Antiwar protests.

au, I understand where you are coming from and I respect you for it, I also know that the vast majority of the protesters (if not all) respect the fighting men and do not in any way blame the war on them knowing they must follow orders. The protesting is against the leaders -

After the hostilities start, the protestersare the only balance, the Senators and Congressman have to maintain a very tight control -

Without protesting, we may still be in Viet Nam! There was a great deal of protesting then that was directed at the man in the field, those lessons have thankfully been learned. This, of course, is IMHO!

au

No, the choices didn't end there. Should Iraqi civilians cease making choices now that the war has started? Should German civilians or Japanese civilians 60 years past have ceased making choices? It's a bad argument because it is an authoritarian stance and not a democratic stance.

PDiddie

That is about as repugnant as things get, is it not. Here on CBS news, the background title behind war coverage says "Attack on Iraq".

"Attack on Iraq" is probably the only truth coming out of the networks. c.i.

Michael Moore (show-boater for sure) is planning a new film: the connection between the bin Ladens and the Bushes. http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,925548,00.html

Tartarin

That's very funny. I did note earlier your comment on the poignancy of Ike's warning. I find myself utterly befuddled as to why this notion, forwarded by a military hero and a Republican president for goodness sakes, is so shallowly engaged in US public debate. I dare not imagine, out of concern for my emotional well-being, how invisible it might be were it not for a few folks like Chompsky.

Blatham:

You're befuddled! We are bothered and bewildered! The number of people that just accept the Bush scenario without question are indeed troubling. Now that we are in Iraq will many start to ask the questions that should have been debated? I am disgusted.

Just attempting to gauge the depth of your disgust, au.

For the record, which IYO is worse--the war or the protests against it?

Don't cop out and say 'both'...

Piddle
Two separate and distinct questions. I was not and have never have been in favor of the attack nor am I in favor of the protests once it began. There is no better or worse.

?

Please note that the above response is only a possible answer to the question you posed. From some of the reports that I have heard it is not far from the truth. That may conflict with what you would like to believe but conceder that according to the polls the majority of the American public supports the war in Iraq. Based on that how do you think they view protesters

An unartful dodge, au.

Of course, you've made your answer plain already.

Your inconvenience is worse than others' death.

Now if you would like to contend that, go for it.

Now to your (loaded) question:

I strongly doubt that "a majority of Americans (you said 'people', so I'm giving your argument the benefit of the doubt by decreasing the sample size here) are disgusted by the protestors". So no, there is not that possibility, IMO.

And I would expect that supporting the war as well as supporting one of the things the soldiers are fighting for--freedom of speech--are not inversely related (but I have been repeatedly disillusioned about this recently).

So, more directly to your question, why would you think anyone with the courage to protest this government's actions would in the end be motivated by what others think about their actions?

Sticking with those words...it takes a great deal of offensiveness to motivate people to take to the streets in this day and age. And those that do so overcome (what you think is) an important barrier: "what will people think".

I'm reminded that my mother used to say how important it was to have a good reputation. "Your good name," she'd say.

How is it that objecting publicly to one's government is unsavory? To many this is the strongest declaration of citizenship.

Your thread on this topic elsewhere in the forum has a great many assumptions to be challenged--not the least of which is your opening contention, that the protestors are terrorists.

Offensive and inaccurate, that one is. (Whoops, I ended a sentence with a preposition...)

VNN and Blatham -- I think many Americans have been bought and paid for. That's why the protests are so astonishing and so good. It shows that more people (certainly more than I expected!) value freedom of expression, independent thinking, and are more than wary of the Big Lie. In my view, much of the struggle between points of view in these discussions is really a struggle between those who have bought the party line and those who haven't -- or better, those who have been bought (probably unwittingly) and those who haven't. Considering the people-buying power of our giant merchandisers (in government, media, and the private sector), it's pretty amazing!

PDiddie
Why bother to ask a question when you know all the answers?
The next time you ask one you should include a list of answers that are acceptable. IMO these protests are inappropriate at this point in time.
There have been some articles and statements made by leaders of the anti war movement that the disruptive protests are becoming counter productive.

I hope your mother also told you there are two sides to every story and to listen you might learn something.

Indefensible argument, so resort to ad hominem.

You're better than this, au.

Au -- Could you expand on your idea that the protests are inappropriate "at this time"? I ask because I'm trying to see this from your point of view. Given that there have always been protests of one kind or another in earlier wartimes, I guess that's not your primary concern?

I'm not referring to protests which go bad (as opposed to being disruptive) but just doing, say, what I was doing a few weeks back, just walking around a courthouse quietly with a large, diverse, quiet group, holding signs. Would that be inappropriate during a time of war?

I would like to take to of your statements au and put them together:

Quote 1:



Quote 2:



IMHO, because of Quote 2 (which I consider to be a misaligned judge of the majority) then Quote 1 is wrong. The only way the majority will hear the truth is through protest.

I also agree with your quote:



and deplore "bad" protests; but not as much as I deplore "bad"/stupid wars---

Therein lies the dilemmas.

PDiddie

Sorry I don't know what it is you would like to hear. I believe that they [the protests] are inappropriate at this time. That is my opinion which I believe i am entittled to voice. I should add that I am not alone in that opinion. To continue this discussion would simply be an exercise in futility, rather than continue this discussion the time has come to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Here's my observation: governments at the state and local level are complaining that these demonstrations against the war is costing them too much. Actually, it's not costing enough! When we balance what this war is costing in lives and billions, our freedom to demonstrate becomes much more important. c.i.

c.i., as I said earlier, it is also the only balance of the truth!

BillW
Quote one is wrong? Are you trying to say I am not entitled to an opinion?
Quote two is based on the polls which over whelming support the war.
Quote three is based on statements made by more than a few leaders of the antiwar movements which I will assume you have seen as well.



Your Truth? That is an arrogant statement don't you think.

I think that the protests merely give succor to Saddam and fill him with the hope that they will wear down American resolve to continue. Which would be IMO a disaster. Further that they will negatively impact the moral of the troops that are in harms way. Were I in that situation the last thing I would want to hear is that the American people are not behind us.

au

Of course you have every right to voice your opinion that protests during war are inappropriate. Those of us protesting request merely the same right, to voice our opinions. We are as resistant to suggestions we ought not to as are you.

I understand you have made your argument a lot of times previously to right here right now. But so have we others.

blatham

Of course you have every right to voice your opinion that protests during war are inappropriate.

If only that were so.