definitions.
The American Heritage Dictionary defines an "atheist" as "one who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods." An "agnostic" is "one who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God" or "one who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism." This dictionary also notes that 19th-century British scientist Thomas H. Huxley invented the word "agnostic."

Huxley was an ardent Darwinist who used "agnostic" to describe his attitude toward religion. He wrote: "Agnosticism, in fact, is not a creed, but a method." This method of thought advocates that people "do not pretend that conclusions are certain which are not demonstrated or demonstrable." An agnostic doesn't necessarily believe or disbelieve in a god -- he or she doesn't profess to know if there's a god at all. Huxley's writings may also suggest that it's impossible to ever know if a god exists or not.

Atheism is a little simpler to understand and is basically defined as a disbelief in any god. However, atheists themselves hold varied beliefs that generally fall into two main camps. "Weak atheism" is a lack of belief in a god. "Strong atheism" is a belief that no god exists and cannot exist. To compare the two, a weak atheist might say, "Gods might exist, but I don't worship them." Whereas a strong atheist might say, "It is impossible for any gods to exist, so there's no reason to believe in the idea." Neither believes in a god, but only the strong atheist denies the existence of gods.

Atheist and agnostic aren't interchangeable terms, but they can overlap. Occasionally, people use "agnostic" as a more socially acceptable word for "atheist." This usage irritates some atheists. They think that agnosticism is just a subset of atheism because agnostics generally do not believe in gods. Some feel that using "agnostic" in this way reinforces the incorrect idea that all atheism is strong atheism.


http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20030527.html

I don't like the "weak" and "strong" terminolgy, as it falls into line too closely with Frank's "guts" terminology (which I also disagree with.) But it makes some allowance for and gives a name to the difference between agnostics and two different kinds of atheists.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jun, 2005 10:26 am
Quote:
one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god


This definition depends on how "commit" is defined. If you judge commitment by what you or others do, then we're all committed, by default. If commitment means, you'd never change your mind, no matter what evidence or logical argument presented to you, then I'm committed to nothing.

I live by what I believe, and it seems to me to be impossible to be without a belief about anything, as long as you're living and long as your brain function for thinking and feeling are still intact. One can be committed to insisting that one does not know, as Frank is. But my position is more that you have to consider the probability and history of a story or truth claim before you put much energy into investigating it.

I think there's lots of evidence provided by the theory of evolution as a much more likely story than the creation one. It seems to fit with my experience in the world. I'm wary of stories that involve one true anything. In my experience, it's a mistake to assume any one or anything is perfect, no matter how much you wish to believe. It is the antithesis of science. Are we not arguing over semantics?

So I'm not arguing with you Frank that we don't know. Of course we don't know, as I've said too many times now. But the point for me here is, how likely is the truth claim to be true? One theory is not as good as another in terms of plausibility.

You keep arguing with me as if I've said otherwise.

Once more, I know we can't know anything. But I consider the God question and it's many metaphorical stories to be not worthy of scientific consideration. As analogy, they work fine, depending on the interpretation. And interpretations of these stories are many and varied.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jun, 2005 10:35 am
ossobuco wrote:
I gather from years of reading your posts (god help me) that you consider atheism, agnosticism, and theism to all be belief systems. I insist that describing myself as an atheist is to say that I am void of belief in god or gods, and that in so doing I am not harboring a belief system.



I most assuredly do not consider agnosticsim....which is merely acknowledgement that one does not know....to be a "belief system."

Theism...and almost all of atheism except for the atheists who are agnostics but who don't have what it takes to acknowledge that they are...are "belief systems."

Obviously...if a person says, "I believe there is a God"....that is a "belief system." If a person says, "I believe there are no gods"....that is a "belief system."



[quote[
My point, Frank, in saying I have guts and that I do not have a smidge of belief in god or gods, in that sequence, was directed to this sentence of yours.

"Atheists....at least the ones with any guts....insist there are no gods." I don't "insist". That would take me into a belief system, and as I mention, I don't subscribe to a belief system re gods.[/quote]

Perhaps you are not an atheist.

You said you do not care what the dictionary says.

So...using that reasoning....you can call yourself a giraffe if you choose.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  2  
Reply Fri 17 Jun, 2005 10:38 am
According to the American Heritage Dictionary, it is a belief system, Frank -- a belief that it is impossible to know whether there is a god.

Perhaps you're actually a weak athiest after all... ;-)
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jun, 2005 10:42 am
sozobe wrote:
I went looking for whether there was something between "agnostic" and "atheist", as at least "atheist" seems to have two distinct sub-categories -- came up with this, kind of interesting:

Quote:
As with many definitions, the meaning of the words "atheist" and "agnostic" are difficult to pin down, and they mean different things to different people in different contexts. Let's start with some basic dictionary definitions.


I agree with this so far.


Quote:
The American Heritage Dictionary defines an "atheist" as "one who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods." An "agnostic" is "one who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God" or "one who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism."


I disagree with that definition of agnostic.


Quote:
This dictionary also notes that 19th-century British scientist Thomas H. Huxley invented the word "agnostic."

Huxley was an ardent Darwinist who used "agnostic" to describe his attitude toward religion. He wrote: "Agnosticism, in fact, is not a creed, but a method." This method of thought advocates that people "do not pretend that conclusions are certain which are not demonstrated or demonstrable." An agnostic doesn't necessarily believe or disbelieve in a god -- he or she doesn't profess to know if there's a god at all. Huxley's writings may also suggest that it's impossible to ever know if a god exists or not.


No problem with this.


Quote:
Atheism is a little simpler to understand and is basically defined as a disbelief in any god. However, atheists themselves hold varied beliefs that generally fall into two main camps. "Weak atheism" is a lack of belief in a god. "Strong atheism" is a belief that no god exists and cannot exist. To compare the two, a weak atheist might say, "Gods might exist, but I don't worship them." Whereas a strong atheist might say, "It is impossible for any gods to exist, so there's no reason to believe in the idea." Neither believes in a god, but only the strong atheist denies the existence of gods.

Yeah...the "weak atheists" are actually agnostics who want to use the word atheist to describe themselves apparently because they have no self-confidence.



Quote:
Atheist and agnostic aren't interchangeable terms, but they can overlap.


Absolutely.

I do not believe in God.

That does not make me an atheist.

"Not believing in god"...is one of the areas where we overlap.



Quote:

Occasionally, people use "agnostic" as a more socially acceptable word for "atheist." This usage irritates some atheists. They think that agnosticism is just a subset of atheism because agnostics generally do not believe in gods. Some feel that using "agnostic" in this way reinforces the incorrect idea that all atheism is strong atheism.


Whatever. If you are going to describe yourself as an atheist....you really should be the kind of atheist Edgar is....one who actively asserts a belief that there are no gods.

If you are going to be an agnostic....use that word to describe yourself...or accept the laughter that comes your way.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jun, 2005 10:45 am
I've said what I had to say. I'm getting off the cycle.
Y'all have a nice day.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jun, 2005 10:48 am
sozobe wrote:
According to the American Heritage Dictionary, it is a belief system, Frank -- a belief that it is impossible to know whether there is a god.

Perhaps you're actually a weak athiest after all... ;-)


I said I disagree with that definition.

No agnostic worth his or her salt would suggest that it is "impossible to know" if there is a God.

IT MOST ASSUREDLY IS IMPOSSIBLE TO KNOW IF THERE ARE NO GODS....SO THE ATHEISTS ARE ON WEAKER GROUNDS THAN THEISTS IN THIS AREA.

But if there is a GOD...and if the GOD wanted us to know that it exists...IT MOST DEFINITELY COULD LET US KNOW.

So far, I have seen absolutely no evidence that any god has actually attempted to let us know. (The Bible is a joke!)

Perhaps that is because there are no gods.

Perhaps that is because there are gods...but they don't much give a shyt whether we know about them or not.

Perhaps tht is because there are gods...but they definitely don't want us to know.

I don't know.

I DO NOT KNOW.

If you don't know also....why not start describing yourself as an agnostic.

Agnosticism is spiritually, rationally, intelligently, truthfully, and philosophically superior to both theism and atheism.

Let's hear it for agnosticism.

The potential salvation of humanity....the planet....and perhaps the universe.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jun, 2005 10:51 am
GIMME AN "A".

GIMME A "G."

GIMME A "N."

GIMME AN "O.'

GIMME A "S."

GIMME A "T."

GIMME AN "I."

GIMME A "C."

GIMME AN "I."

GIMME AN "S.'

GIMME A "M."



WHATTA YA GOT!


AGNOTICISM.


Way ta go.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  2  
Reply Fri 17 Jun, 2005 11:07 am
Frank Apisa wrote:
Perhaps you are not an atheist.

You said you do not care what the dictionary says.

So...using that reasoning....you can call yourself a giraffe if you choose.


Frank Apisa wrote:
I disagree with that [dictionary] definition of agnostic.


*cough*
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  2  
Reply Fri 17 Jun, 2005 11:18 am
so now we're disagreeing about definitions. It's all a matter of interpretation anyway......so let's live and let.

Who cares what we call it? I'll live my life as if there's no god until I see evidence that indicates I should look further....until then, the subject is uninteresting to me.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jun, 2005 11:20 am
The more I read, the more I think that a whole bunch of us here are weak atheists (I might like "negative atheist" better though):

Quote:
Weak atheism or negative atheism is the lack of belief in any God or gods, without a positive denial of the existence of any god or gods. Weak atheism contrasts with strong atheism, which asserts that gods do not exist, and theism, which asserts that there is at least one god. The weak atheist generally gives a broad definition of atheism as "lack or absence of belief in god or gods", which defines atheism as a range of positions that entail non-belief, disbelief, doubt, or denial of theism. A narrower definition of atheism as "denial of the existence of gods" is also in common use. Those who favor this definition prefer to use other terms, such as agnosticism, for skepticism of or non-belief in theism.

Some weak atheists may simply hold no opinion on the existence or non-existence of God or gods. Others may find arguments on both sides of the question equally compelling. Yet others may doubt or disbelieve the existence of God or gods, being unconvinced by the evidence or proofs put forward by theists, but hold that it is not currently known whether or not gods exist.

The position that it is not known whether God or gods exists is called weak agnosticism. A stronger position is strong agnosticism, the view that it is not possible ever to know whether God or gods exist or not. Agnosticism, in both strong and weak forms, is not necessarily an atheist position; it is a position regarding what is known, and can be known, about the existence of God or gods. A theist can also take the position that he does not know (and if a strong agnostic, cannot know) whether God or gods exist, although he believes it, through faith.

Weak atheists often argue that their position is the default one; that it is not known whether or not gods exist (and if the strong agnostics are right, can never be known); that neither theists nor strong atheists fulfill their burden of proof; and that theists and strong atheists therefore rely on faith. For these weak atheists, beliefs which cannot be fully justified and which rest on faith are untenable, making both theism and atheism untenable.

For more on the debate between strong and weak atheism, consult the article on strong atheism. See also the articles on agnosticism, weak agnosticism, strong agnosticism.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weak_atheist

Links for weak agnosticism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weak_agnosticism

Strong agnosticism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong_agnosticism

Strong atheist:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong_atheism
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jun, 2005 11:27 am
Quote:
Weak Atheism

The weak atheist position does not need a justification - it is the default position. One should not accept a position unless there is some rational reason for supposing it true. For a weak atheist it is sufficient to say: "I don't know what a god is", or "I have never heard of a god". Unless theism can be proved in some way, the weak atheist position is the preferred position. This is often confused with agnosticism.


Quote:
All popular definitions of agnosticism are unhistorical, and ignore the definition laid out by TH Huxley. Huxley was the person who coined the term in the 19th century, and he defined it thus:

    "Agnosticism, in fact, is not a creed, but a method, the essence of which lies in the rigorous application of a single principle. That principle is of great antiquity; it is as old as Socrates; as old as the writer who said, "Try all things, hold fast by that which is good" it is the foundation of the Reformation, which simply illustrated the axiom that every man should be able to give a reason for the faith that is in him; it is the great principle of Descartes; it is the fundamental axiom of modern science. Positively the principle may be expressed In matters of the intellect, follow your reason as far as it will take you, without regard to any other consideration. And negatively In matters of the intellect do not pretend that conclusions are certain which are not demonstrated or demonstrable. [b]That I take to be the agnostic faith[/b], which if a man keep whole and undefiled, he shall not be ashamed to look the universe in the face, whatever the future may have in store for him." (TH Huxley, Agnosticism, 1889)


Both from:

http://www.update.uu.se/~fbendz/atheism/definitions.html

Note the line about agnostic faith, from the guy who coined the term...
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jun, 2005 11:27 am
All of these definitions depend on the assumption that the god story is worth investigating. (not that definitions aren't usefu) But I think the question of plausibility of the assumptions behind the definitions is where the emphasis in this discussion should be, as I think Thomas and Set have agreed.

How plausibile is the story? What's the history of the idea? Has it ever had any basis in scientific fact?

Does eating the blossoms of african violets every third Thursday cure cancer or improve vision? Should we conduct experiements to prove this is not so? I haven't the time. Others are welcome to try.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jun, 2005 11:31 am
C'mon, Lola. Gimme a break.

Earlier you wrote:

Quote:
It (the assertion that there are no gods) would only be a guess if there were no criteria to base it on....and since there is a lot of that then I can't call it a guess.


WHAT IS THIS CRITERIA?

You claim you've got lots of it.

I've asked you to put it out here...others have also.

You've talked about the "plausibility" and "probability" of the existence of gods as though you have lots of solid evidence upon which to base plausibility/probability estimtes.

Other than "they cannot produce their gods"; "I see no gods"; and "we do not need gods for existence to exist"...none of which are arguments that there are no gods....what else do you have.

Produce anything.

ANYTHING.

Otherwise stop with the nonsense that you don't care.

We've had conversations where you have....seriously...indicated that you think the atheistic position is superior to the agnostic position. That, in fact, is the reason for this thread.

What is going on?




GO AGNOSTICS! THEISM HAS TO BE BROUGHT UNDER CONTROL....AND THE ATHEISTS ARE MORE A HINDERANCE THAN A HELP IN THAT REGARD.
0 Replies
 
 

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